torger

I'm a recreational cyclist that like to build up my own bikes from (mostly) second hand parts. I care more about ride quality and looks than racing performance. One of my bikes is a Colnago Master, which I've built up with a retro/modern look, carbon fork, seatpost and cranks. Now it has a pair of Campagnolo Neutron Ultra alloy wheels. They look good on the bike, but I thought it would be even cooler with a set of carbon rims, specifically Corima WS 32mm the 2018 version with the chrome hubs and polished steel spokes (they changed to all black look for 2019). I like the look of the sparse lacing pattern on those too.

Now these carbon wheels in clincher version weigh about the same as the campy alloy wheels. They are a little bit more aero with the rounded 32mm profile, but that's not that important for me. Rim-braking performance which I suppose is going to be worse won't be a problem as the style of riding I do don't require much braking at all. What would be a plus though is if they provide a more comfortable ride, as I use this bike for long weekend rides. I've never ridden carbon wheels so I don't know what to expect. When I have compared an old-school aluminium frame with a more recent carbon frame I do find a significant comfort difference, the latter dampening the road buzz and bumps more effectively, while still feeling very stiff. It would be great if this type of mid-profile carbon wheels could be expected to provide a similar improvement over alloy wheels. My suspicion though is that the difference is not going to be as large. It would be nice to hear from someone which have tested similar combinations back to back.

WhyFi

IME, the only way they're be more comfortable is if the rims are wider and they allow you to run the same tires at slightly lower pressure.

joesch

A Colnago Master with Campagnolo Neutron Ultra alloy wheels is an awesome ride for recreation.
I have these wheels on my Colnago and will not upgrade until they are shot.
Full carbon wheels are not going to make your ride with carbon fork, seatpost and crank much different, you may feel a slight diff but I doubt you will gain any speed or comfort.

torger

Good point about the tires, I forgot about that. I do run a bit lower pressure as is common these days. I run 25s though as 28 is a bit of a squeeze into the old frame, I haven't tried but I suspect it will rub on the inside of the chainstays. Anyway soft 25s are so much more comfortable that hard 23s (which was what I rode 10 years ago).

On the width of the Neutrons vs the Corimas I guess it depends on which model year I get. I think they will be comparable in width though, and I will be running 25s due to space limitation in the frame (and looks ) so I think tire-wise they will be quite close.

I still see reviewers of wheels talk about comfort and "vertical compliance" as a property of the wheel itself. So I just thought it should be some sort of difference, but maybe softer tires eat it all up?

I see people get a more compliant frame to get a more comfortable ride. I've done some frame comparisons (using same wheels/pressure) and found not huge but meaningful differences, so I believe in that. About wheels I don't really know if you can get more or less comfortable wheels, or if everything is about the same, hence my question.

I guess if I would take a budget overbuilt high profile wheel and compare to a lightweight high end low profile wheel there would be a difference in compliance. But in this case I'm comparing a high end alloy wheel with a fairly high end mid-profile carbon wheel, maybe they are really close. Put in other words, maybe it's hard to improve on low profile alloy if you're not interested in lighter weight or more aero?

Campag4life

Have to be a bit careful about stereotypes of wheels and yes, tires and pressure is a bigger factor but wheels vary in stiffness certainly even with same materials.
One thought is...deep carbon wheels...many believe are stiffer than say more traditionally shaped wheels for a couple of reasons. Deeper vertical wall doesn't flex like a more pliable shorter aluminum wall supported by spokes...and spoke length. Shorter spokes are more rigid on taller section carbon wheels.

I suppose spoke count is in the mix as well.

Rob aka Psimet...would be great to hear from on this subject and hopefully he will post his expert thoughts.

Carverbiker

Litespud

You built a Colnago Master without the chromed straight fork? What madness is this?

torger

actually the skinny carbon Colnago Flash fork is original with the frame, it was quite common to mix carbon and steel. Indeed the chromed fork makes for a more beautiful bike, but I think the mix is kind of cool too and it's original for this particular specimen. Below is an image of how it looks currently. What I'm actually least pleased with is not the fork, but the hefty stack of spacers. This bike is not a museum piece though, it's made to ride for hours and my flexibility is, well, limited. The Colnago Master bikes have longer head tubes than most other frames of the era, and I deliberately use a big Rudelli headset so it could be worse. I like to be able to use the drops and I'd say it looks worse in a photo than in real life (a frame originally made for a quill stem should have some spacers). However I've ridden more last season so I've become more comfortable at lower and longer positions so I'm actually going to bring it closer to my racing position and lengthen the stem from 11 to 12 cm and lower it a bit for the coming season, which will make the proportions look a bit better in photos too

As seen I use some other modern bits and pieces like a compact handlebar. I like to see the bike as one upgraded over the years to just continue to ride well. These old steel frames are really comfortable even with modern standards, but many of the older components are not that great in terms of comfort and ergonomics. I bought the frame and most other bits second hand. The frame paintwork was in quite bad shape in places so I've touched it up, I'm rather pleased with the result. Looking closely one can see that it has been ridden hard though, which for me is a plus as I can bring this bike into some gravel roads on my long rides and not worry. Which by the way is a good reason to keep alloy wheels, but if I do get carbon wheels I will keep the alloy as extras for tougher rides and worse weather.

Campag4life

Wow, pre 2009 Campy. Colnago's have such distinctive paint work. Beautiful.
If the paint is good on the bike, I wouldn't take it near a gravel road...me personally.

A finer point is...I often see a handlebar set up like yours on amateur bikes. To me and expressing my opinion, without even seeing you on the bike, the handlebar should be closer and rotated forward properly so that the hoods are flatter and the hook is much more supportive when using the drops. Your set up isn't how the handlebar designer intended..which maybe ok for you...but drops are so much more comfortable when the hook is more horizontal.

PS: took a minute for a quick photoshop in the event you want to place the handlebar as it was more intended. A suggestion and only that is...shorten the stem by 1cm or and rotate the handlebar down. Unwrap the bar tape to the shifter and then push the shifters back on the handlebar. A quick pic showing you how it would look.

What this does is place the bar a bit closer and a hint more under you. A little know fact about bike set up, many that rotate their hoods back into a pistol position...is mostly born out of the handlebar being too high and away from the rider. Not what the intent of shifter hood design is. This rotated bar position also places the drops farther away from you horizontally. A common position you show increases body tension because you have to hold onto the drops tighter..like holding onto a vine. This in effect subtracts energy to ride the bike. Instead the hook should be more under the palm of the hand. Hope that makes sense.

torger

I've swapped out one piece on the campy groupset (which is from 2008), I use older chainrings which are plain shiny alloy which match better with the chrome, than the 2008 chainrings which have a brownish surface treatment. The paint really looks better in this photo than it really is. It's quite okay on the top tube, almost flawless on the drive side, some scratches on the other side which I've patched up. It was pretty bashed up on the down tube. I've patched it up with enamel paints, so no strong solvents may be used when cleaning this bike . It has a couple of minor dents too, but nothing serious. I got the frameset for ~€450/$500 which was what it was worth in the condition it was I would say. I checked the serial with the factory and it was manufactured in 2002.

On the drop bar angle I agree with you, but as I see it you can't optimize fit for both drops and hoods position simultaneously. I do spend quite some time with fit, and promise myself to never sacrifice fit for style even if it's hard sometimes -- I'd love to have a youngster or elite racer flexibility and adaptation but I don't, so I can't have those positions. This means that style will suffer a bit, but as long as it gives me a nicer ride I'm okay with it. I often see fellow riders have so aggressive fits on their bikes that they can't really use it fully; when they use the drops they don't get any lower, they just stretch their arms more. I don't think that is a good approach either.

For best comfort in the wrists when in the hoods position I think the bar needs to be angled up slightly, which does make the ergonomics in the drops a bit worse. It's a trade-off. With a perfectly horizontal bar and optimized lever reach in the drops, the hoods position will not be as comfortable. Indeed it's a position for amateurs, but for a good reason, as I do spend most of the time in the hoods, this is my "endurance" ride after all. I'm in the drops only for pushing through in a headwind or some occasional speed play with mates. I think the drops ergonomics is okay, when holding near the hook ends the upward angle is rather nice actually, what is worse though is the position in the drops when holding the levers, but it works and the trade-off for better hoods comfort is worth it I think.

On the closeness I'm not sure I understand. I don't think the stem should be very short. Old-school handlebars had longer reach than these compact ones so I think it's natural to combine with a longer stem. For a modern bike it's normal as it's only 11 cm, but I'm increasing it to 12 now. It's for the fit anyway so I need this length. I could fit on a larger frame, this is a 54 and I'd say my range on the master is 54 to 56, 55 is probably the best size, 56 will be pushing it on standover height not the least.

torger

I wrote the above before your edit with the photoshop example. Thanks for the effort . I think I understand what you mean now, simply increase the seat to handlebar drop and reduce the horizontal reach. I may actually try that, I have had that type of setup before on another bike, but I have worked towards more reach and less drop as I feel I get more room on the bike. It feels better for me when climbing and sprinting not having the handlebar too close. Maybe I have taken it too far. I don't think the shifters can be pushed further back on the bar though, they are as far back as is reasonable already. I'm not even sure if I have this rotation on the bars any longer, but I'll have a look as I plan to make a fit review soon, I'll keep your feedback in fresh memory and do some experiments.

I do think that us "hunchbacks" need a bit different trade-offs than more flexible riders though. What we have is shorter effective reach and a close handlebar can then become really close, it can become a bit cramped.

On fitting my own bikes I'm super-confident one day and super-insecure the other, and I'm constantly fiddling with it. You surely got in touch with my insecure side now...

One thing with that fork is that it's actually lengthened with a BBB steerer extender as it was a bit too short for me. As it's only a couple of centimeters extension active it's stiff enough. It makes the bike 150 grams heavier though (grand total is about 8,1 kg, not too bad for a steel bike), but I have the advantage that I can fiddle with fork length without having the angst of cutting the steerer.

Campag4life

You make many good points but you can have both a good hood and drop position simultaneously. Reach is the aggregate of horizontal and vertical components. Your issue is...you bar is too high and too far away. Remember...the 'resultant' of height and horizontal distance...the hypotenuse of this triangle is what reach is...not just handlebar height. With your bar height, you need to cant your bars back. Not so with lower bar where it is closer in and more below you. With a lower bar, hand ergonomics change\].

Perform a simple experiment as you read this. Put your right hand out as you were to shake somebodies' hand. Notice your forearm is horizontal to the ground. Now stand and let your arms hand. Notice your hand position is pointing down. Campy...and other hoods are designed for the forearms to point a hint more down than out. In your position, with your high handlebar your arms point out. Your hand is connected to your forearm With your bar position out and farther away from your body, you have to rotate your bars back to be comfortable because your horizonal forearm wrist position dictates it. You are conflating reach with merely bar height. No. Its the resultant. If you lower the handlebar by 4 inches and place it next to your crotch, your back angle will be even more upright...you will have reduced reach with a lower handlebar.

Hope above makes sense. What you are doing is as common as the day is long. You are robbing Peter to pay Paul for your fit. For a good rider, the drops are a go to position. I am old and ride them all the time. One of the reasons is...they aren't far away horizontally and the hook is horizontal and supports my hands without hand tension which frees up my upper body for best riding.

Stem length can vary between 80 to 120mm and not destroy handling of the bike. I asked Sheldon Brown this question years ago and that was his response.

Good luck. Many people believe they need a special fit. What they really need is a good fit.

Campag4life

You don't have to be a hunchback. You need to work on your position and rotate your hips at the saddle and straighten your lumbar which will require you need more and not less reach. Your effective back length become shorter when it is curved. Posture on the bike should be similar to the posture of a good swimmer in the water or someone with good posture walking down the street.

superdex

+500 points for bike on kitchen table.

torger

My issue is not that the bar is too high and too far away. My issue is that people give unrelated unsolicited advice

The bar rotation is there because I find it comfortable, and I don't find it too detrimental for the drops position. The rotation would be there even if I put it 1 cm closer and 1 cm lower, well maybe one degree less due to the slightly changed angle, it would still be too much for the style police.

If I could mount the hoods higher on the bar I would not need to rotate it as much to get the same comfort, and this is what you typically do in a modern compact bar setup, but these are not modern campy or shimano shifters with long curved shape and easy to reach levers. If I pull them further back my small hands don't reach them in the drops. It is possible as a hack to glue a spacer in there to get the levers permanently semi-pulled and closer to the bar (I've seen others with small hands do that), and I may actually try that, then I could probably get a better hoods/drops tradeoff.

On drop bar setup in general I think this guide is good: https://cyclingtips.com/2018/09/how-...ps-guidelines/

On being inflexible, just as you don't have to be fat you don't have to be inflexible. I know that. But the thing is that I prefer to set up my bikes to fit my body and style of riding as it is *now*, not how I would like it to be in the future. I change the setup along the way as needed.

As a sidenote, the current reach of this bike is 2,5 cm shorter than my race bike. But I'm not going to post an image of that one as I'm sure it's full of fit errors...

WhyFi

Welcome to BF.

Campag4life

Since you didn't appreciate my advice, let me agree with you then. In bold above. Yes, that stack of spacers is hideous. Mona Lisa with a moustache...lol.
Glad we could come to terms and agree.

exmechanic89

Bike looks great, imo. You and I have the same sizing needs too, OP. My preference is 55cm but I ride a 54, and can also ride a 56, though I prefer the smaller frame.

fietsbob

No ..

caloso

Tires will have a much bigger effect on ride comfort than the material of the rims. That is, the biggest tires that will fit your frame and the best you can afford. Also, in my experience, tubulars are more supple and more comfortable than clinchers.

Chi_Z

compact bar on vintage steel frame is just wrong, better spend the time to work on your core muscles so you can fit on a traditional bend bar

torger

It's just incredible how the cycling community can uphold so much of this type of attitude. I've been in lots of different sports throughout my many years (and I still am), kayaking, cross-country skiing, running, climbing etc, and in not any of those other sports people have such an urge to make unsolicited comments on other people's style. It's truly fascinating. I can take it, oh well, not by staying silent all times, but I know people that stay out of cycling just because of those guys in the club rides that always comment on other people's gear, fitness or whatever. And the unsolicited "advice", it's just plain wrong 80% of the time, given without having adequate information and not rarely given to people that know more about the subject than the one giving it.

Of course I don't have anything against people thinking XYZ is ugly or poor style or whatever. Everyone has their taste. I also have my taste in things, but I don't feel the need to put out negativity around me for no reason, it just makes the communities unpleasant for both established members and newcomers. When I see someone's bike I know they've spent time on to make it nice and probably really like and is proud of, I say something nice about it. Of course there are most often things in the build I would have chosen to do otherwise, we all have different taste, but if I don't get asked about that I don't feel the urge to spit it out. It's just plain decent social behavior.

By the way, it's not primarily the core muscles that need working if you want to be in a lower position. It's mostly about flexibility and it's more likely the neck muscles to hold up your head that will have problems rather than the core. Even if I get lower I wouldn't switch out the compact bar though, just as I wouldn't switch to downtube shifters or old style bar tape. What I would do is lower and lengthen the position, still keeping the compact bar as it's just better. Keeping bikes as museum pieces is perfectly fine if that is your thing, but I think that continuing using a frame with modern bits and pieces is just as beautiful. The ergonomics and ride quality of this frame is just as good as any modern endurance bike, thanks to the springy steel frame and the modern ergonomics.

The principle I follow when building up a bike is to not use parts that do not perform well, but otherwise I can make stylistic choices. I like retro/modern crossover, and I like making the component choices. The crank set in this bike is one example, I don't use the more modern looking 4-arm, but on the other hand I don't use an old style heavy and narrowly spaced chain ring crank set either. And the principle when fitting a bike is to make the bike work for the rider using it, and optimize it for the style of riding it will be used, meaning that a bike used for endurance rides have a different fit than a bike used for intense racing.

But anyway the alloy vs carbon question, the actual question I had, I think I've got good responses and I thank for that. Now I'm leaving the forum for a while...

Campag4life

Why the comments Torquer? Simple. You defaced Ernesto's master due to needless compensations for your 'special needs' when the reality is the opposite. Your perception. I do fittings. Why turn Ernesto's master into a dutch bike? Of course there will be backlash for this blasphemy for those that appreciate the lineage of cycling and what his namesake means to the sport.

I was trying to help you..because rolling a drop bar back is such a common amateur mistake which defeats the purpose of the bike...which is a drop bar bike. That's all. You posted a picture and destroyed the aesthetic of a masterpiece and was trying to help you understand that a high handlebar farther away requires the bars to be rotated rearward for ergonomic agreement with hand position when that isn't how the handlebar or bike was designed.

Of course you can do what you like and you. But this is a cycling forum and if you put streamers on the bike, that will likely elicit comments as well.

But I lol'ed when you mentioned why some people don't or quit cycling by what you perceive as outspokeness aka snobbery about equipment. Yes, people judge one another for sure...especially among better riders who tend to be competitive by nature. Equipment, position on the bike, pedal stroke. All works together. For those that are self conscious, they likely are so for a reason....they aren't doing it right. Others are more proud of their lessons learned. You can deny mainstream thought, but it exists for a reason.

Knowledge is power. Of course, one can deny that knowledge, or disbelieve it which is in part what separates people. Dave Moulton who has done thousand's of fittings cryptically marked up a picture of a common amateur position on the bike which shows how would fit the rider which 'comports more with how the frame is designed'...bar closer in and farther down with reduced spacer stack:

torger

I think I have restored this bike well and given it a good new life, I've put quite some effort into it and I'm actually a bit proud as I'm not a natural mechanic or restorer. I understand that you don't think so at the basis of a few fit details and feel the urge to spell it out and try to make me feel bad about it, fine. I think it's silly and childish, but it's cycling and this is how cycling works, obviously. There's an alienating culture maintained by some. I've been in many other competitive sports and this unsolicited telling what others should do or how they should look and how their gear should look is unique to cycling. There's something with the culture. I claim it's not healthy and is an aspect one should try to get rid of, but you are free to disagree.

But your talk about my fit is just plain wrong, and I just need to respond. Hopefully this can be my final post. You make assumptions without even seeing me, knowing my experience, seeing me on the bike or how the bike is used and it leads wrong. If you work with fits you should understand that. I help out with fits too sometimes, at an amateur level. I don't claim to be an expert, and sometimes I get a bit insecure, especially in the beginning of this thread when it was a while I was into it, I didn't get in here to discuss fit... But getting up to speed I do know a thing or two about fit and I do know that you need to see the whole picture before you actually start make judgements.

Sure if you put the bar too far away and too high up you can rotate it to compensate and that would be a strange thing to do, just as you say. But there are other explanations for a fit looking like that. My race fit is longer, lower and indeed with flatter bar. So one solution for your "blasphemy" issue is if I just put my race fit onto the bike. I don't use this bike for racing, but longer rides so I prefer a higher back angle, use the hoods more so it's shorter higher and bar is slightly rolled up. It's just plain wrong that an upward slope for the hands would not be useful for comfort also within normal reach range. An upward slope of about 5 degrees is standard these days. With more modern hoods shape and lever reach adjustment (or if you just have big hands to compensate, and sure you didn't know anything about my hand size either) this can be achieved without angling up the bar though as you can get the slope directly in the hoods. I don't think standard compact bar drop position suffer that much with a few angles of slope, you should try (it's worse if you have an aero bar as the wing is then put at an angle). I also do think that many fits go too much for drop and too little for reach especially if your effective back reach is on the short side, which is briefly discussed above.

So I'm fine with that you think the look of my bike is "blasphemy" due to a too relaxed fit (or rather I have to tolerate that), but I'm not okay with you assuming that it is that way due to that I'm clueless setting up a fit, which I'm not. I just wanted to make that point clear.

Campag4life

You are twisting things 'again'. Make you feel bad about it? Ridiculous and insulting. You insult me for trying to help you.

I should have taken the lesson of my golf pro when I was a little kid. We became good friends. He knew I had a student's heart. I am a natural mechanic btw.

We would be at the driving range at he would point to a guy on the range and say, see that guy over there? He said, I have been giving that guy lessons for years now. A complete waste of time. He thinks he knows it all and he has and always be a high handicap. And that's the way the cookie crumbles...lol