scarlson 

I mean it depends on the gravel. For years my Ron Cooper with 700x38 Barlow Pass tires was my gravel bike, which I used on the unmaintained roads when I lived in Vermont and then afterward to explore up and down the Cape Cod dune roads. A lot of it is perfectly rideable on 38s, and to that end I just built a touring bike for my Vermont friend out of a Univega Specialissima with 700x38 Gravelking tires, and he built another one for his girlfriend with the same, out of a Nishiki Riviera GT. They both live on gravel roads.

I had, and adored, a Peugeot Orient Express for years, and did use it as a gravelbike. I remember thinking it would make a fantastic tourer. But I didn't really like the slack geometry and smaller frame of it, so I let it go in favor of road-ish touring bikes.

Maybe we're splitting hairs here, and I certainly didn't want to invalidate anyone's comments or be a know-it-all, just wanted to set the record straight about the tire sizes that will work by sharing my practical experience, because that's really all I have.

I guess we all have different priorities. It looks like @bikemig prioritizes fatter tires and I prioritize a steep head tube angle, and these priorities are borne out in our bike choices.

Edit: @Sir_Name , what size are those tires?

Guyatwork37

Oh yeah, for any bikes we get, we're tearing it all down to the frame (assuming its a full bike and not just the frame) and going through all bearing and what not. Full rebuild, but with modern components instead of the period specific or the ones it came with. Also, thank you for all of the recommendations on local bike shops! I was wondering if it would be worthwhile to do the coldset work myself, but I'll check on cost.

As for gearing I was thinking something along the 30-40-50 up front and 12-36 in the back but open to other ranges. Haven't gotten that far to be honest.

I think at this point we're expanding our bike options, but what we'd really like to do, if possible, is source birth year bikes (for us that would be 1983). Who knows how feasible that is, but we have 6 or 7 months at least to sort it out. If anyone has some 1983 touring frames laying around, let me know

Guyatwork37

Also, if you cold set the read forks, will a new brake bridge be mandatory?

scarlson 

Never needed it. I've done dozens, most of 'em all the way out to 135 from 126 or so.

Some folks say you should put a clamp there while you're spreading the frame, and I used to do this, until once I was spreading a frame and the clamp fell off! I was horrified, but it taught me a lesson. If you need a clamp at the bridge to stop the frame coming apart, your bridge needs some work. And if the bridge isn't strong enough to withstand spreading the stays a few mm, you may want to question the quality of the brazing in the rest of the frame.

Road Fan

I presume that you check the seatstay bridge brazes without removing paint, before starting to cold set? How do you do that?

scarlson 

I mean I give it a look for obvious gaping gaps, but we're not building a rocket here. If nothing jumps out at me, I'll just go for it. Worst thing happens is it breaks while I'm spreading it, and as I said if that happens the whole rest of the frame is suspect as well, and should be scrutinized. I would do this further scrutiny by eye, maybe filing off the paint around the lug edges and poking around inside the BB shell to examine the brazing penetration at that point, to decide whether it's worth repairing the bridge. No sense throwing good money after bad. Some old Raleighs and Holdsworths and other British bikes seem to be held together with paint in some places.

Bottom line is, if it can't stand up to being spread, it was likely going to crack while riding it. Ergo, spreading a frame isn't going to cause any damage that wouldn't have happened at some point anyway. Better to have it happen in the shop than on the road. So don't worry! I mean, be careful and don't spread it 10mm extra, but really, don't worry excessively.

When I saw the amount of "cold setting" that framebuilders do to get the rear triangle right in the first place, I was shocked. There's a lot of massaging things around. Of course, there was more back in the day when fewer jigs were employed, but even if you jig everything up perfectly, it's pretty hard to get something that is dead-on just from brazing it.

I only do this for friends and myself. I wouldn't do it for a stranger who'd be liable to sue me. If I'm doing it for a friend, I will impart all this onto them, so they get it before I start. If they don't feel comfortable with my work, we aren't good enough friends for me to be doing the work! If the bike is so expensive and amazing as to pose a heavy financial risk if the bridge were to break, I would argue against spreading it at all, as its value will go down if not kept original.

Germany_chris

Why did you put the shiftmate at the down tube cable stop?

mstateglfr 

A new one is mandatory if you break the one already on there while spreading the rear dropouts. But short of that- no a new bridge isnt necessary.
Perhaps call around to a shop or builder(there are a handful near you) and ask them to spread the rear if you are unsure about doing it well on your own. They can then realign the dropouts and check the derailleur hanger while they have the frame since those things take only minutes to correct if needed.

Sir_Name 

650b x 42 mm. The bike got the Gugificazione treatment before gugie sold it to me (nice that autocorrect on my phone now recognizes “Gugificazione” — someone tell Webster). To your point regarding tire size and gravel, it really does depend on what yer riding over. Along with priorities of course, as stated. I have a road bike with 32c tires and wide/alpine gearing that’s my off road climbing and go-fast bike. The tire size is great for compact or pea sized gravel, and good enough for trail diversions...I definitely can get myself into situations where I’m under-biked. That’s fun too, though.
~~~
If I were planning a bike build for a loaded tour, I’d want 35 mm tires minimum, probably something closer to 38-42. Wider still if spending much time off road.

I just thought that was cleanest. It’s also nice that the stop provides a solid anchor.

Road Fan

For me, birth year bikes are waayyy earlier! I got a 1952 Rudge which is a bit older than me!

The Golden Boy 

To answer the question- yes you can do it- in addition to the myriads of individual threads- there's a whole Megathread about 'retro-roadies' dedicated to building "vintage" bikes up to 8-9-10-11 speed.

My 1985 Trek 720 is "upgraded" to 10 speed SIS- I think it's pretty slick. My component decisions were pretty much based on what parts I thought were cool and the best part- whether it was "vintage" or modern.

As far as the frame goes- it's a 1985 Trek 720 made from either 531C or 531ST- it's got 47cm chainstays. The bike was spaced at 128 and my hub is 130, I just popped the wheel in.

As far as part selection goes- I chose Nitto B177 bars in 44 because the B177s are comfortable- and wider bars are more comfortable. The TRP RRL levers are amazingly comfortable- some find them hideous- but after riding them, the look grows on you. I'm using old Suntour Command Shifters retrofitted to SIS 10 speed. The Technomic stem is great because it allows you to be as upright as you wish to be. I really like the old style Brooks Cambium. The Suntour XC Pro seat post is exceptionally light and adjustable. The wheels are Phil hubs with Atlas rims- they're beefy. The brakes are the Suntour XC Pro- great strength, adjustability, modulation and they look pretty stunning. The derailleurs are Dura Ace 7803 rear and 7700 front. The crank is the Sugino AT- 50, 38, 28. When I get around to it, I'm going to be changing the big ring down to a 48. When I get around to it. The BB is a vintage Suntour VX sealed unit- I probably should get a different BB. The pedals are SR SP-11 pedals with King Cage clips.

IMG_0616 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr

IMG_2377 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr

Command Shifter + RRL Lever by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr

720 Stash by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr

IMG_1714 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr

IMG_0079 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr

IMG_1703 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr

IMG_1715 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr

720 6 14 20 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr

Moisture

Its totally doable; but I think it's not worth the effort. I like. Vintahe frames too. Personally, I prefer the older stuff on my vintahe road bike. It is more trust worthy and reliable. As long as you have a 34 tooth rear freewheel there will be a low.enogjj gear for your needs
.

Cougrrcj

If MY OLD BODY was up to it, I'd be perfectly happy to ride the Colorodo Rockies with my '84 Univega Gran Tourismo and the right gearing. Triple crankset - check. 6-7-speed rear cluster - check. I'd have to pick the chainrings and rear cogs to match the terrain compared to what I use here in the glacially-scoured lower Great Lakes... but it could be done easily! 28t granny and 32t rear for a low gear should get you up just about ANY hill! Check out this combo! 50/40/28 triple crank and a 14-16-18-21-24-28-32 seven speed (and yes I have such a freewheel(!) available) out back! https://www.gear-calculator.com 126mm OLD fits just fine! I'd ride that ANYWHERE!!!!

WAAAAAY back in '73, while on vacation with the folks (I was 15 at the time) we met up with a young couple that were riding/touring the Canadian Rockies on bikes... The campground was full, but we let them pitch their tent on our campsite since it was getting dark and the next campground was another 25 miles or so down the road... I doubt they had more than 5-speeds out back in those years, but they <might> have had triple cranksets... I was in awe that they could manage cycling at all in that mountainous terrain!!!

mstateglfr 

- you don't know their skill or it essentially level to say anything on the back is enough(especially when not knowing whats up front).
- you haven't toured, so how do you know what gearing is needed to get a rider, bike, and gear from Y to Z?
- what is your claim that vintage stuff is more reliable even based on? How much experience do you have with modern drivetrains? Also, what vintage stuff and what modern stuff are we even comparing? You get a Suntour Mountech RD, ill take a modern Deore 591 RD, and we can swap notes after 2 years of riding singletrack and touring. Seriously though, what are you basing the claim of vintage is more reliable on? There was durable stuff then and there is durable stuff now. There were delicate or poorly designed components then and there are delicate or poorly designed components now. Cherry picking is dumb, so whatcha got?

polymorphself 

This may be contendable! My Voyageur could do up to 35's with fenders. This guy is riding 45 up front and 42 in the rear on his without fenders: https://bikepacking.com/news/readers...winn-voyageur/ although he barely appears to be cutting it in the rear

Of course will always depend on the bike, but I think the mid to late 80s grand tourers at least could fit bigger tires than people might think.

But yeah, up to 32 is always a safe bet.

pcb 

So much info here already, I'll just chime in with a few thoughts. Keep in mind that although it is obviously totally doable, some accommodations are easier to deal with than others.

1. Make sure the frame will fit the tire width you want to use. And if you want to also install fenders, which is a great idea for touring, make sure the tire width will fit with fenders.

2. Although somebody said they've never had problems using 700c wheels in canti frames designed for 27" wheels, it does have the potential to complicate things. Boss spacing/position isn't always consistent, and not every canti brake caliper available will have the shoe height/angle adjustment range needed---you'll need to match the canti with the frame.

3. Vintage canti boss spacing is often narrower than more modern/current spacing, and often requires using vintage or vintage-ish wide-profile cantis. Vintage cantis didn't all have a lot of shoe height range.

4. If you're planning on using more modern, wider rims, that'll complicate brake choice as well. Narrow bosses can fight you when you try to use wider rims.

5. General rule of thumb for rear triangle spreading is under 5mm should be minimal sweat, more than 5mm, especially if you're getting close to 10mm, increases the chances of damaging the frame. Primary concerns being the seatstay/chainstay bridges, and the stays at those bridge joints. So 126mm to 130mm isn't particularly difficult or scary, while 126mm to 135mm is riskier. And yeah, you could just leave a 126mm rear alone and spread the stays to 130mm when installing the rear wheel, but when the bike has 30lbs+ of gear, and you're in the pouring rain, and you flat, you'll be a lot happier if your wheel change is less complicated. It'll also be harder stretching the rear stays when you have a rack attached, since now you're stretching the rack as well.

6. Under-bb der cable routing will be better than over-bb, especially if you want to use smaller outer rings. With over-bb routing, you can run into issues with the rear of the fder cage hitting the rder cable before you can get it low enough over the outer ring.

7. Lastly I'll just throw in a +1 for more bz-ons being better. The fewer clamps you need to use, the lower the chance of stuff loosening and sliding around.

8. I erred, this is last, kind of a minor detail, but try to get all your mounting bolts to be similar in size, and standardize on allen-head bolts. Ideally you want to be able to handle everything with a 4/5/6mm y-wrench, but if you need to use vintage cantis, you'll likely need 8/9/10mm wrenches as well.

non-fixie 

Lots of good advice above. However, as I am cheap and like to keep things simple, I have found that I don't *need* all of it.

For me it is not so much the number of gears but the having the right ones for the job on hand that is important. I can be perfectly happy with the right 2 x 5 or 2 x 6 setup:



I have come to like brifters for touring lately, especially in the hills, and have done a couple of conversions of my favorite touring bikes by not much more than mounting a set of used brifters and "correct" (i.e. matching the shifter's cable pull and cog spacing) rear derailleur. A freewheel with ramped cogs isn't strictly necessary but improves shifting considerably. The same can be said for modern shifter cable housing.

The one that has got the biggest mileage so far is this Austro-Daimler Inter 10: Reynolds 531 frame and forks, no braze-ons, 700X28C tires and fenders, 3 x 6 indexed rear shifting:



Another cheap and cheerful route - for those interested - to to brifting pleasure is Sora 7-speed. Not as pretty as Campagnolo, but works very well. I built this parts bin special as a Covid Christmas project:

Road Fan

As I get older I worry more about falling, especially on pavement. I trust my Italian and American frames which were cold-set 25 years ago and have continued to take the unimaginable stress of my porky body. But I didn't imagine, and had rarely heard of seatstay or chainstay bridges giving way while cold-setting. I always assumed the stay bridge brazes would hold and the stress was well-distributed. At least my Mondonico has a biconical seatstay with the thickest point at the brake and rather thinner down at the dropout.

More than the loss of value of a manipulated frame, I worry about older folks like me breaking bones in case a frame gives out somewhere. My broken wrist from a fall on the ice (in front of an LBS!!!) several years ago is not an experience to be repeated

Yes, it's not a rocket, but it can be critical to safety. But hypocritically I keep riding and have no plans to sell all my frames in favor of new product. In fact I bought the Park tools I can use to cold-set my Trek 720. I especially like the one that looks like a Game of Thrones weapon.

mstateglfr 

prostate check!

Road Fan

Hi, Dave (Golden Boy), GREAT 720! Want to ask, what is that saddle? It looks like a leather upper on a plastic or foamed base, and perhaps carved to reduce the skirts? Interesting in any event!

scarlson 

I wouldn't worry. It'd have to be a pretty strange failure to:
a) not be visible after the frame is spread
b) fail catastrophically. At least it should creak first, and steel fails quite gracefully.
c) fail in a way that causes a crash.
I've seen frames crack in the seat stays and chain stays and these cracks cause some odd handling and creaks to say the least, which gives the rider warning long before anything catastrophic might happen. The wheel stays where it should be. I can't really fathom a safety issue, which is why I didn't mention it. I am sure it has happened, once (think the cliché about monkeys on typewriters eventually will write Shakespeare), but who knows the other factors involved (ignoring creaks and changes in handling is not a good idea).

Because you're smart and you trust yourself to notice if something goes wrong, before it hurts you. That's not hypocrisy. It's a basic survival skill.

mstateglfr 

Not dave, but he has a Brooks Cambium on the bike. Its a rubber formed shell with fabric topping. The C17 is a super common size and about the effective width of a Brooks B17. The Cambium series comes in multiple widths(19, 17, 15, 13) and with cutout or not.
The original ones(i have 2) like this turn a dull gray on top because the dye wears out. New C17s that are 'weather proof' have a slightly different top fabric and stay black.
Super comfortable, at least for me.

non-fixie 

Not Dave either, but since I have one of those Cambium saddles (see the Vista Islena above), I thought I'd chime in. It is a beautiful saddle, but much less slippery than a leather saddle. YMMV, but for me that means it is less comfortable, and it won't be coming with me on multi-day trips.

bikingshearer 

FWIW, I would not want brifters on a loaded touring bike. For me, the optimum solution on a loaded touring bike is indexed barcons with a friction option. That gives you two-hands-on-the-bars shifting (a very good thing) with the option to go friction if something gums up the brifter. I've done some self-contained touring, including crossing the US, and I am here to tell you that things go wrong on tour. The longer the tour, the more likely something will require repair or replacement. As much as humanly possible, I want stuff on the bike that I can either repair on the road or have a viable work-around at hand. If a brifter stops indexing, you're kind of screwed. If a Shimano indexed barcon stops indexing, you have a friction option to keep you going.

I love and use brifters, so this is not an anti-brifter missive. I just don't think they are the best thing for your intended application.

One other piece of advice: figure out what the lowest gear you think you will need will, and be sure you have at least one lower than that. Better to have and not need than to need and not have.

The Golden Boy 

Yes! It's a Cambium!