franklin-and-forester-quotes-in-a-dutch-context
07-18-13, 04:52 PM
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Door zone free bike lanes can work very well in a denser urban setting where there is sufficient "critical mass". They are not so useful on rural roads, fast arterials, or highways.
07-18-13, 10:00 PM
#52
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Just noticed you are from Texas... the only place I have seen the Share the Road signs posted on the interstate freeways and addressing sharing the road between motorists and motorcycles. (there may be other states that do this, but I AM familiar with Texas due to family there).
The reason I responded to you in particular was this line: "The bureaucrats have an idyllic fantasy that cycling is pedaling at speeds just above walking pace and limited to short distances;" which was in response to the line in the post you responded to: "any reasonably fit cyclist on a decent bike should be able to maintain 20 mph." And then lastly this comment: "they foster inequality between cyclists and motorists."
So it was all a response to a thread of argument that I saw to which I decided to lay out my thoughts.
A true vulnerable user law would be a nice thing... and frankly I had no idea that motorcyclists were campaigning for such a thing.
I have to agree with you wholeheartedly regarding bike lanes... they are nothing more than a poor bandaid to a system that needs some real revamping. That said, I'd rather see a bike lane than nothing more than a "share the road" sign. I'd much rather see a road network that takes all vehicles and persons into mind. But having toured through Texas, I can tell you that there are vast stretches of road there that will never see any more improvement... and knowing the Texas attitude of "Don't Mess with Texas" (which means more than don't litter) I know that most Texans frankly don't give a cr@p about anybody not driving a pickumup truck.
See if this road seems familiar as a common sight:
Click to enlarge, obviously. That is a typical Texas farm road... yup there is a painted shoulder line, and to the right of that line is one mean rough surface... and these roads line the state. How'd ya like to be taking the lane just beyond that crest as someone comes upon you at 65 or 70MPH?
The reason I responded to you in particular was this line: "The bureaucrats have an idyllic fantasy that cycling is pedaling at speeds just above walking pace and limited to short distances;" which was in response to the line in the post you responded to: "any reasonably fit cyclist on a decent bike should be able to maintain 20 mph." And then lastly this comment: "they foster inequality between cyclists and motorists."
So it was all a response to a thread of argument that I saw to which I decided to lay out my thoughts.
A true vulnerable user law would be a nice thing... and frankly I had no idea that motorcyclists were campaigning for such a thing.
I have to agree with you wholeheartedly regarding bike lanes... they are nothing more than a poor bandaid to a system that needs some real revamping. That said, I'd rather see a bike lane than nothing more than a "share the road" sign. I'd much rather see a road network that takes all vehicles and persons into mind. But having toured through Texas, I can tell you that there are vast stretches of road there that will never see any more improvement... and knowing the Texas attitude of "Don't Mess with Texas" (which means more than don't litter) I know that most Texans frankly don't give a cr@p about anybody not driving a pickumup truck.
See if this road seems familiar as a common sight:
Click to enlarge, obviously. That is a typical Texas farm road... yup there is a painted shoulder line, and to the right of that line is one mean rough surface... and these roads line the state. How'd ya like to be taking the lane just beyond that crest as someone comes upon you at 65 or 70MPH?
I'm a native Texan. I thought "share the road" originated here, but really have no true idea, and presumed/hoped other states advocated for it as well. Wanting to verify some of my earlier claims, I discovered San Antonio adopted the 3 foot rule, not Texas...governor vetoed. I apologize for my misstatements, between all of the various news reports on these issues, it's easy to get confused.
I'm actually quite fortunate that my city is a strong supporter of bicycling. During the last several years bike share was implemented, and there's been an exponential increase in the number of cyclists in the greater downtown core. As a major tourist destination, bike share has also been especially popular with tourists. It's also conducive to cycling that, despite being a major city, San Antonio has retained it's small town feel. With exception to the high-speed suburbs, I feel vehicular cycling in San Antonio is relatively safe...there's minimal on-street parking, major arterials are 4 lanes or 2 extra wide lanes, and many motorists are exceptionally considerate. Perhaps a large reason I'm for vehicular cycling is that, at least to me, the greatest threat is not being seen...something I believe bike lanes and curb hugging don't address, whereas sharrows are a subtle reminder there may be a cyclist ahead.
Regarding the picture, as I'm just a yokel, I'm not sure what you mean by "click to enlarge", lol. You may not know it, but some of these rural interstates are at 80/85 mph now. Rather than intimidating, I view your picture as serene. Yes, the chip-sealed shoulder is quite rough, but with lowered tire pressure it's a non-issue. While riding in rural areas like the picture presented, I take the lane to be more visible to approaching motorists, I might even swerve a few times within my lane to be more visible, then as they near to pass, depending on conditions, I'll either move to the right tire track, or ride in the shoulder. It might seem a bit much, but it works for me. I know many roadies just ride in the shoulder entirely, some places that's best, other places you'll just blend into the roadside scenery. Another thing is that I'm often able to hear approaching vehicles from at least a 1/4 mile away, but I suppose many listen to music instead.
Contrary to many peoples belief, as long as you're looking ahead, there's minimal danger in cresting hills. The exaggerated fear is likely in response to the only experience many cyclists have in this regard, two vehicles closing in on one another at 70 mph...yep, that's very scary, though quite different than a cyclist cresting a hill at 12(?) mph while hearing an approaching vehicle before seeing it, and possibly a cyclist who only crests hills while riding on the shoulder...let alone, roadway design generally minimizes blind crests anyway.
Your mention of farm roads definitely illustrates the bicycling infrastructure problem...it's impossible to put into place everywhere. It also highlights there being more than one type of environment that cyclists ride, which I think many of us forget. The way many riders speak of cycling, I can't help but feel they think there is only one riding style for all conditions, when in fact, and possibly my favorite thing about cycling, is that it is so adaptable.
Last edited by Bike Rat; 07-18-13 at 10:04 PM.
07-19-13, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Bike Rat
Regarding the picture, as I'm just a yokel, I'm not sure what you mean by "click to enlarge", lol.
Aware of rural interstates, would tend to avoid those on a bicycle. I actually rode across Texas on hiway 180 back in 1981 to Fort Worth from Hobbs NM as part of a longer tour.
"Another thing is that I'm often able to hear approaching vehicles from at least a 1/4 mile away, but I suppose many listen to music instead." Agree with you there... have noticed the same thing in many other rural locations, such as Baja, Arizona, Utah, and of course Texas... you can hear cars approaching from quite a distance off.
As far as cycling infrastructure, I think it generally belongs in cities as an alternative for cyclists to avoid high speed wide arterial roads... and I mean real infrastructure, such as wide well designed paths as bike highways interconnecting areas of town just as the arterial roads do. In inner city areas where speed limits are 30MPH or so, nothing is needed except to educate motorists and cyclists that they must share the roads... same thing in residential areas.
07-19-13, 10:01 AM
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This could all be done by following the Copenhagen model and teaching "road use and sharing" in public schools along with the 3 other Rs. School/governments et. al. fail the American public by ignoring this bit of education and expecting 6 weeks of "drivers ed" to be sufficient for a life long activity.
07-19-13, 11:05 AM
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This could all be done by following the Copenhagen model and teaching "road use and sharing" in public schools along with the 3 other Rs. School/governments et. al. fail the American public by ignoring this bit of education and expecting 6 weeks of "drivers ed" to be sufficient for a life long activity.
07-19-13, 12:14 PM
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The thing is, it is NOT just a cycling issue... otherwise we would not need signs like this:
I'm gonna keep harping about that damn sign as every motorist with a license should already know this. Why do we have to tell them again?
I'm gonna keep harping about that damn sign as every motorist with a license should already know this. Why do we have to tell them again?
05-28-14, 11:13 AM
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it was amusing to see the incredulity to my comment that i would never think of biking 1 km (in the other thread). its almost as if the dutch (and danes) have forgotten that walking is often a better option than biking. in fact, i prefer to walk shorter distances (1-3 km) because i spend so much time in the saddle that i am concerned about my bone health.
05-28-14, 01:57 PM
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Well, what should one expect, given American society? Motordom has always wanted, and demanded, that cyclists have only rudimentary traffic skills, and bicycle advocates demand that bikeways be designed for people with no traffic skills. What? Training cyclists? You might be training more John Foresters!
05-29-14, 07:38 AM
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Well, what should one expect, given American society? Motordom has always wanted, and demanded, that cyclists have only rudimentary traffic skills, and bicycle advocates demand that bikeways be designed for people with no traffic skills. What? Training cyclists? You might be training more John Foresters!
06-03-14, 11:12 AM
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I think John is referring to basic "driving" skills training for cyclists, so that they understand their rights, rules and such things as destination positioning. Most cyclists however are also licensed drivers... thus should already have the basic "driving" skills.
Thus the real issue is better driving training for all... the best thing we could do would be to introduce road use and driving in public schools, in a way that even the youngest folks are exposed to the basics and older students build on that knowledge in follow up classes... just as we do for other skills such as math. Driving and road use are life long activities, and should carry as much weight in our public schools as any other subject... especially since the lack of knowledge in other subjects is not likely to lead to 30,000 deaths a year.
John likes to tell us that we can't do Dutch style cycling infrastructure... Does that also mean we can't do Dutch style education... which does indeed begin in lower grades and teaches the rights and responsibilities of road use.
Thus the real issue is better driving training for all... the best thing we could do would be to introduce road use and driving in public schools, in a way that even the youngest folks are exposed to the basics and older students build on that knowledge in follow up classes... just as we do for other skills such as math. Driving and road use are life long activities, and should carry as much weight in our public schools as any other subject... especially since the lack of knowledge in other subjects is not likely to lead to 30,000 deaths a year.
John likes to tell us that we can't do Dutch style cycling infrastructure... Does that also mean we can't do Dutch style education... which does indeed begin in lower grades and teaches the rights and responsibilities of road use.
Last edited by genec; 06-03-14 at 11:17 AM.
06-03-14, 02:18 PM
#62
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Prove mastery of bicycle skills before being allowed on a motorcycle, then master that before a car? I wish.
06-04-14, 07:31 AM
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06-04-14, 07:54 AM
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Licensed drivers should know this, and should not have to be reminded of their responsibilities... but apparently the mere 40 hours of drivers ed and years and years of bad driving habits have caused so many motorists to think that they own the road that they must be reminded of their responsibilities on a regular basis. (that sign is seen quite often in my area)
Perhaps several semesters of driving training (starting with the basics at the elementary school level--thus bicycling) might teach a generation what "share the road" really means. And hey, maybe kids can start riding bikes to school again. (a very rare sight around here)
We teach "english" to english speaking students... why can't we teach "road use," a life long activity, to American Drivers?
06-13-14, 11:37 AM
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But if we are to ride our bikes in the manner of all vehicles, then why would we need different training than that for rivers education? Not saying that drivers education is adequate, just that if you believe in riding in a vehicular manner, there should be no additional training needed over or different for that of operating any vehicle.
06-15-14, 10:02 AM
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But if we are to ride our bikes in the manner of all vehicles, then why would we need different training than that for rivers education? Not saying that drivers education is adequate, just that if you believe in riding in a vehicular manner, there should be no additional training needed over or different for that of operating any vehicle.
06-15-14, 10:53 AM
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But if we are to ride our bikes in the manner of all vehicles, then why would we need different training than that for rivers education? Not saying that drivers education is adequate, just that if you believe in riding in a vehicular manner, there should be no additional training needed over or different for that of operating any vehicle.
07-18-14, 10:05 AM
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I've always enjoyed this forester quote, and it can be taken in either the dutch or the American context of bicycling.
"But, take care not to aggravate the conditions by blocking too much of the road so that the motorist from behind has no place to go but through you." 6th ed pg 302.
"But, take care not to aggravate the conditions by blocking too much of the road so that the motorist from behind has no place to go but through you." 6th ed pg 302.
07-18-14, 10:15 AM
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See if this road seems familiar as a common sight:
Click to enlarge, obviously. That is a typical Texas farm road... yup there is a painted shoulder line, and to the right of that line is one mean rough surface... and these roads line the state. How'd ya like to be taking the lane just beyond that crest as someone comes upon you at 65 or 70MPH?
Gene, there's a forester quote for that.
"Take care not to aggravate the conditions by blocking too much of the road so that the motorist from behind has no choice but to go through you. On two lane roads where visibility is cut off by curves or hills, or there is considerable traffic coming the other way, keep FAR TO THE RIGHT if there is sufficient room for a motorist to get through between you and the centerline. This gives the motorist a through route that is safe for you, and avoids IMPEDING and ANNOYING the motorist." 6th ed pg 303.
to paraphrase that for you, Gene on two lane roads with hills, curves, or significant oncoming traffic, ride FTR- far to the right- to avoid annoying, impeding the motorist or causing them to have to run you over.
so simple and so elegant a solution right out of the book -"FTR." I believe this is not a solution in a dutch context, but the effective methods scribed out for the american roadscape.
07-18-14, 12:28 PM
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This problem is alleviated with forester techniques in an expansion of one of my favorite forester quotes i just mentioned.
Gene, there's a forester quote for that.
"Take care not to aggravate the conditions by blocking too much of the road so that the motorist from behind has no choice but to go through you. On two lane roads where visibility is cut off by curves or hills, or there is considerable traffic coming the other way, keep FAR TO THE RIGHT if there is sufficient room for a motorist to get through between you and the centerline. This gives the motorist a through route that is safe for you, and avoids IMPEDING and ANNOYING the motorist." 6th ed pg 303.
to paraphrase that for you, Gene on two lane roads with hills, curves, or significant oncoming traffic, ride FTR- far to the right- to avoid annoying, impeding the motorist or causing them to have to run you over.
so simple and so elegant a solution right out of the book -"FTR." I believe this is not a solution in a dutch context, but the effective methods scribed out for the american roadscape.
Gene, there's a forester quote for that.
"Take care not to aggravate the conditions by blocking too much of the road so that the motorist from behind has no choice but to go through you. On two lane roads where visibility is cut off by curves or hills, or there is considerable traffic coming the other way, keep FAR TO THE RIGHT if there is sufficient room for a motorist to get through between you and the centerline. This gives the motorist a through route that is safe for you, and avoids IMPEDING and ANNOYING the motorist." 6th ed pg 303.
to paraphrase that for you, Gene on two lane roads with hills, curves, or significant oncoming traffic, ride FTR- far to the right- to avoid annoying, impeding the motorist or causing them to have to run you over.
so simple and so elegant a solution right out of the book -"FTR." I believe this is not a solution in a dutch context, but the effective methods scribed out for the american roadscape.
07-18-14, 04:16 PM
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There's three main lane positioning choices from the book- the forester cyclists lane width rule suggests 1) to the right of the traffic, 2) just inside the lane. And there's also the "far to the right" so you avoid annoying the motorists and they're forced to run you over.
"Here then, is the cyclist's lane-width rule; on wide roads, ride just outside the traffic lane- not along the curb, but about three feet from the cars. On narrow roads, ride generally just inside the traffic lane, allowing room for a car to pass you by by going partly over the far lane line.
pg. 295, forester, EC, 6th edition
"on narrow roads, ride generally 'just inside the lane." I don't know about you, B Carfree, but 'just inside the lane' is synonymous with riding near the curb or edge of the road.
don't forget there's also the 'FAR TO THE RIGHT' mentioned earlier.
At the right of the traffic, just inside the lane, or 'far to the right' so the cars don't run you over.
Your choice.
Now, keep in mind i did not write this advice, just trying to put some forester quotes into a Dutch context-but I'm not sure if that advice is even relevant to the Dutch!
You choose. How those lane positioning choices would play out in a dutch context remains to be determined. I've always seen evidence that when the dutch ride the roads and not the infrastructure, they're typically much more in the lane.
YMMV.
"Here then, is the cyclist's lane-width rule; on wide roads, ride just outside the traffic lane- not along the curb, but about three feet from the cars. On narrow roads, ride generally just inside the traffic lane, allowing room for a car to pass you by by going partly over the far lane line.
pg. 295, forester, EC, 6th edition
"on narrow roads, ride generally 'just inside the lane." I don't know about you, B Carfree, but 'just inside the lane' is synonymous with riding near the curb or edge of the road.
don't forget there's also the 'FAR TO THE RIGHT' mentioned earlier.
At the right of the traffic, just inside the lane, or 'far to the right' so the cars don't run you over.
Your choice.
Now, keep in mind i did not write this advice, just trying to put some forester quotes into a Dutch context-but I'm not sure if that advice is even relevant to the Dutch!
You choose. How those lane positioning choices would play out in a dutch context remains to be determined. I've always seen evidence that when the dutch ride the roads and not the infrastructure, they're typically much more in the lane.
YMMV.
Last edited by Bekologist; 07-18-14 at 04:19 PM.
07-30-14, 03:10 PM
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...there's a forester quote for that...
"Take care not to aggravate the conditions by blocking too much of the road so that the motorist from behind has no choice but to go through you. On two lane roads where visibility is cut off by curves or hills, or there is considerable traffic coming the other way, keep FAR TO THE RIGHT if there is sufficient room for a motorist to get through between you and the centerline. This gives the motorist a through route that is safe for you, and avoids IMPEDING and ANNOYING the motorist." 6th ed pg 303.
gah! one of my least favorite forester quotes.
i stopped paying attention to the imagined emotional state of motorists decades ago. and if it's safe for me to really "take the lane", i tend to take the whole lane (e.g. the left side or center).
oh...and welcome back bekologist.
08-01-14, 06:34 PM
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Take care, Spare wheel!
"Take care not to aggravate the conditions by blocking too much of the road so that the motorist from behind has no choice but to go through you". - al least, according to forester's POV!
I seriously doubt many dutch feel suffer such inferiority when in front of traffic. I've seen high levels of equity with motor vehicle traffic exhibited by the Dutch.
I just can't picture many dutch families feeding their kids such low-nutrition pablum.
"Take care not to aggravate the conditions by blocking too much of the road so that the motorist from behind has no choice but to go through you". - al least, according to forester's POV!
I seriously doubt many dutch feel suffer such inferiority when in front of traffic. I've seen high levels of equity with motor vehicle traffic exhibited by the Dutch.
I just can't picture many dutch families feeding their kids such low-nutrition pablum.
08-24-14, 02:47 AM
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It's rather amusing really.
When in traffic, Dutch people will generally ride towards the right side of the road, because it's the considerate thing to do, so they rarely find themselves in front of traffic In turn, drivers will give them more than enough space, and don't door them. Close passes are rare. Happens to me maybe a handful of times per year (=5000+ kilometer) There is however a crude concept of taking the lane when circumstances require it. One notable example is when mothers take the lane to shield their children while teaching them how to ride: