Kevindale

For comparison, here are two early Tommasinis that are on display in the shop in Grosetto. These are about the only images I have of them (one is pulled from a Tommasini video, in which the bike was shown for a few seconds), so they are woefully incomplete.


In this gold 1968 ‘THOMAS’, you can just see the same simple ’T’ lug cutout in the DT/HT lug, and it also appears to have some kind of embossing on the fork crown. I only noticed these details after I saw the FB blue bike in post 1, and went back and checked this photo. Note that this gold bike has flat beveled SS caps - the mid-late 70s bikes all seem to have had fluted SS caps.




In this 1972 example, you see the same TT pump peg as in the blue FB bike in post 1. It also has the flat beveled SS cap treatment as above in the 1968 gold bike. Note also the distinctly different ‘THOMAS’ stencil-painted DT graphic, which appears to be very rare (I have to check, but I think I've only found a couple of Tommasinis with this DT graphic). It also seems to have the Romanesque T in the ST center decal, so either this one got new decals long ago, or this 'Romanesque T' was used earlier than I’ve been led to believe. When I zoom into the photo, I think I can see in indication that it also has a cutout on the top point of the seat lug, but that’s quite speculative.

These are the earliest Tommasinis that I have some kind of date for. I'll post a few more bikes in the coming days, but wanted to get a discussion started on the FB blue Thomas/Tommasini. Thanks for any input!

gomango

A former builder/shop worker for the brand now works at a racing shop here in St. Paul.

I'll ask if he wants to weigh in on these early dates.

He's very familiar with Prestiges, Super Prestiges and Sintesis.

Make sure that the brand is aware of your efforts. I'm sure they could be quite helpful as well.

Kevindale

That would be great! Do you know what years he was there? I emailed the shop months ago regarding serial numbers, and never heard back. I think I sent too much info for them to parse through! I think I'll try again - it would be helpful just to get some more photos of various frame details on the two bikes in post #2 , as well as any other examples they have that they can connect with a date.

gomango

From our conversation the other day, I would say late 80's to early 90's.

I am buying a bike for my wife, so I'll be in the shop next week.

I'll let you know.

T-Mar

The brakes on the first bicycle are Universal Super 68, introduced in 1968. However it also has brazed-on bottle bosses and the earliest confirmed examples I've seen for these is 1973. The long Campagnolo dropouts do not appear to have the extended derailleur mounting boss with the spring anchor hole for the various Camapagnolo Sport derailleur. The supplement to catalog 16 (November 1971) which still shows dropouts compatible with the Sport derailleurs, so the frame should be post 1972. The long dropouts without the extended boss and spring anchor hole first appear in catalog 17, introduced in late 1974 for the 1975 model year. However, these dropouts were available least as early as the 1974 model year. The short Nuovo Record dropouts first appear in late 1974 but they weren't widely adopted until the Portacaterna version was released in late 1977. Based on these observations, I'd place the bicycle circa 1973-1977.

I'm a bit sceptical about the claimed 1968 bicycle. It has brazed-on bottle and shift lever bosses, while the claimed 1972 has brazed-on bottle bosses but uses clamp style shift levers. The down tube logo on the 1968 also looks to be more modern than the 1972. The bottom line is that I could accept the 1972 but am have a much harder time believing the 1968.

Kevindale

Fantastic! That's the kind of detail I was hoping you'd weigh in with. That gives me useful reference points for several other bikes.

Yes, I'd noted that, too. Also, the "1968" bike has the TT braze-ons for the rear brake cable, instead of clips. Is that another sign of it being more modern (realizing that they're not the type of braze-ons that are meant for both cable housing and cable)?

T-Mar

Yes, I also noted that the '1968' had that the top tube brake cable attachment was via brazed-on stops, as opposed to cable clips or brazed-on tunnels. There's probably some significance but I'm not sure what it is, as these periodically come into fashion then fade.


The front brake also appears to use an Allen key nut but not a fully recessed one. Still, this would be atypical for 1968. and require crown modification. I tried enhancing the picture, to be sure, but had limited success due the PNG file type.

Kevindale

Here's another. This copper-colored Tommasini was listed on an Italian website that seems to be the automotive/bicycling equivalent of Craigslist (Subito). Three mediocre photos, and the bike has been completely "restored." Despite the restoration, I can see it's one of the earliest examples I've found, given the non-recessed rear brake mount, clamp-on shifters, and rear brake cable clips.

Is this the same kind of rear dropout mentioned above? It does have a set of brazed-on bottle bosses, so it's not super early. I'm struggling to see the nuances of the RDO. Do you have a photo of the earlier RDO version that has the extended derailleur mounting boss/spring anchor hole?

I'm thinking this one is 72-77 (and probably more like 72-75, since I've seen a handful of Tommasinis that are clearly from the 70s but have the short horizontal NR RDO, so I know he used this rear dropout).

I put that photo into my Flickr account, so try this link. The photo is not hi-res, since it's a still frame from a web video.

conspiratemus1

I'm not so sure that the rear brake bridge is of that early design. Bridges intended for brakes with long pivot bolts and conventional nuts were often just plain cylinders -- you had to use specially shaped washers on either side of the pivot bolt to mate the brake to the bridge. This bridge shows two flat bits attached onto it. The rear of the brake sits flat against one and the fixing nut is bearing (through a plain flat washer) against the other one. I suspect that if you remove the brake you will find a recess for a modern recessed nut under that washer. This would make it a more recent frame. Consistent with this, it appears that the fork is drilled for a recessed front brake because I can't see a nut showing on the back of the fork in any of the other photos. Granted, the fork could be a later replacement.

-Les

T-Mar

Here's a photo showing the mound shaped extension of the derailleur mounting boss/flat, with the spring anchor hole. Also included are two photos with mounted derailleurs. One is a period correct Gran Sport and the other a later Nuovo Record .In both cases, part of the hole and the top of the derailleur mounting boss/flat extension are still visible above the derailleur.


On frames with chromed dropout flats, the derailleur mounting boss/flat and extension are the same height as the wheel nut flats, so they are also typically wiped clean of paint, exposing the chrome.


In the case of the blue Thomas, the spring anchor hole could be obscured by the bottom edge QR nut but the derailleur mounting boss/flat extension is wide enough that the top should still be visible and I don't see it.


The latest copper colored bicycle looks like there may be part of the derailleur mounting boss/flat extension peeking out, just behind the left side of the D-ring for the QR nut. If so, and since it also has brazed-on bottle bosses, I'd estimate it at circa 1972-1973.

Kevindale

Here's a rare one from the Subito.it sale site - a Tommasini made with Ischiwata tubing, and sporting a decal/graphics set I hadn't seen until recently (I've have since found one similar example, also on the Subito.it site for sale in Tuscany).



Typical Subito crummy photos. It's hard to see the DT decal, but in another example I'll post later it's more clear. 'TOMMASINI" in very plain block letters, open to the background, with I think WC stripes in the middle.



Good view of the head lugs and fork crown. Brazed on shifter bosses.



The Ischiwata tubing decal. I haven't seen anything online about what date range this decal indicates. Non-recessed rear brake nut. Fluted seat stay caps, though slightly different than the ones used with Columbus tubes in the 70s.



One set of brazed-on bottle bosses. When I zoom in on this RDO, I think it's a 1010/A and not the earlier 301/A type that T-Mar showed just above.



A good clear view of the head tube decal. In the other similar example, it lacks the 'THOMAS' and 'GROSETTO' parts.


The seller's proof of authentication! A nice touch.

I recall reading in one of the articles posted here about Tommasini that he had experimented with Japanese tubing and didn't find it to his liking. Here is living proof. Given the brazed-on shifter and bottle cage bosses, I think we're looking at 73 at the earliest. Assuming that is the later type of long horizontal Campagnolo DO, and the non-recessed rear brake bridge, I'm guessing this is in the 74-76 window. When I first saw this decal pattern, I immediately assumed it must be older than the 'THOMAS Racing' downtube style with the round ST/HT decals, but looking at the frame elements that just doesn't make sense. I wonder if in transitioning from labelling his bikes 'Thomas' he tried this decal set which put 'Tommasini' on the DT and kept 'Thomas' on the HT and ST, before going to the familiar Tommasini decals that carried into the early 80s.

Kevindale

You raise a good point that I struggle with - trying to draw conclusions based on photos, without the ability to adjust the viewing angle, or do any disassembly. A lot of the data that I'm compiling are best guesses, and on many of the bikes I catalogue I have a bunch of elements that hang together (i.e., are temporally consistent), with one thing that doesn't seem to fit. In the end I think the Tommasini timeline I'm trying to put together will be good for 2-4 year dating windows, and rarely any more specific than that.

Kevindale

Here's one (link) that I haven't even entered into my spreadsheet because it just doesn't feel correct. It has the unusual decals of the bike I posted earlier today, but little else says 'Tommasini' to me. I've now catalogued about 3 dozen Tommasinis that are from the 1970s, and have never seen a serial number stamped on the seat tube/seat lug. The lugs, seat stay cap treatment, fork rake, chrome socks . . . none of it fits with what I've seen on other Thomas/Tommasinis.




The non-recessed nuts on the front and rear brakes point to this one being fairly early. The fork rake and chrome treatment is very unusual.



This is the real head-scratcher. The '55' may be the size.



1010/A, right, not the slightly earlier kind with the spring hole etc.?


Clamp on shifters.


NDS side.



Is it possible this is a really early Tommasini, from before he began working with Pela? Is this another Italian bike, and someone applied the very rarely seen Tommasini decals? I would love some thoughts on this one.

satbuilder 

satbuilder 

A couple more slides:

Kevindale

Interesting. That BB image is suggestive, but though they are similar, they're not the same. The BB socket for the downtube on the Tommasini lacks a cutout and is "scooped out" along the centerline, while the Firenze has a cutout and a centered extension (not sure what to call that part beyond the cutout). Also, the holes are the same pattern, but are slightly larger.

I checked out the eBay photos in your link. That Firenze is a beautiful bike, but the rear dropouts are unlike any I've seen on a Tommasini. It looks well-made and high-end, but it also looks like it was repainted with less than perfect prep - that rust worm under the paint in the photo of the seat lug would haunt me if it were mine. Anyway, thanks for including this. I've also seen an ad for an Ottusi that was attributed to Tommasini, but I have no idea if it was built by him or not.

T-Mar

The last two submissions by the OP shoe frames with top tube cable tunnels. These are almost certainly newer than the bicycles with top tube cable clips. FWIW, the earliest confirmed cases (non-Tommasini) of cable tunnels that I've seen have been 1976 model year.

Kevindale

That was a working assumption (that bikes with TT cable clips are older than those with braze-on guides), but I've now found several Tommasinis that have cable clips and recessed-nut rear brake bridges, and several with braze-on TT guides and non-recessed nuts at the rear brake bridge. I suppose it could be that those latter bikes (w/ non-recessed nuts) have a bridge that can take a recessed nut, as was suggested by conspiratemus1, but are using a washer and an older style brake caliper. I'm not sure how to be certain about that just from photos, but since it's possible Tommasini continued to sometimes use TT clips even after he started putting braze-on guides on the top tubes of some bikes, I've tended to put more faith in the bikes with the brake bridges showing an exposed nut as being earlier.

The bike I posted with the Ishiwata tubing is an example of one with what seems to be the earlier style brake bridge, along with brazed-on TT guides.

Fourthgrace

Came across these pics: not high quality, but adds to your cataloguing as these early Thomas models are pretty rare.

steve sumner

the earliest Tommasini I've ever seen (from a photo) was dated 72 and used the same
guanticiclo lugs as my 68 Masi Special. this gave credence to the story that during
the 4 yr gap between Faliero doing the brazing and Alberto's involvement with the shop
Grand Crits were made by Pela with Tomasini as apprentice. did he grab some lugs on
the way out? it's the only non-Masi bike I've ever seen with those lugs.