a_d_a_m

A little bump for y'all.
Sutras are still rolling in, apparently.

My LBS just texted and said mine is stateside and will be here next week.

Grampy

Hi, Have a 2021 on order since August. I'm in Canada but I'm hoping this means good news for me too....

a_d_a_m

Here it is.

ndrose

Beautiful bike

Nyah

Looks great. I'm glad to see that it no longer has the bogus rack that it had previously been spec'ed with.

Grampy

Thanks for sharing the pic. Its a beauty . What size frame is that?

a_d_a_m

54cm

a_d_a_m

I installed a kickstand today. Not sure if this will work on older Sutras as I’m told the rear brake hardware is different on the newer ones.

AlanK

I don't think that's the stock rack. The pic on the Kona site looks like the same rack it's had for at least a couple years. The one in these pix is definitely better.

I just did about a 40-mile ride today. Very nice, smooth and comfy. While not the lightest, it's about as bomb-proof as bikes get. I think I might switch out the SPD-pedals to simple platform ones. The cleats don't seem to make much difference and I prefer to wear the same footwear for cycling and walking.

a_d_a_m

It is the one that came with the bike...but yes, it is different than the one in pictures and on the older models.

rekmeyata

The tires on the Giramondo suck! LOL!! but at least that's something I can change out myself quickly enough, I will be ordering a pair of Schwalbe Marathon Supremes for it. Those freaking Kendas weigh 1,600 grams EACH! The weird thing is though they do seem to roll pretty good till you start climbing a grade, but I don't need a tire that wide either, so I'll be getting the Supreme 700x32 for the front and 38 for the rear. Really the Kenda tires are only 5 mm larger than the tires on the Sutra, and depending on the manufacture there may not be any difference in width when mounted on the rim.

I'm not bouncing the bike off road, and I doubt you could notice the difference in QR vs TA, that was a bunch of snake oil the bike marketing people are pushing. They've use QR for not only off road fast down hill racing for years without failure, but they've also used them for years on real heavy exhibition type of touring without failure, so I'm not remotely concerned.

I haven't found any compromises other than the tires, saddles, no fenders (but I got those cheap) and it came with no pedals, the saddle was a cheap piece of crap I already replaced, the pedals I didn't care because I had a set I took off my crunched touring bike. So I got Tubus racks front and rear in exchange for those no big deal compromises, I was gladly willing to accept that for the $300 I saved, actually I saved more because I didn't have to buy front racks and rear racks, yes I know the Kona came with a rear rack but it's aluminum, it won't hold up long to loaded touring with the entire load bouncing up and down before a braze cracks, its sort of common with aluminum racks.

If you look at the specs the two bikes are almost identical, same components except the Masi comes with much better gear ratios for loaded touring so I didn't have to swap my gears out.

I but I do much prefer mechanical disk brakes over hydraulic, they are far easier to field service than hydraulics are, and both bikes came with the same brakes except on the Masi the front rotor is larger at 180mm than on the Kona which uses 160mm, so mine will have a bit more surface area for cooling on the front, but for this year Masi came out with the smaller 160mm front rotor instead, not sure why. Speaking of that, my dealer said that when it's time to replace the rotors is to use the TRP rotors and not some other brand, he said the TRP rotors are a tad thicker than other brands of rotors and thus will last longer and not warp.

AlanK

While QR are fine, the TAs are durable and simple, which I prefer. Sure some of it is marketing, but QR were originally designed for racing so wheel could be changed quickly. That's obviously not a concern for most riders.

The Sutra wheels seem significantly better as well. They're decent quality 36 spoke Formula hubs with WTB rims, while the Giramondo only has 32 spokes with generic hubs and rims (Brev M? WTF is that?).

The Giramondo does have better gear ratios for loaded touring. I actually wish Masi would've left off the racks and spec'd the bike a little better for about the same price. The reality is many people buy these bikes mainly for commuting and only tour occasionally so letting the rider select their own racks makes sense.

rekmeyata

Yes, I know, QR are the most complicated things to operate, it takes me over 4 hours just to open one, then I have to figure out how to close it which has taken me another 4 hours, whew.

You realize that the WTB ST wheels that you have are not sold on WTB website? That's because they are a very low end wheels set just like the Brev M's are and are packaged wheelsets meaning they get packaged as OEM with bicycles, and those WTB wheels came with the bottom of the barrel Formula hubs which are also on my wheels, they just renamed them Brev M. And since the Brev M wheel is more aero than the MTB ST's they don't need as many spokes, I gone bikepacking on them with about a total of 280 pounds (including camping stuff, bike, and me) and the wheels never needed truing. Brev M is a component product line of Masi and is an actual brand. So both of our wheelsets are nothing to write home about.

AlanK

Still, the Sutra set has 36-spokes, while the Giramondo has 32. I agree, neither rims are exceptional, but the Sutra gets this edge for the additional spokes.

So in sum, the Sutra has a better saddle by a mile, better wheels, and significantly better tires, while the Giramondo has better racks and moderately better gearing, though the difference isn't huge. Everything else is basically the same. I do see your point. With the Giramondo it's fairly easy to replace the tires and saddle to make it an exceptional touring bike.

How much do you weigh? Unless you're really heavy, 280 pounds seems excessive. I weigh about 160 and probably won't ever carry more than about 40 pounds of gear.

Tourist in MSN

I am so relieved to learn that I am not alone in taking a full day to remove a wheel and replace it with those complicated QR mechanisms <insert roaring laughter here>.

I think it was in large part because there are people that thought the quick release lever was there for leverage when you rotate it clockwise to tighten without needing a wrench. Someone I worked with, I was shocked to see her tightening her wheel that way, she did not realize it had a cam operated tightening mechanism. Thus, the through axle so that a moron can't screw it up.

It was not very many years ago when Trek had a recall on their bikes, some people that had not figured out how to use a quick release left it loose and the lever could lock up a front wheel.
https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2015/tr...-release-lever

I suspect that the manufacturers jumped onto through axles so rapidly was not for performance but for liability reduction.

That said, a friend of mine that rides the lightest high performance mountain bikes says that on his full suspension bikes he can feel better handling with the through axle making his bike frame stiffer. But that does not really appear to be a thing on road bikes that have seat stays anchored to a frame seat tube.

I was helping a friend of mine work on his trike which has a rear through axle. I am so happy I have conventional wheels with skewers.

rekmeyata

If the rim is a deeper rim the rim is naturally stronger thus requiring less spokes. It use to be back in the day of box rims, which they still make, it wasn't uncommon on known touring bikes from the 80's to be sporting 36 and 40 spoke rims, but those were box rims and more spokes were needed to support heavy loads. So that's why my bike has fewer spokes than yours, one however isn't better over the other, it's just that with a narrow wall rim like yours you need a few more spokes than a deeper wall rim like mine. This is why you'll see those really deep CF wheels and they may only have 21 spokes, a combination of the deep wall rim and fewer spokes make the wheels more aero, so I guess my wheelset would be more aero then yours, but since both of our wheels are so cheap I seriously doubt I have enough aero advantage over yours to make it even remotely noticeable.

The 85 Schwinn Le Tour Luxe I was using till someone decided to sideswipe and I crashed and bent the fork, had 40 spoke wheel on the rear and 36 on the front, as does a 84 Schwinn Voyageur that I also have, that bike I found in a dumpster and doesn't fit me, it's a tad large so I'm pretty sure my grandson will get it since I think he will exceed 6 feet in about a year, so I'm saving it for him. That dumpster bike was covered in some sort of black grayish goo, it took me 4 cleanings to get that crud off, the darn bike is in near mint condition! I just have to replace the brake cables when my grandson is ready.

I weigh 175, I carry about 60 up tp 70 pounds of gear and water, the bike currently weighs 35 pounds including the stupid heavy arse tires and racks, so that brings the total to 270 to 280. The Schwalbe Marathon Supremes I want to get when they come in stock will only weigh 600 grams which is a 1,000 grams each less than my current Kenda tires, that will be a reduction of just over 4 pounds in rotational weight...of course now there has been controversy about whether or not rotational weight vs static weight is important! I have no clue anymore, they keep trying to confuse us with science, but 4 pounds is 4 pounds so I'll take it. The Kenda tires that I have were actually made for E bikes, why Masi chose those tires I'll never know, but I haven't gotten any flats with them yet, and they're not showing any wear, which isn't bad for a cheap tire, but they are heavy and that's what I want I to ditch is that weight. Even though your Schwalbe tires are the same price as my Kenda tires, I think your Schwalbe tires are probably the better tire even if it's just weight alone and nothing else.

Nyah

A recent example of why QR-disc is ready for the dustbin of history:
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...ial-pooch.html


As for the rim being the important part of a wheel's strength, that is false. You can have the strongest rim in the world but it won't have any effect on the spokes. Having more spokes is better than having fewer. People with minimal spoke count are taking a risk that would be very stupid for touring.

rekmeyata

I took delivery of the Masi, after comparing features and price I think the Masi was the better deal, it was cheaper by almost $400 which is why it made for a better deal. I got the bike in March of 2020 just a day or two before the big bike rush hit and bikes just disappeared!

The wheels on the Masi and the Kona are both just cheap heavy OEM wheels, yes the Kona has 36 spokes instead of 32 like the Masi, but I've done some bike camping on the bike, and even took it on some rough off road stuff to see how the rims would fair, and there has been zero issues with the rims, haven't even had to true them. However I kind of hope they do fail so I can have excuse to get a set of better and lighter touring wheels! LOL. I read some stuff that says that a slightly deeper dish wheel with less spokes is a bit stronger than a lessor deep wheel with more spokes, and I read it the other way around, so unless I send an email to Peter White and ask him I don't know, but Peter White wouldn't have a clue about cheap OEM wheelsets. On the surface if everything is equal, more spokes makes a stronger rim, but beyond that it gets rather gray. But like I said, both use cheap OEM wheels which means cheap OEM hubs, so an upgrade in that area would be good thing for both bikes.

The Masi also came with some stupidly heavy tires called the Kenda Drumlins, these things were made for ebikes and weigh 1,600 grams a piece! While they are wearing very well and no flats, which they shouldn't get flats with bricks being used as a puncture resistant belt! I have to put on lighter tires and I'm leaning toward the Schwalbe Marathon Supremes which will save me about 1,000 grams each tire, but right now Schwalbe is low on stock. I also be going down to a 700x32 on the front and a 700x38 on the rear instead of 45 wide tires that are currently on the bike, just too wide for my needs, I'm more interested in reducing rolling resistance and weight then I'm with low PSI and comfort. I even got on the Adventure Cyclists forum and asked other touring people there and they all felt 28mm tire would be fine for touring on, so I might also go with 28 on the front and 32 on the rear, I haven't decided yet.

Look, as far as QR goes, I'm not concerned, I had an older 80's era touring bike and did camping on it and never had an issue with older QR's, the newer QR's are stronger than the older ones, and people have done expedition touring, hauling a lot more weight then I do and they've used QR's for many years, so again I'm not remotely concerned.

One of the glaring things that the Masi had that the Kona didn't use was a 180mm disk in the front like the Masi and a 160mm in the back vs 160mm all the way around as the Kona uses. I think a loaded bike that will someday have to come down mountains in hot weather the larger front rotor should stay a tad cooler, and keep brake fade lower, and prevent the rotor from warping...but TRP rotors are the thickest in the industry which also helps prevent warping according to my LBS mechanic whatever he knows!

The Masi also came with a lower gear range on the front so when I do have climb mountains loaded I won't be hurting my old knees as much! But even on a different bike the ring gears could be changed out to do the same thing.

Had I bought the Kona I would have to paid extra money and bought the Tubus racks front and rear which would have been expensive at around $200 for both front and rear; though I did have to buy fenders but those were only $49, so $400 difference in price plus another $150 for racks to go with the Kona bike. I don't think whatever slight compromises that the Masi made was heavily outweighed by the Kona especially since Kona made compromises with the racks and brakes, I just simply don't think there was $550 dollars in compromises, maybe $100 at the very most. I can't call the front chainrings a compromise with the Kona because chainrings would cost the same amount of money no matter which bike they were going to be used on, but for me I didn't have to pay extra for gears right out of the batters box so that saved me at least $35, so now the bike price difference is pushing the $600 range.

I would say that if you don't mind spending an additional $600 or so then get the Kona keeping in mind that the wheels are cheap just as they are on the Masi, but if you want to save some money then the Masi is the only way to go. By the way, for the model year 2021 Masi has opted not to offer the 180mm front disk rotor, they reduced it to 160mm, not sure why because it didn't cost hardly anything extra for the larger rotor, it seemed like a dumb move to me.

AlanK

Agreed. And if I ever need to rebuild the wheels with a better rim, 36 is stronger with minimal weight penalty.

TAs are another reason I went with the Sutra. In the long run they're probably better w disc brakes. Since the industry is moving in that direction I'll probably have better options in the future with the Sutra.

The Giramondo does have better gearing, but the difference is pretty minor. The cassette gearing is the same for both bikes. The smallest chain-ring on the Giramondo is 24; 26 for the Sutra. A difference of 2 teeth doesn't mean much. Overall the Sutra's gearing is too high. Even on a moderate decline I don't use the highest gears, but overall it's fine.

As I said, they're both great bikes, but the Sutra's TAs seem less susceptible to obsolescence.

a_d_a_m

242 miles on my Sutra and the bottom bracket has shat the proverbial bed.

Oh well, it was time for a derailleur adjustment anyway...

ndrose

Yikes. What exactly happened? I have been wondering about manufacturers having QC problems in the pandemic.

a_d_a_m

No idea. My first adult bike (from 2017) had the same problem - busted bottom bracket inside of 300 miles. That bike now has 3k trouble-free miles on its bottom bracket. I'm guessing improper install at the factory and the shop didn't double check it, so I'm going to let them fix it.......

AlanK

Yikes! Sorry to hear that. I'd guess I have about the same mileage on mine and it seems fine. Hopefully it's not a consistent issue. I think BB failure is uncommon, so yeah, maybe it was poorly assembled. I'm just getting back into cycling, but did quite a bit of it when I was younger. I rode bikes many thousand miles and never had BB failure.

rekmeyata

I'm sorry to hear that too. I think like another poster mentioned that due to pandemic bike companies were probably running low on certain parts and put whatever they could find on to rush bikes onto the market place, you should be able to tell by looking at the BB and comparing to the factory specs. Kona should have covered that replacement under the year warranty.

a_d_a_m

LBS took it apart and found it had gotten loose but the parts were not faulty. Back together and running fine now.