350htrr

Ah, now there's the basic misunderstanding of how EU systems are legislated, not just by power available... It's also how it's applied... Just because you turn the crank, it wouldn't make an EU E-Assist bicycle move. You ACTUALLY need/must put pressure onto the pedals to make the bicycle move. My BionX is 100% EU compliant. what that means is, if I don't pedal and by that I mean actually pedal, not just rotate the crank, meaning I have to be putting pressure onto the pedals or I go nowhere... For instance on level 1 If I put 10Lbs of pressure onto the pedals I would get 35% of assistance. Meaning 3.5Lbs of pressure added onto my pedaling effort... If I only put 1Lbs of pressure onto the pedals I would only get .35Lbs of assistance... Thus making my E-assisted bicycle still a bicycle. IMO Yes it is still motorised but I still have to supply most of the effort to make it move.

A bear chasing one is not funny...

BBassett

It's not a misunderstanding, it's a poor design that allows no other options to the rider. You are describing computer software that employees a torque sensor to operate the motor. Like using an automatic transmission rather than a manual. I like having full control of what happens in the motor and how the watts are dolled out. I understand that antique BionX of yours is "EU compliant", translation - underpowered. I can use a torque sensor, or throttle or pedal assist if I chose. Can you pick out the operative word in that sentence? I don't want to be limited by someone else's antiquated ideas of what an ebike is or isn't and how they Can be used. I just want to be able to ride my bike as they have since the beginning. Come on Karl... stop trying to make things slower and more expensive. If you are out riding someday and a kid zips past you giggling, feel free to jump off and shake a fist at the little bugger. How dare he?!? A bike is a bike, a Moped is a Moped and OUR federal government has clearly defined my ebike.

Definition: Consumer Product Safety Act defines a "low-speed electric bicycle" as a two or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals, a top speed when powered solely by the motor under 20 mph (32 km/h) and an electric motor that produces less than 750 W (1.01 hp). I can ride anywhere it is legal to ride a bike.

....and I bet it is funny to the Bear.

350htrr

and... There we have it... Once the E-Bikes proliferate to the point of where people in general notice them, and realize what is happening... Boom, The Laws will get changed, and, ALL E-Bikes, assisted or not, 250 to 750 get to be mopeds... That is my concern, obviously not yours...

BBassett

Why can't you understand that the definitions have been clearly set?

Bike.
Low-Speed Electric Vehicle. (Type 1) What I ride.
E-bike (type 2, and 3 under California's system).
Moped.
Motorcycle.
Jetson's Jetcycle (I am sure Elon is working on this one too).

"People" aren't surprised by ebikes anymore (or low-speed electric vehicles) and realize "what is happening"... What, Is, Happening? Is there something happening that I don't know about? Cause I am out "there" riding almost daily and I don't See anything happening. But that might be the Thing, that is happening. IDK. You are implying More legislation and regulation is necessary and Looming in the near Future! Why? All we have to do now is follow the system as designed.
Boom!

Roody

AFAIC, you can ride anything you want. But NOT in the bike lane or on the MUP. Those facilities are for human powered vehicles, or vehicles that don't go any faster than a standard bicycle.

And if you're as rude while riding your e-bike as you are when posting on the forum--then you are one of those who gives them a bad reputation.

350htrr

and... There's the rub... Legally, an E-Bike with a 750 watt motor, a one HP motor, can, ride anywhere a normal bicycle can ride. ONCE that FACT hits the average bicycle rider, there will be a pushback, once that fact reaches the average person using those MUPs... NOW we, the E-Bike community have a problem, we WILL, become moped riders... Legally speaking...

andr0id

We'll get Concert Grand size in the US, while Japan gets Baby Grand size.

Dahon.Steve

This would actually bother me about e-bikes.

I get the feeling most people using e-bikes want to ride a bike that will propel them 20 mph but only have to keep the bike in 2nd or 3rd gear in a 16 speed drive train. That would drive me nuts only having to use minimal power while the e-bike launches at top speed. Am I missing something but it looks like you only have to use the low gears to go fast?

By the way, those 3k e-bikes from Giant at my local lbs SOLD! I could not believe they were purchased so fast but people have money. WOW! They sure were pretty!

350htrr

Yes,... I believe you got's it totally backwards/mixed up.. Unless, you have the crank rotation sensor then, you could/would be correct, I am talking about a "pressure sensor"...
Like you surmised, that IS exactly how it would work with a throttle or a rotation sensor, but NOT with a pressure sensor set up. and unfortunately, you are right about most people, they do want to ride at 20+ MPH and only pedal lets say 5 or 10MPH worth of effort...

EDIT; Bottom line, with a pressure sensor type of E-Bike, otherwise known as an E-Assist, you need to put in the effortt to get anywhere... You only get a % of added assistance onto your pedaling effort... No pretend pedaling allowed.

EDIT 2: Pretend pedalling (using minimal power) can happen with a throttle, THAT is a given, or pretend pedaling can happen with a crank rotation sensor, but NOT, with a pressure sensor, thus the EU E-bike laws do not allow throttles, it does not allow crank rotation sensors, IT/they wants to KEEP E-Bikes as E-Assists bicycles, over there, a true version of a regular bicycle that you need to pedal to get anywhere... But with a little bit of assistance, to get over the humps or hills, and get more people riding "bicycles", instead of driving cars...

350htrr

and I thought here we were talking about LEGAL E-Bikes... Not mopeds or motorbikes...

BBassett

I have to admit that you have me terribly conflicted right now. I read thru your reply twice, then went back and read what I had said throughout the thread, and for the life of me I can't figure out what you agree with. It happens so rarely here in BF that anyone agrees with anything I say that I am usually thrilled.... but like I said, you have me conflicted. First, let me answer your questions. Tout Terrain, Panamericana, BaFang 750W mid-drive. A couple EM3ev 30ah batteries. I specifically got the BaFang 750W over other aftermarket BaFang mods (like Luna's), that maximize the power output so that it would conform to the Federal definition of a Low-Speed Electric Bike (LSEB). An LSEB can go anywhere a bike can ride no restrictions or limitations. Unless there is a sign that say's No Bikes, I can ride it.

I have no experience with gas-powered vehicles except legal motorcycles. I Do agree that batteries for ebikes will get smaller and more hopefully lighter but we aren't there yet. It seems to me that we have been fairly stagnant on size and weight reductions but have been increasing capacity in small bumps. I don' think I have seen a 3lbs. pack that I would bother with personally. I actually Do believe and advocate for people to follow all road use laws. The more predictable we all are (Riders/Drivers) the fewer accidents there will be. Yes, some people disregard laws and hopefully, they pay enough in tickets to teach them before someone is killed.

Storage is always a concern where ever you are. The worst is when you are sleeping and hear something (that you can't see) near your bike. I actually like to have the bike under the same tarp I am. There is no electric bikes that can do 55 mph and be legal in any way for the roads. Not my thing, I kinda swing the other way. A bike that can go anywhere and still has an electric motor legally. Legally BandB. We need more infrastructure for bikes in Americas. That infrastructure is designed for 20 to 30 mph Max. A standard bike can be pedaled at 30 mph but not safely on busy bike paths. I average 10 to 15 mph and seldom ride for long at high speeds.

BBassett

I think your Brompton can wear a BaFang. $450 for the motor, a good battery (may have to wear it on your back with that small of a bike), and what it costs to find someone to install it. I used California EBikes, Doug Snyder, to mount mine because I wanted mine done right the 1st time.

BBassett

Oh, ok, yeah! Using the BaFang750W motor is a no-brainer to me. Well, I say no-brainer now but when I 1st started my selection I turned away from the BaFang because it was the least expensive choice. I'm not a snob, and defiantly not rich, but I have learned throughout my life that the least expensive option is not usually the best option. But picking the largest possible motor that still keeps the bike classed as a LSEV is what is important. After looking at every option I could find the BaFang 750W was what I went with and I am happy. There are things that I would change and or modify some, and I think they will address them in the future like a torque sensor. But I love to have full control on how I use the power, how much power is used, and how I chose to activate the power.

I have a FuGoo XL loud-ass blue-tooth speaker on my bike that works really well to alert people that you are approaching. Because the volume increases as I approach it usually doesn't startle anyone when I ride by. The majority of the time people are turning looking and stepping back to let me ride by. Bikers mostly don't like someone on their ass so will either step it up or let me ride by. It is hard for me not to also step it up and pace them up to 20+ mph with full panniers and trailer. I love the speed and I love the looks I get from carbon fiber and lycra riders. But when I am loaded I ride slow and safe because of the mass. It all about distance.

Why aren't you all over the 1000W BaFang? If you think 50mph isn't too fast for a bike and aren't worried about the police or hospital bills that your ticket I think.

3alarmer 

Man Dies After Danville Crash Involving Electric Bicycle

PdalPowr

Too bad,I hope it was quick at least.

Homebrew01

MOD NOTE: The topic is Bikes, Not each other.

3alarmer 

3alarmer 

Gazelle: “We will soon be producing more e-Bikes than regular bicycles”

Electric bicycles emerge as a hot trend in the U.S.

unterhausen

I have a batavus city bike that is now only available as an ebike, which made me sad. OTOH, it weighs so much that pedal assist would be nice. An ebike would make a lot of trips by bike more practical for me, and I probably could go to very few car trips per year if I had one. I spend so much on parking that it's really silly that I don't have one, so I'm working on it. i have commuted by bike a lot, but if I'm running late or it's hot I just drive my car. An ebike would get me to work in about the same overall time because the time walking from the parking lot will be eliminated. Unfortunately, in this area most of the people that would really benefit from an ebike have been priced out of the local housing market and live too far from their jobs to really consider an ebike.

I did want to get the Shimano steps system, but it seems like I'm going to go with a Bafang instead. Just getting the pricing needed for the parts needed a complete STEPS system was a pain, whereas you can just get a kit with the bafang. The downside to the mid-drive gear motor units is that none of the manufacturers seem interested in a standardized interface. Shimano has at least 2, Bafang has 2, and I'm sure the other manufacturers have their own.

Dahon.Steve

[QUOTE=3alarmer;20121914]Gazelle: “We will soon be producing more e-Bikes than regular bicycles”

This is interesting.

E-bike sales are exploding all over Europe. It goes to show you that people are tired of pedaling bicycles and want the motor to do all or most of the work. It's something we've known all along that people want motorized transport than having to use effort.

With e-bike speeds increasing, we are going to see more accidents and some quite serious. They better seriously consider their out dated helmet laws or should I say lack of any!

BBassett

LOL! You obviously haven't ridden an ebike.

Walter S

What makes it so obvious to you?

BBassett

Anyone that thinks an ebike doesn't need the rider to exert effort obviously hasn't ridden one.

Rob_E

@BBassett, do you talk about your set-up in detail anywhere? I'm curious, but I don't want to derail this thread which seems to have weirdly remained on topic.

For my part, I'm happy with any e-bike regulation that caps speed and size at something close to a bicycle, and classes them both together. I understand that people wouldn't like it when an e-bike speeds by them on the MUP, and I agree that it would be annoying, but the same same can happen with a roadie. In my area, MUPs have a speed limit of 10 miles per hour. People frequently go over that by a little, and occasionally you'll see someone sprinting on their road bike at double the speed limit, but not often. E-bikes really haven't made an impact here that I can see. I wouldn't want to see them barreling down the MUPs at 20mph, but I don't want to see anything/anyone barreling down the MUPs at 20mph. And saying, "No e-bikes" only addresses one group of potential speeders. A better solution would be actual enforcement of the speed limit for everyone.

But, man, bring up e-bikes in the Mountain Biking pages and watch the mess that you stir up. For off-road trail, I think it makes sense to talk about how much damage they could do to the trail and/or other trail users compared to a regular bike. Other than that, I don't see why it matters if your bike has a motor or not. But that does not seem to be the prevailing thoughts in mountain bike world.

Every now and then I think about an e-bike. In particular, I've been considering an e-cargo-bike. Getting around on my regular bike is fine, but loading it up can change that fast. And covering the 10-mile circle that includes my home, work, and downtown is fine on my regular bike, but visiting the nearby towns becomes a major time and energy commitment. Those are the times when I miss my car the most. America loves its cars, and I don't think the existence of e-bikes is going to change that without some other, outside pressure, but for people wanting to break away from car-dependency, the e-bike could definitely be a useful tool.

BBassett

Hey Rob, yeah I have talked about my gear all over the place in BikeForums. I think you can just do a search on BBassett and find everything I have written. It's not just MTB'ers that are pissy about ebikes, it's anyone that doesn't actually own one, it seems. People equate what I do with what some nimwit with a 5000w hub motor does because they are both "ebike". Trust me when I tell you it's not the same thing. My primary concern is distance over speed. I use the lowest level of assist that my 750w mid-drive motor can put out and use it as sparingly as possible. What makes people angry is that I can climb places that a MTB rider most likely can't under human only power. I could also hang with most every lycra rider I see if I am not conserving power, a very rare thing. So I become a cheater somehow. Remember that there are 3 types of ebike classifications Type-I, II, and III... using California's definitions. They started with the base (Type I) ebike definition using the federal ebike definition:

Defined: The federal Consumer Product Safety Act defines a "low speed electric bicycle" (LSEB) as a two or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals, a top speed when powered solely by the motor under 20 mph (32 km/h) and an electric motor that produces less than 750 W (1.01 hp).

A Type-I ebike can go anywhere that a bicycle can even if a route is posted "No Motor Vehicles", no license, no insurance, no paperwork of any kind needed. Ride from coast to coast without ID if you want. That's the whole point. You could do it on a horse once upon a time and bicycles had the same benefits.

Now you watch all the non-ebike owners go wild because..... well, I'm not sure why. But they do and will. Take a look at what I have written about my bike, trailer, gear, and if you have any other questions feel free to ask.

Ride safe.