NukeouT

Finding Shimano N groups in 80s catalogs and thinking they meant New 105 and New 600 as a way to abbreviate within the limited space in printed spec sheets. Shimano N105 and Shimano N600 dont actually exist correct?

T-Mar

Yes, that is correct. 105 became New 105 (1987-1989). 600EX become New 600EX (1984-1987) and Dura-Ace EX became New Dura-Ace (1985-1996). In the case of New 600EX and New Dura-Ace, Shimano quietly dropped the 'New' designation from their literature after 2-3 years, once the new group was established with the public.

paulkal

N105 did not exist. There was a 'New 600 EX' group in the 80s.

NukeouT

Sooo... no?

or alternatively it does not matter because if I tell Sprocket users its, for example, Dura-Ace + year they will know regardless of whether I put 'new' on the front.

Im just working to compress the amount of information shown so that text does not wrap to a second line on as many devices as possible.

armstrong101

105 was simply introduced as a new group (I think in 1987). It didn't have an "old 105" predecessor. I think Shimano Golden Arrow is supposed to have preceeded it.

fleslider 

Golden Arrow was the first 105

armstrong101

My point is that Golden Arrow wasn't called 105.

top506

Please see above post.

Top

armstrong101

Are you referring to the advertisement? What is actually in the ad? Golden Arrow or 105 components? I know that bike catalogs in 1987 referred to the 105 group as the "new shimano group". Unless those are Golden Arrow (and not 105) components in the ad, I'm not conceding that because the ad has a Golden Arrow logo in the ad, that that means that Golden Arrow was known as 105, prior to "105" being introduced as a group.

T-Mar

IMO, Golden Arrow is only a nickname used by cyclists to facilitate identification of the group. All the official documentation that I've seen refers to it as Shimano 105. The nickname is based the symbol embossed onto the components and the colour of fill. If you look closely you will see that the symbol is actually a bow and arrow and may be homage to Archery, an early Shimano derailleur. I can't ever recall seeing any Shimano documentation refering to it as Golden Arrow. In fact, a lot of period Shimano advertisements actually print the bow and arrow symbol in blue, which would be a major marketing faux-pas if the official name was Golden Arrow.

top506

FWIW, I've had these in blue, red, and black as well as gold.

Top

JohnDThompson 

Other way around. "Golden Arrow" was never an official product designation; it just referred to the graphic, much like Deore XT has become known as "Deer Head."

T-Mar

Good example. Another is "600 Tri-Colour". The official designation is "600 Ultegra" even though Ultegra doesn't appear on the components. However the "tri-colour" nickname stuck because of the small three coloured bar that appeared on the components.

armstrong101

OK. But is this a 105 derailleur?

Miele Man

I was working at a very large bicycle shop in Toronto, Canada when N600 came out and also when the 105 groupset came out. The N in the 600 stood for New to differentiate it from the earlier 600 EX stuff. The 105 stuff was always referred to as Shimano 105 or simply 105.

There are so many variants of 105 now since it was first introduced that it gets confusing when someone says they have 105 parts.

Cheers

Seizedpost

Slightly OT: did the number 105 come from something, or did they just like how it sounds?

NukeouT

This thread went a bit off the rails and smack into another question I had

600 is Ultegra
Ultegra was 600
Whats the more correct way to refer to Shimano 600 Ultegra parts to compress down the number of letters?

A: 600
B: Ultegra
C: (must be described as 600 Ultegra)

T-Mar

Yes, it is. Here's a cropping from the original 1983 Shimano 105 brochure showing the derailleur in question and stating Shimano 105 in the specs.

armstrong101

OK everyone here is right. My bad.

I have a 1987 Bianchi catalog that refers to Shimano's "new" 105 group. So I thought that's when 105 was introduced.

Darth Lefty 

I love how Shimano technical documentation has used the same font and numbering format for more than thirty years. Standards are helpful!

T-Mar

Think of Dura-Ace, 600 and 105 as family names, equivalent to Smith, Jones and Brown. EX, AX, New EX and Ultegra become the equivalent of forenames such as Bob, Jim and Tom. If I just said Smith you wouldn't know if I was referring to Bob Smith or Jim Smith. If I just said Bob, you wouldn't know if I was referring to Bob Smith, Bob Jones or Bob Brown. But if I said Bob Smith you would know exactly whom I'm referring to. The slight difference is that in Shimano's world, the patriarch of the family is only referred to by surname. Also, in the late 1990s one of the families changed their surname (600 became Ultegra). At about the same time big brother took over and did away with forenames, so that we had to start referring to series numbers to distinguish members of a family.

There is no proper way to compress 600 Ultegra, which is why it is often referred to by the nickname of "tri-colour". The only other method to identify it is by the series number which is 6400. So, sometimes you'll see Ultegra 6400 or Shimano 6400.

The Golden Boy 

Redesign of the components and the replacement of the bow and arrow with the numbers 105.

Was there an SIS version of 105 after the golden arrow stuff but before the 1987 105? Or was "new" 105 that @armstrong101 has in the Bianchi catalog actually from 85/86?

I know "Light Action" was 6 speed SIS in 1986- I would think those components sit lower than 105.

The Golden Boy 

Except for that brief period of time that Shimano used 600 and Ultegra together, like introducing the new family line and associating it with the old name.

ramzilla

I've got this odd Shimano RX100 groupset on an 1988 Fuji Club. I can't tell the difference between it and 105.

~

T-Mar

It's an easy mistake to make. As an adjective, "new" could be used to describe a a group which never existed before or the replacement for an existing group. However, if you look at the Shimano literature and advertisements, it always appears as "New" or "NEW", with the capitalization signifying it is part of the proper group name and not a simple adjective.