sunburst

My son wants to upgrade his road bike with some carbon wheels. It's an alum/carbon bike with an ultegra group and recently added FSA carbon wing bars. It's about 9-10 years old, a 10-speed. This is a bike he likes a lot, and rides a lot, and he's not ready to buy a new bike for a few years out. His current set are Mavic Aksium Race, with some 700x23 Gatorskins, which he will occasionally take offroad on some hardpack.

He does not race, but does the occasional long group ride, and fast recreational/training rides 2-3/week, usually in the hills around San Francisco, so, through the rough streets of SF, across the GG bridge (wind!) and into the Marin headlands. He loves to climb and descend. His pre-work ride is 26 miles and has about 2K feet of climbing, for example. Oh yeah, his weight is ~155lbs. I doubt there will be much riding in the rain (unless he gets caught out) but the bay area can be quite foggy/dewy, especially since he goes out very early. These wheels will not be for commuting.

We've been looking at various wheels, but he has a discount on some Zipp Firecrest clinchers. He's thinking 303 up front (due to the wind) and 404 in the rear. It's looking like he could get these for ~$1100.

He also considered the Campy Bullet 50s, mainly for the price and the alum braking surface. I see these advertised at around $750.

I read a god-awful review of the Zipps from a team who had multiple and repeatable problems with spokes and hubs (even tires blowing off after the rim heats up!), and the team had plenty of support and rebuilds from Zipp. But as is often the case on the internet, it wasn't clear when the review was written. Finally, I noticed the comments were 6 years old.

So, I'm wondering how the current versions are: reliability, durability, braking issues?
Also, what should he expect performance-wise?
And while we're at it, tires? I was thinking some variant of the new Michelin Pro4.

GlennR

I have 14,000 miles on a set of 303s and not a single problem. They are still straight and true. Much better than the Eastons I had on my previous bike

valygrl

I have a Zipp 303/404 combo that I've ridden as my race wheels for the last 5 years - I leave them on all summer and train on them too. They seem to be fine - although as a light person I don't really give them much of a reason to fail. They completely suck in the rain - as in, no brakes - and with all the steep descents you have around there, I probably would at least keep an aluminum-brake-surface wheel set around for wet days.

The primary benefit you will see is weight and aesthetics. In your son's situation I might consider a really nice light aluminum wheel set, the cons of wind and carbon brake performance seem to outweigh any aero benefit, which since he isn't racing is pretty meaningless.

I run Michelin Pro4s, 23, and like them.

OTOH, the aesthetics are really much improved over skinny aluminum wheels.

GlennR

I'm 205#

cyclebycle13

search the zipp recalls on their hubs. happy reading

sunburst

Thx for the feedback, as you have the same setup he's interested in. And I've been concerned all along that he may not see/feel much benefits for the type of riding he's doing currently - not enough to justify the expense.

I assume if he switches between carbon and alum wheels, he would have to change pads as well ... yes/no? Or do those carbon pads work OK with alum?

What are some good alum brands/models to consider? I have some 9-10 year old Mavic Ksyrium Elites that came on my only modern bike, and I see some very mixed reviews on them also, with rear wheels cracks, etc. A couple of guys got only 2K miles before failing, another guy is getting 24K miles and counting.

In the mean time, I will inquire whether this wheel discount applies to other brands as well. As far as aesthetics, black wheels are a must, imo, which should be easy to accomplish. Everything about that bike is black.


yes, I see. Even some very recent Zipp wheels have hub problems. Skewers too.

bikebreak

I rode 303 Tubular rims for 3 years, the rims are fantastic, aero and light. My set with older hubs was about 1255g (1265 after the hub upgrade). Braking was very good and still decent in wet conditions


Any tire blowing off issue would be limited to clinchers on long or winding descents with aggressive brake usage. The increased heat could increase pressure in the tube and cause problems...
Tubular tires do not blow off, and rims are about 100g lighter per wheel.


If you are riding in hilly SF and Marin I would prefer tubular, and prefer 303 over 404. 404 would be a nice triathlon wheel but not for hills.


If you must ride clincher look into the 202 firecrest, they are close to 1300g vs 1500+ for 303 and 1600+ for 404

indyfabz

MELENSTEIN LIGHTWEIGHT WHEELS ftw

bikebreak

You can use the carbon pads on alloy rims, but if slivers of aluminum get into the pads they will tear up the carbon when you switch back. So you need to check the pads when you swap, or get something like the Hed Jet with alloy brake track. Or (best options) get a rain bike with alloy wheels for weather and a sun bike with carbon.

msu2001la

Don't use the same pads for carbon and aluminum. You'll just end up ruining your carbon wheel's brake tracks.

It takes like 2 minutes to pull the pads out and swap them, and you probably have to make some brake adjustments when swapping wheels anyways.

Chi_Z

zipp use high temp resist resin but it also makes the rim brittle. I broke my zipp 303 front rim after a pinch flat. Def not good as daily trainer, I would go for cheap chinese carbon rim with good hub like white industries, if the rim breaks then it is only $120 compares to $900 for zipp.

datlas 

Agree with this.

Pro tip: You don't even need to screw in the little screws on the brake shoes, that can cut your swap time down to literally 30 seconds.

Danny01

I have a pair of 2017 Firecrests. The bearings in the 77/177 are smooth and roll forever. Braking is non existent in the rain. My chinese carbon wheel brake 10x better in the rain.

If he can get a brand new pair for $1,100 and doesn't ride in the rain, I don't see why not. After having owned these (I paid a bit more), that's probably the upper end of what I would pay for a brand new set.

If I was in the market for deep section wheels right now, I would get these. Powertap GS (Dt 240 hub + power meter) power meter, 55mm carbon fairing, aluminum braking surface, and more aero than Zipps all for $1,200. What a steal!

rubiksoval

He will go faster by keeping his current wheels and switching the gatorskins to anything else.

GP4000s and the like can get him more free speed than zipps.

If it's the bling factor he wants, I'd look at companies like Boyd, Martindale, Williams, etc. Much more value for the money and no issues with exploding hubs and recalls that I'm aware of, unlike Zipp who has an issue every other year it seems.

rubiksoval

If I were you or your son, THIS is what I would get. Far, far, far superior braking, similar to identical aerodynamic properties, very similar weights, and WAY better value.

You can get the Hed Jets for 899 at times, usually around 1099, though.

If you can spring for the Hed Jet Blacks...

rubiksoval

Similar experience. I've broken a Zipp 303 on a manhole cover in a crit and a couple of years later a 404 on a manhole cover in another crit. Suffice to say, I don't use Zipps anymore! They don't like impacts (though most carbon wheels don't, to be fair)!

Noctilux.95

I don't know why, but hardly anyone here in the states considers Campagnolo Bora Ultras compared to Zipps, Enve's, Roval, and Bontragers. As owner of the excellent Zipp NSW 404's, I can tell you the Bora's are superior in every way, minus braking. They are 50mm aero clincher that weight 1400 grams and can be had through UK retailers for about the same as the Firecrest, and significantly less than the top Enve's and Zipp NSW's.

bikebreak

clincher or tubular?
I've hit some nasty nasty stuff on the tubular rims without problem

valygrl

THat is an epic deal, I wish i needed that kind of wheelset right now I would totally get those.

Danny01

For those who recommend Boyd, Williams, etc., would you choose them over Firecrest's for the same price? On the UK sites, Firecrest's coincidentally go for the exact same price as Boyds.

sunburst

Lots of good suggestions, but at this point, we've heard too many negatives about carbon, especially braking problems, and we've got hills around here. With some future bike upgrade with disc brakes, we'll revisit carbon.

Had a long talk yesterday with a bike shop employee about it (who sells Zipps). Coincidentally and independently, my son got advice the same day from a local pro rider.

He's thinking the Zipp 30 Course alloy wheelset with tubeless Maxxis Padrones or Specialized Roubaix. Would welcome any comments about this approach. Same deal, he would not be paying retail for the Zipps, or the tires.


rubiksoval,
duly noted. He had been running some Vittoria Rubino Pro's on his stock wheels (which I know is a durable tire, not a performance tire), but when we switched to the Mavic Aksiums (purchased from a neighbor for $40), I put on a new set of Gatorskins that I had picked up at a swap meet. This made sense to me, given the streets of SF, which can be very rough. I had already told him about GP4000s, and Pro4s, so we were going in that direction already with a carbon wheelset. Personally, I know nothing about tubeless, so I can't even advise about that. The reviews of the Padrones and Roubaix that I've read aren't promising however, imo.

He does like to take the bike off-road onto hardpack from time to time, so maybe the tubeless will have some advantages there.

jordanair45

I'm in the same area as you. Came in to say zipps are fantastic. Reynolds assult wheels are best value.

I would recommend campy Zondas as a great all around wheel. Especially for climbing and a nice aero profile.

GlennR

I have 303s on my road bike and 30 Course on my cyclocross bike.

Two totally different applications and the 30 Course are disc specific.

sunburst

yes, I have to wonder about the 30 Course recommendation he got. When I read the reviews, it seems much more suited to a cross bike and wide tires.

GlennR

Yes, the 303s are on a full carbon bike with 25mm and the 30 Course have 32mm tubeless.