70sSanO

To reach their targeted demographic that would be vinegar and oil.

John

AndreyT

That's physically ignorant. The same amount of watts (i.e. units of power) always provides exactly the same amount of help, regardless of whether it is hub drive, mid drive, ass drive or whatever drive.

Wildwood 

I once considered standing in a 2 hour long line to get Greg's autograph. Instead I got Gilberto Simone and Alexander Petacchi's and had lunch (at a busy trade show) .

fooferdoggie 

no its not because a mid drive uses the drive train so it adds a lot more torque through it. multiplies it by a large factor. one of the reasons a mid drive is great at mountain biking. I can climb a 20% grade on my mid drive and its only 350 watts. your 750 watt hub drive is about 75 or so nm of torque my mid drive is 63. but I have far more torque through the drive train. the reason a chain does not last as long on a mid drive. a simple example what's easier to peddle a multi cog bike or a single speed bike?

vane171

Good for him and his customers, it doesn't always work out even if the will and enthusiasm and deep pocket is all there. The choice of the market segment is in this case actually way more trustworthy than (perhaps), say, Alberto Contador's ultra bike.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/alb...esting-record/

While ebike might seem like a heresy for those who dedicated their life to bicycling as a sport, it does make business sense. It will appeal to those who don't care about making a bike into almost something like a virtual e-motorcycle - to those who rode bike actively when younger, or ex-racers who might want to go out with their more capable buddies, or take their family members along without making it a tourist outing (you'd still need to be fairly accomplished though since this is really just an assist I believe, unlike some ebikes that ride without you doing nothing or almost nothing). This would fill that niche provided you go after style and can pay for it too.

vane171

I would agree with you, just add that it is a speed trade off.

nomadmax 

Not really.

Watts are indeed watts, BUT a mid drive can take advantage of the bicycle gearing for greater leverage. Power at the rear hub does not use gearing so the power/force can not be multiplied. Water is wet, whether you believe it or not.

You have to be careful throwing that word "ignorant" around; sometimes it's like a boomerang.

fooferdoggie 

speed tradeoff? my mid drive motor topped out at 28 but it was geared so I could peddle to about 37. but I put a smaller chainring on it so I could climb better. I can top out around 32 but it now climbs like a goat. but to get to 28 I need to put around 200 watts out.

indyfabz

I've actually encountered some pros while not watching races. In addition to seeing Lemond, I saw Pantani while I was riding to a '95 Giro stage finish at the Bianchi factory. He was injured and sitting out the Giro to get ready for the TdF. Must have been taking an easy spin that day. In the mid-80s, the day prior to the U.S. pro road championship which was held in my home town of Philly for many years, I and a bunch of locals hooked onto 7-11 for a while when the team was out of an easy (for it) spin of about 23 mph. Later I did the same with Coor's Light. In 2001, while I was attending to a mechanical on the side of an MUP, Lance and the boys from Motorol flew by the day before the race. Some time prior to that, while riding the same MUP home the morning after a New Year's Eve party, I was stripping off a layer on the side of the same MUP when Bobby Julich came spinning by on a SS wearing his Cofidis kit. He was living in Philly at the time with his then girlfriend. I did a double take when I realized who he was and he smiled back.

AndreyT

Wrong, and again physically ignorant in the most obvious and basic sense.

Power (watts) is a mechanical invariant, as dictated by the Conservation of Energy Law. No mechanical system can cause gain or loss of power. No mechanical system can multiply or divide power. That, of course, first and foremost applies to gearing. Gearing can multiply torque, but not power. Gearing can multiply torque by a factor of N, but that will immediately mean that this same gearing will divide speed (rpm) by the same factor of N. Ignoring heat losses, the product of Torque*RPM (which is power) will always remain identical at the input of a gearbox and at its output.

Regardless of how you slice it, regardless of how you gear it, regardless of where you place it, gearing can't multiply power. The power will remain constant. No way around it. This is elementary-grade physics

The only thing you can fight for is efficiency, i.e. how much of available power is redirected (wasted) as useless heat. But that's a completely different story. (And actually hub drive has an upper hand in efficiently for obvious reasons.)

I'll quote our own words again: "[...] gear hub does not use gearing so the power [...] can not be multiplied". This statement of yours implies that gearing can be used to multiply power (!). This hilarious statement alone makes it a slam-dunk situation. You need to learn at least elementary-grade physics to participate in this conversation. On behalf of BikeForums I'm obliged to inform you that you are not allowed to use words "physics", "power", "gearing", "ignorant" or "boomerang" here. These words are way out of your depth.

How's that for a boomerang?

sloppy12

Yes basically. its a hub drive motor so whatever watts its putting out is basically what is at the wheel, Your Watts will have some loss from drive train. It has max speed for the motor so once you get above that it will be all you.
With a bike like this if you are a strong rider dropping the power level down to like 90 watts is a better strategy you can probably already make any climb you encounter or carry a good top speed. so drop the watts and get more range and go a little faster with about the same effort. and when you toss a basket on this thing it will make the groceries or beers feel way lighter.

AndreyT

That would be misleading. Just because you accelerated faster than the max speed of the hub motor does not mean that the motor suddenly becomes a useless dead weight. It does not mean that the entire effort of propelling the bike is suddenly bestowed upon your legs. It won't be "all you".

Once you reach the maximum hub motor speed MaxS in a system with maximum rated power MaxW, the motor will continue to supply assisting torque of up to MaxT = MaxW / MaxS. Even if you keep accelerating faster and faster above MaxS, the motor will continue to supply its fixed share of effort in form of torque MaxT. Your legs will only have to supply what is necessary above MaxT. The extra effort on top of MaxT is you, not "all of it" is you.

sloppy12

It has a cutoff. Most commercial ebikes have cutoffs. When I reach the "max" on my ebike its just me putting in the watts until speed drops and it kicks back in.

Both my ebikes are direct drive and they are for sure dead weight after the cutoff is reached.

chaadster

I want to say thanks to everyone for the discussion. I’ve never thought meaningfully about e-bikes before, and they’re clearly more complicated than I might have imagined.

Koyote

Yes, from an engineering perspective, they are a bit complicated. But from a much simpler perspective, they are pretty simple: they can dramatically reduce the exercise and achievement from cycling.

chaadster

True, but I didn’t mean the engineering is complicated, but rather that understanding what the advantages and disadvantages of the various types and features are, and how those things affect the ride quality.

More specifically, I’m tying to get my head around how geared mid-drives feel different to a hub motor at the pedals. It was mentioned upthread that one or the other might feel more “natural,” but I can’t process yet what that really means.

Koyote

Seems like some test rides would be best, though it may still be hard to find things in-stock.

chaadster

You know, why not? I should! I’m fortunate to have a good e-bike shop here in town: https://human-electric-hybrids.com/

sloppy12

Even that water can get muddy. hub motors come in two basic types a direct drive and a geared drive. the geared drive is also going to be pointed to as more natural feeling. the direct drive has way more resistance without power it feels like peddling in mud or the hardest gear when its not powered. a geared hub motor and a mid drive just feel like riding a heavy bike without power.

Pop N Wood

Man, think I'm back on a muscle car site listening to yet one more argument about torque vs HP.

The problem you are both talking past is how an electric motor tends to work. They are typically constant torque, i.e. same twisting force regardless of RPM. And since as you note power is torque times RPM the faster you can get the motor spinning the more power it makes.

Hub and mid drive motors are typically made differently as well. This makes the basic mid drive motor more efficient from the get go.

50PlusCycling

Though I own a power-assist shopping bike here in Japan (for shopping and taking my young daughter to school), it is hard for me to take these kind of power assist bicycles seriously. The advantage of riding a bicycle is not to have to put fuel in it, or plug it in (which is the same thing, but which takes much longer). The bike in the advert has a range of 45 miles, it takes me about 20 miles of riding just to warm up properly. I do like the style of the bike, but if you remove the battery and the electric hub you end up with a much lighter bike which any fit person could ride at higher speeds than the power assist is capable of.

I am a big fan of Greg, and was lucky enough to meet him a few times in his racing days (he signed my Sports Illustrated "Athlete of the Year" magazine), and I hope his latest venture is successful. LeMond bicycles had been doing quite well until Lance Armstrong pressured Trek to stop distributing Greg's bikes. For that reason I will never buy a Trek bike.

CodyDog

Agree!

aclinjury

If Lemond puts a dropbar and up the speed to 28 mph,.. and keep the price at $4500, this would make a market for it, and I may just bite.
Even though I'm a capable cyclist able to hit 28 mph on the flat by myself, but will not last long at 28mph.
The thought of being able to "play" at 28 mph on the flats for miles on end during a weekday training just fkin fun!
I could also take it out on the local mountain fireroad and hammer away uphil like mad. Yeah I'll be cheating and pissing off a bunch of lycras on their CX's, but i'd be fkin fun!
And I could even use such bike on a local "fast group ride" when I'm fatigued (which currently I can't really do unless i want to kill my body).
So lots of potential. What i really like about this bike is its sleek and subtle design.
Mid-drive is conspicuous, people look at you and they know you're a cheater. With this bike, they'd have to catch up to you first and look at the bike (which ain't gonna happen!).