Racer Ex 

Hence the sunburn and heat stroke.

mollusk

In fact they tend to slow down in the last lap to "save" something for the sprint.

BrainInAJar

I'm more sure of it than the 1s power. The curve is smooth with a jump between 1 and 2s. It's possible that I hit 1175, but I'm more inclined to treat the 2s power as correct.

Either way, my sprint sucks.

miwoodar

Defeatest! You shouldn't say stuff like that until you're not willing to share your numbers.

You can improve.

shovelhd

My sprint starts at 95rpm. It doesn't matter what gear I'm in, as long as I'm going with the pack at 95rpm. Then I jump, wind it up until I feel the power start to fall off, somewhere between 120-130rpm, then upshift. My power might start to fall off at 110rpm this time, so I shift up again. It might take one more shift until I hit the wall, then grunt it out to the line. Please note that I am no longer a jump sprinter as I used to be. I'm too old and slow for that. I am more of a drag race sprinter, daring you to try and come off my wheel, saving a little kick if you do.

carpediemracing 

The troubling thing is that this has been more the norm for me for the last few years, before I upgraded. I only got past people in certain courses under certain conditions. This year it's much worse. I think I've contested 1 sprint in a Sunday race and only field sprints (with a break up the road) in training races. I haven't won a single one.

I think I have to adjust my sprint to be more tactical, go earlier, etc., i.e. all compensation for lack of speed. Which is basically saying that anyone with a normal sprint should be able to crush me in a race.

efficiency

I have never shifted in a sprint in a race. I'm a track racer so that's what I'm used to, but on the road it is probably better to shift at least once after the initial jump, especially in a long sprint. I am also never in the 12 during a sprint: 53x12 is a massive gear.

Do two things: practice winding out a gear completely to 140 rpm to develop leg speed, and practice shifting once during a sprint. A small initial gear will get you better acceleration for the first part of the sprint until you wind it out, then you will get better power over the length of longer sprints if you shift so your cadence isn't so high.

Debusama

I did win one that way in a weeknight practice race, but I live in sparely populated area, and there aren't enough racers for each category to get it's own field, so in the races that count, Cat4s race in a combined field with masters 40+ who set such a grueling pace that the pack always gets split into a bunch of 4-8 person groups. Winning here as a cat 4 seems to be about navigating the pack such that you are towards the front when the masters drop the hammer and the pack gets split 10 ways, usually on a climb, then hanging on for dear life in hopes you you are the only cat4 left with the lead group when they get to the 1000 meter mark, and the masters ride away. Crits are different because it seems the younger cat4s have an advantage when it comes to recovery time after sprinting out of all the corners.

Brian Ratliff

Not a "youth" thing; more of a base fitness thing. The "youth" thing comes into effect when you try to race the second race of the weekend (i.e. long term recovery).

Creatre

I had my best crit result as a 4 using this technique, having read waterrockets advice before. My 1" power is also ridiculously high though. I would have actually won that race but there was 6 corners in the last minute of the crit course which killed the momentum.

Debusama

Whatever the explanation may be, the 4s haven't had nearly as much trouble keeping up with the masters in crits as they do in the road races. I suppose the particular masters who usually push the pace in the RRs just might not be crit guys... I don't know.

ridethecliche

If you'd have played your cards right, it would have helped a ton because 1 guy going through corners fast and picking his own lines can carry a lot more speed than a bunch of people.

caloso

Just jumping in here with my observations: I'd volunteered to be a leadout guy for our best sprinters. So over the spring and summer, I've been working on my 1' power with WRI's and by practicing going super hard with 1000 m to go on race rides. And strangely enough, now I'm finding myself at the end of the rides having dropped my sprinter and having to duke it out myself. Haven't won one yet, but came really close without intending to. If I can keep this up, I think I may even be able to steal a good finish at the end of season crits.

Brian Ratliff

You might be jumping too hard to keep your sprinter on your wheel. A good leadout is a ramping effort, not a WRI (sprint then hang on). If you are dropping your sprinter, then the two of you aren't really working as a team. As a leadout man, you shouldn't have any thoughts at all about your own finish; your only thought is to keep your sprinter on your wheel and keep everyone else from coming around.

caloso

That's a good point. Yeah, I knew that, but now I'm thinking I can reverse engineer my interval workouts. Maybe an Inverse Waterrockets Interval (IWRI, pat. pending): instead of jumping to 900 and hoping to hang on to 400, I need to go to 400, then 500, then 600, etc. It'll be a lot harder, but if I could train my legs to do this, it would solve the problem of dropping (or wearing out) the sprinter and still keep guys from coming around.

shovelhd

A good leadout guy picks his way through the front of the field in a seated sprint, only getting out of the saddle when they're clear, if at all. So if you want to be able to do that, you need to forget about your jump and work on your seated sprint, which is by nature, a drag race, ramp-up type of sprint.

SpongeDad

As an abysmal sprinter, I'm struggling to find something that gets me to mediocre. The inability to throw a quick little snap into my race is killing me in corners and at the finish.

BrainInAJar

If anyone's still paying attention to this thread, I'm wondering if spending some time in the gym doing squats might help. CDR seems to indicate that either you are a sprinter or you aren't, but 1) when does that become apparent ? (ie, will you know in your first couple years racing) and 2) can off-bike exercise (squats & deadlifts) compensate?

ridethecliche

Lifting might help recruit more fibers to fire and help with hypertrophy, but doing more sprints helps recruit more fibers too.

I say give it a try, but learn the form or you'll end up like me. You can do lunges and hypers to hit the same muscles without as much risk. Pay attention to your body though.

Don't neglect things like planks and stretches though.

carpediemracing 

My 5th race I jumped for the sprint and finished alone (there were a few guys already off). I didn't know I was a "sprinter" then but my jump immediately gave me 5-10 meters. I figured it was a fluke.

By my third year I was realizing that no matter how much I worked on climbing I couldn't climb well (first one dropped on hills). I jumped in a crit that year for the win (i.e. we were racing for first) and after a few seconds of sprinting I thought I jumped on the wrong lap. No one else was sprinting as far as I could tell. I kind of soft pedaled the last bit in case I had to race another lap but instead everyone sat up at the line. I had to ask a guy on our team if I sprinted on the right lap.

Those "examples" I listed at the beginning of the thread are all ones that I experienced. I often feel guilty for sprinting on a group ride at set points when I look down and back and realize (erroneously) that no one else is sprinting.

I've also gotten my ass handed to me in sprints, like the guy jumps from next to me, gets 10 feet in front, sits down, looks back, laughs, and keeps going. And this was when I was as good as I got.

Squats may help but I never lifted consistently with legs, not seriously. My knees are pretty fragile so if I do anything involving squat/press/extensions my knees hurt. I did notice that my hamstrings got strong, like doing 100-120 lbs was pretty normal for me on hamstring curls (before 20-30 lbs was tough).

I tend to do some upper body stuff just because, but no one who knows me will say I'm buff. I try and simulate bike racing "holds" so my curls are with the bar vertical at the top (i.e. like holding the drops of a bar), I do bent over rows/flys, etc.

I also do shoulder stuff (presses, flys, etc) to build up my shoulder area. This is more preventative (shoulder/collarbone) than for anything else.

The years I lifted most I wasn't stronger on the bike. The years I didn't lift at all (but did max rpm spin ups on a fixed gear flywheel bike - 260-280+ rpm - and I did sprints every Tuesday - like 15 or more all out field sprints) I was good.

BrainInAJar

Right, so I have no delusions of becoming a sprinter, it a'int going to happen for me ever. I obviously don't have the muscle makeup for it and that's okay.

What about non-sprinters working on increasing their jump? ie, would it be a waste of time for my persuitist (I guess...) ass to do sprint drills. Is my 1-5" power pegged where it is in perpetuity?

carpediemracing 

The guy that got 3rd at Elite nationals in 2002 claims his peak watt number is 1270 or so, which is pretty good for me in a race but not if I were on a training ride trying to peg the needle. He's astounded at my peak numbers.

On the other hand I've never entertained the notion of placing top 5 at Elite nationals. He has. He also placed 5th or something as a Junior.

You don't have to sprint to win. It's just easier. The hard way to win is to make the breaks and such. That's what he does. When he podiumed at Nationals he took off out of the field at 8 mi to go, bridged a 1 min gap over 5 miles of chasing, then (because a guy in the break yelled at him to do so) pulled for 3 miles to the finish, then led out the sprint. He got 3rd out of 5.

He was full gas for 8 miles then led out the sprint and still got third. Insane. If I lead out for 0.5 mi I'm cooked for 5 minutes. I prefer jumping at 150m to go, closer if I have the nerve.

Does he worry about his jump? No. What he does is gas it when a break is coming back (or a flurry of failed attacks is settling down) then he goes. He attacks a few times then attacks for real when the group is collectively fatigued. It's vicious and effective, at least until he gained another 70-80 lbs. Now, at probably over 250 lbs (he was 155-158 at 02 Nationals), he struggles to accelerate up to speed and hills kill him.

He does a lot of 5 min type efforts, ones that suit him. He averages something insane, like 550w, but whatever. He'll also hold 900w or thereabouts for almost a minute when trying to break a strong field (this was a few years ago, he was about 180 lbs). He's crazy strong.

The thing that made him strongest was motorpacing. His dad is an ex-cyclist, his grand-dad a former track pro. The dad understands motorpacing and did regular 3-5 hour sessions before the son's best performances (typically Nationals). This guy is also clean so it's not unnatural.

ridethecliche

You are worrying way too much about numbers.

If you want to lift, then lift in the offseason and see what it does for you.

If you're talking about power and you don't have a power meter, then stop.
If you're trying to train by power instead of with power, then stop.

shovelhd

If he's the guy I was away with two weeks ago, yes, he is very strong. There are a lot of strong riders at the Rent. What makes him special in my eyes is his short recovery time for a guy not in peak form. He'll go OTF in a break for 5-8 laps, get caught, take a lap off, and do it again. I can't do that too many times.

Crash716

maybe i am meant to be a sprinter..i weigh 165, my 5s is 1450ish and it might drop to 1400 if I don't ride my bike for 2 months…however, i don't have the gas to stay where I need to if I take that much time off. All the jump and sprint in the world isn't worth poo if you can't make it to the show cause you've been torn apart during the last 2 laps.