awfulwaffle 

Hiya folks,

So I just cracked 200 miles on my first road bike (Gravity Liberty 3), and I'm wondering if some of you bike fit experts could give me some advice. When selecting the frame size, I had to go with the smallest available due to the fact that I am a fairly oddly proportioned 5'8" thanks to my stumpy-legged potato picker lineage. With only a 29" standover height (and barely that), I went with the only frame size that I knew I'd be able to actually stand astride at stop lights and such. Since according to the website the frame size I chose is for a 5'2-5'4 person, I expected the top tube to be a tad short for me and that I'd have to compensate with a longer stem. Having ridden the bike for a bit now, though, I feel like my natural inclination when riding on the tops of the bars is to have my hands 2-3 cm behind the hoods. I don't get any back pain or anything when I am riding on the hoods themselves, but I find myself having to support a bit of my weight with my hands when I lean that far forwards, which I've been told is not something you're supposed to do regularly. I do get a bit of shoulder stiffness at times, and I feel it may be attributable to that. I should also add that I am pretty comfortable riding in the drops with the current stem length.

So I guess my question to the experts is as follows: do you think that I need to go down from the 100mm stem that's on my bike now to something in the 70 mm-80 mm range, or have I just not had enough time to adjust to riding a road bike? All my riding up to this point has been on mountain bikes, so I was thinking that maybe I'm just used to the more upright position and I'll become more comfortable on the hoods given enough time.

Thanks in advance!

fronesis

What is the effective top tube length of your current bike?

At 5'8" with 29" inseam, you have a VERY long torso. Think about it this way: a lot of people who are 6' will have 34" (or higher) inseams, meaning they have a torso SHORTER than yours.

Given only what you've told us (height and inseam) I'd expect you need an "overall reach" number (Wrench Science/Lemond method) that was roughly 65-69cm. This could translate into anything from a 54 TT frame to a 58 TT frame. How long your stem should be depends, of course, on the effective top tube length, along with riding position, flexibility, comfort, etc.

Given that you say you are on a "small bike" it seems unlikely to me that you'd truly need a shorter stem. My guess is that your reach is SO small now that you aren't really getting stretched out at all on the bike, but are instead trying to revert to a mountain bike sitting position. I'm totally guessing here, but my guess is that, if anything, you need a longer TT/longer stem, i.e. MORE effective reach.

BikeFitPro

Move the saddle back a little and see if there are any changed with your hands.

awfulwaffle 

Thanks for the detailed response, it really got me thinking! The effective top tube length of the bike I'm riding is 51.5 cm. I just looked up the Wrench Science method and took some measurements, and it appears that the overall reach (distance from center of seat tube to the center of the handlebar end of the stem?) on this bike is right around 61 cm. When I add the distance from the center of the stem to the point where my hands rest 'naturally' on the bars, this value goes up to 68 cm. The part of the hoods where the web of my hand between the thumb and index finger should rest is right at 71 cm. Does this indicate that I should try out a slightly longer stem? Also, is there an approximate angle that my back should be at when I'm 'stretched out' properly? It may also be important to note that I've got relatively short arms too (68 cm from top of shoulder to the center of my palm).

On a related note, I took the bike on its longest ride to date this morning (30 miles), and I think you may be on to something in terms of me trying to revert to the position I got used to riding my mtb. I was a tad uncomfortable at first, but as we went along I got more and more used to riding in the forwards position. I still had to revert to putting my hands a bit behind the hoods at times (probably about 5 miles of the ride total) so that I could better support my upper body without using my arms, but it was definitely better than I recall on my last ride. I'm starting to think that core strength is playing a role here, and that as I ride the road bike more and my ability to support my upper body with my core improves, it may become easier to ride on the hoods.



I've got the saddle set up with the whole 'knee over spindle' thing in mind, which I thought was the saddle positioning approach one was supposed to use. Won't moving it back a bit disrupt this, and also increase the need to support my upper body on my hands (since I don't seem to be strong enough to do it all the time at this point)? It couldn't hurt to try scooting it back a tad on my next ride just to see what happens, however.


Thanks again, guys!

BikeFitPro

I know it may seem counterintuitive but it is possible moving the saddle back can reduce hand pressure. Plumb bob and knee over toe...maybe it is an OK starting point but I suggest now leaving it behind and moving on. It really is sort of old tradition with little to no backing but it is usually not bad. However it may not be great.

sreten

Hi,

Don't go for a shorter stem, that would seem a mistake. Lower your bars and possibly move the seat back.

On a road bike with the pedals level lifted a little off the seat you should be balanced over the pedals with
very little weight on your hands, one way or the other, your midriff supporting the bulk of your torso.

Balanced over the pedals your butt should be very near where it usually is.

rgds, sreten.

My road bike fits. My folder is just wrong but still very rideable, barends help a lot.

fronesis

Unless I'm misunderstanding how they do it, total reach OF THE BIKE is just effective TT length plus stem length.

The total reach that YOU NEED is determined by the numbers you plug into wrench science's calculator. You say you took some measurements, but you don't tell what "overall reach" that Wrench Science recommends for you. Did you get that number from them? – because that would tell you how much reach they recommend and you could compare that with your bike.


These numbers are NOT a part of what wrench science's calculator is talking about –you are overthinking (i.e. overmeasuring) here. They assume "standard bars" with the hoods in the standard locations, so the numbers they give are JUST effective top tube + stem length. No need to measure the location of your hands.

I, for one, can't answer that question unless we know what overall reach wrench science recommends.

My general sense is that the bike you are on is TOO SMALL. Even with a 120mm stem and no spacers, you will have a overall reach on that bike of 635mm. My GUESS, given your height and inseam, is that wrench science will recommend an overall reach longer than 635mm.

Some say 45 degree angle; some say whatever is most comfortable; some say as low as you can go and not feel pain.

IF (and I'm still guessing here) your current bike does not have enough reach, then the problem isn't the ANGLE your back is at, but just the fact that you can't reach out fully and start to flatten your back. Here's a test. With your hands on the hoods, do you feel like you can pull the bars and bike toward you, flattening your back, and helping you to translate power to your legs and the wheels – thus speeding up. For me, if the reach is too small, I can't really reach forward over the bike and pull it toward me as I accelerate. There's no room to activate the lat muscles and to engage my core, and in some ways (ironically) with the bars too close I feel like I put MORE weight on the bars precisely because I can't activate my core.

awfulwaffle 

Oh I see now, I just went with the first diagram I saw when I looked up the Wrench Science bike fit method, didn't realize there was actually an interactive calculator. Having punched in all of my measurements, it appears I need a bike with an overall reach of 64.32 cm. Since the bike currently has a 61.5 cm overall reach, am I correct in thinking that a 120 mm or 130 mm stem with a bit of saddle position adjustment would do the trick?


I went out and tried this maneuver a few times, and I can do it. However, I can definitely see how I would be able to do it better in a riding position that is less upright than my current one, as it does feel like I'm on the very edge of not having enough room to execute it.

This is essentially what I was told when I asked a fellow at the LBS. I think I may have just gotten it a little confused, thinking that less reach would allow me to support myself with my core muscles.

So, the verdict seems to be that I need to get a longer stem, not a shorter one. I'll give it a bit to see if anyone else chimes in, but I think I'll be picking up a 120 mm or 130 mm stem tonight. I'll report back as to whether it feels better to me or not.

Thanks for the help, everyone!

himespau 

Does your lbs have a program to try a couple of used stems to see what works best before you drop some cash on a new one? My last one didn't (I've moved since then), but I found 120, 130, and 140 mm stems online on clearance for ~$30 shipped. I tried them all out for a while and then decided that 120 really was the best for me. They were ugly as sin, but I'd been planning on buying a nicer one once I found what felt best to me. Instead the looks grew on me, so I just kept what I had.

kingsqueak

Height of the bars may be an issue too as I've recently discovered. Particularly if you have lower back or hamstring flexibility issues. I've found that I can't bear nearly the amount of bar drop from the saddle that I used to. Try raising the bars to saddle height or close to it if they aren't already.

A picture of your bike from the side would be useful to see what you have to work with.

awfulwaffle 

I'll have to check out a few of the stores in my area to see if anyone does that, that would indeed be better than just taking a guess. I did see a few 120 mm and 130 mm on sale for right around $30 shipped recently, so I can always snag a 120 and a 130 and then sell one on CL if nobody around here does a program like you mentioned. As far as ugliness goes, the uglier the better! The bike's not much of a looker and neither am I

Unfortunately, my handlebars are already as high up as they can go. I rated a 5 on the flexibility scale used in the Wrench Science calculator, so while I'm not super flexible I don't think I'm particularly terrible either. A shot of my bike as it is set up now:

himespau 

Keep looking around. I think the ones I got were 4 year old models on clearance at jensonusa or somewhere, but for $8 each before shipping, I figured it was worth the investment. Some bike shops might have some take off stems (that they pulled off someone's bike when they wanted something different) in a used parts box for cheap. Wouldn't hurt to ask if you let them know you're just wanting to try a few different lengths before you decide which one you want to go with. There are also adjustable angle stems that might be able to put you up higher (or stem riser devices) if that's what you end up needing. So many options, it really helps to have someone there in person with you to see you on the bike.

awfulwaffle 

Wow, $8 apiece would be something. Take-off stems are a good idea, I recall seeing some at the shop nearest me when I was looking for a different one for my mtb. Perhaps I'll ride down that way and see if they'll let me try a few out.

Yeah, absolutely. I had my roadie friend help me do the initial fit where we got my saddle position dialed in, but he's no bike fit expert by any means. I just kinda feel like I'd be a time waster if I walked into the LBS and asked them to check the fit of a bike I didn't buy from them, ya know? That's mostly why I'm trying to figure it out on my own.

Bandera

Level your saddle.
Your pic above shows a downslope that will prevent proper support & pitch you forward.
A level saddle set to the correct height & in the rails in the proper relation of knee/pedal spindle will be a good fulcrum for pedaling allowing the rider to slide back on the hills and forward "on the rivet" for big efforts.

Get to a flat spot, lean the bike against a vertical support and use a carpenter's level to well "level" your saddle.

Ride many miles/hours to adapt.

-Bandera

awfulwaffle 

It's only the slightest downslope, do you think it really makes that big a difference? I can pitch it up just a few degrees more without experiencing groin discomfort, but any more than and I'll have to stop being obstinate and actually invest in some chamois shorts. I'll go play with it some more now and see how it feels.

Bandera

That would pretty much be a waste of time, effort and $ with a yield of dubious results.

Bike fitting is not a Secret Society dark art or sudden flash of individual insight. This path has been well trodden by serious folk who have quantified the process into several Fitting Systems that are well proven over decades of application, you do not have to re-invent the wheel.

If you are too shy to take your machine & yourself to an experienced local fitter, who after all will charge for the service regardless of what bike you own, there are well proven Fitting Systems that are available in published form in English. Research one and go thorough All of the fitting steps to adjust self/components as necessary and proceed.

-Bandera

Bandera

No, I just made that up since I have nothing else to do.
Going to play around sounds best for you.

As Sponge Bob Square Pants once said:
"Well, good luck with that."

-Bandera

fronesis

They could go higher with:

• Stem flipped up
• New stem with even more upward angle
• New, longer stem with upward angle

awfulwaffle 

flattening it out did seem to help, though I'll have to go on a lengthier ride to know for sure.

Also a good idea, dunno how I didn't think of that. Thanks!