showlow

Just a short warning about HED Ardennes / HED Belgium -- I bought some HED rims as a splurge, based on magazine article reviews of them. My real world experience with them has been a total nightmare. I have 15 years experience as a cyclist/mechanic and have changed hundreds of tires including on tubeless rims, and changing a tire on these rims was borderline impossible. I tried everything to get them to work for me. In the end I emailed them and suggested that maybe there was a manufacturing error in mine. They *basically* admitted there was a fault in the design. This kinda suggests to me that I'm not the only one with this problem. The guy I emailed said he found *one* road tire combination in his experience that worked. He said the next run of rims will be smaller in diameter, offered to rebuild mine when that run comes in, and then said he'd get back to me with an ETA. I was super happy and surprised by this response. I emailed back a thank you. Then they totally ghosted me. I emailed back yesterday and asked what happened and they blocked my email. This is why we need Hambini. Honestly, they could have just told me that they make their rims that tight to prevent burping on road tubeless or something and suggested I kick rocks and I would have been fine with it.

Anyway, if you ever have to change a flat on the road, beware HED rims. Below is my exchange with them. They blocked my email after this...

Hi Tim,

I understand your frustration with this rim. They do fit extremely tight. There will be a change in dimension in the next production run, but for now all of the rims are this way. I successfully changed a flat on a hot day with sweaty hands with the Michelin power competition 25c tire using 1 tire lever so I can personally recommend that one. Vittoria’s are usually very tight. Conti 5k. 25c tire is easier than 23c.



I would offer to get them back and re-build them, but all our rims are from that same same batch. I will look into an ETA for the next run of rims and we could do a rebuild for you at that time.









Nick Vetter | Repairs

O. 651.653.0202
E. nick@hedcycling.com W. hedcycling.com













From: JotForm [mailto:noreply@jotform.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2020 11:30 PM
To: Nick Vetter <Nick@hedcycling.com>
Subject:




Warranty & Repair Request Form



I am a

Retail Customer

Requesting a

Unsure

Please list the type of wheel(s) & describe the issue with your wheel(s)

So... I have some HED Ardennes SL Plus Disc wheels. I got them from Erik's Bike Shop (can provide a receipt). Ever since I've had them they have been insanely difficult to mount tires to. Like, I've changed hundreds of tires and it usually takes me 5 minutes at most to change any tire. These, it can take me upwards of half an hour. I know how to properly change tires on tubeless rims. I know about the drop channel. It's been the same way with three different types of tires, Conti 5k, Conti 4 Season, and Vittoria Terreno. I have also tried two different types of tubeless tape. I have another set of wheels with H Plus Son Hydra rims which are also tubeless ready, and I don't have any problems with them.

Anyway, I have been left stranded twice because I couldn't get the tire off on the road. Today, I was 20 miles from home in 115 degree heat and I had to call my wife to rescue me. I could not, with all my strength, get the tire bead to budge. My thumbs are so sore that I couldn't unbuckle my kids from their car seats. I'm about to give up on these rims, which sucks, because I really like them in every other way. But, I literally can't ride them. I can't trust that I'll be able to get home if I get a flat. Anyway, I'd rather not have to sell them on eBay for a loss.

Here is my thread on bikeforums.net that is evidence that this has been happening a while. Showlow is me. I started the thread.

https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...estions-2.html

Is it possible that these are "defective"? Maybe they are slightly too big somehow? Are all HED rims made this way?

Thanks in advance for any help.








You can edit this submission and view all your submissions easily.

shelbyfv

I think you have misunderstood or mischaracterized the reply. They didn't admit to a design fault, only that they knew they were a tight fit and the next ones would be different. Also, he told you one combo he knew fit easily. He didn't say or even imply that he'd tried others that didn't work. It's surely a bummer that you are having trouble. I'd suggest you try a few different combos and work on your technique until you find something you like. Or sell the wheels and buy something else.

RiceAWay

There are several reasons for this - Tubeless wheels are getting rim height problems that make mounting tires harder But more importantly the cords on the newest tubeless tires are so tight now that they are unmountable especially on some wheels such as the Mavic Kyseriums which do not have a center well.. I had a couple of sets of tubeless aero carbon wheel upon which mounting the GP5000TLR was absolutely impossible. So I bought a couple of tire jack tools from Kool Stop and a Chinese workalike. The end result was that it broke my carbon rim edge and still could not mount the tires. Finally angry beyond speaking I bought a set of Campy Siroccos and an expensive set of Continental 4 seasons tires to try out and they mounted with no problem at all in minutes.

If you had a flat with this sort of tubeless setup along the road as I have done three times, you could NOT fix it yourself. I have now had to call my wife three times to recover me from a dumb flat and she has been able to razz me all the way home. I am done with tubeless anything. The Continental GP5000TLR's I have are very good racing tires. They have very good traction. But because of this they crawl all over the road and have poor directional stability. I looked a a set I was about to replace the other days after only about 800 miles and they you could see the cord through the tread. And I absolutely could NOT mount the new ones. Gatorskins work well to reduce flats but they feel wooden on the road. 4 Seasons look good and unlike the Gatorskins they have sidewall protection. If your route includes some off road travel they are a good alternative. I have to see the way they ride though. Screw Aero and tubeless. I'm not a racer and the difference in speed in the first place is too small to notice. If you are fast and want to see a REAL gain - shave your legs. That will really surprise you. And it doesn't cost $1500 a set. Though I do have a set of well made cheap Chinese aero carbon CLINCHERS that perform well. I've been using Vittoria Corsa G+ that have very low rolling resistance. And though I have been forced through glass patches I've never had a flat on them. They have wonderful directional stability and a nice ride. I had a Time Edge and with 23mm tires on it it was completely unrideable. So I took someone's advice and put Michelin Pro4 28 mm tires on it and it totally transformed that bike into one of the best rides I had up to that time. I really liked the Pro4's as well. Relatively cheap and long lived and with low rolling resistance.

Since you have to carry a tube and stuff with you in case you cut a tubeless large enough that it won't repair and it is then an utter mess to repair, You might as well just use a clincher to begin with.






You can edit this submission and view all your submissions easily.[/QUOTE]

showlow

You might be right. I did end up selling them for a pretty big loss. Felt like a really dumb reason to give up on otherwise really nice wheels, but seriously, they left me stranded twice and I've never been stranded on my bike before.

I​ am mostly pissed and insulted that they ghosted me and blocked my email. I wasn't the one who suggested a rebuild, Nick did, and then he straight up ignored me after that. I want to go full Karen. Also, I want to warn people before they put 1k+ down on these wheels only to find out they are unusable because you can't change a flat on them without special tools or Hafþór Björnsson hand strength.

shelbyfv

Glad you were able to move on. I've got a set of 1st gen Pacenti rims that have thwarted all my efforts to mount tires w/o levers. I've been careful and lucky but really should just get something else.

GlennR

When I was looking to upgrade the stock wheels on my Cannondale SuperX I was looking at the HED, but I decided to get Zipp 30 Course since I had great results with 303s. I put Bontrager AWS2 32mm tubeless on and had to use a tire jack to get them on. Luckily I have 4 winters, about 6000 miles on them and never needed to take them off.

The wheels are bullet proof.

showlow

[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this reply. Echos my anger. Made me feel better. Fwiw I have a set of tubless H-Plus Son Hydras and they're fine. Changing a flat isn't hard at all.

aclinjury

is this the Ardennes+ wheelset based on the Belgium Plus rim?
I have this wheelset and mounting and removing every tire I've ever tried has been easy. In fact, it's too easy, too easy such that getting many tubeless tires to seal is a b*.
Not sure if HED has made any changes to the Belgium Plus rim?

showlow

See? Yes, they were Ardennes SL+ disc. This is why I emailed them. I thought maybe it was *possible* something was different with mine. I wish I could have traded yours for mine. I was using them as my "road only" set on my gravel bike, and I was only using tubes. Your post is evidence that the rim sizing is totally inconsistent.

I'm even more pissed now, to be honest. When I brought my stuck tire in to my mechanic his reaction was "wtf!" when he tried to get it off. He had to use his feet. My wife is a bike commuter. I can't imagine her being able to change a flat with those HEDs even if her life depended on it.

aclinjury

My Ardnenes+ wheelset is the "LT" model in rim-brake version. I bought this set probably close to 4 years ago. Back then, HED hadn't made the disc version of this rim yet. So yes, it's possible that the disc version has totally different specs.

For comparison, I have the Zipp 30 Course wheelset, too, and it's much harder to mount tires on the Zipp Course 30. I need tire levers to mount on the Zipp Course 30. With my Adrdennes+, I don't even need levers, not even for brand new tires.

And I'm glad I didn't bother with road tubeless.

showlow

I wish I hadn't either. I've wasted a record amount of time and money chasing trends with this new bike and the end result has been basically just a PITA. I think my next bike is going to be a titanium canti cross bike with QR.

TiHabanero

"I've wasted a record amount of time and money chasing trends with this new bike and the end result has been basically just a PITA. I think my next bike is going to be a titanium canti cross bike with QR."

This means you are coming around to common sense. Are you ready for that??

Mulberry20

When I think of tubeless for a road bike I see four red flags: 1) A flexible narrow, shallow rim, 2) A flexible tire bead, 3) High pressure, low air volume and 4) A makeshift tube made out of liquid sealant and I wonder what ghoul of an engineer came up with that idea. The marketing people are genius, however.

355Mono

Similar experience with my HED Jet 5's. Near impossible to change. I now carry special work gloves with a grippy palm material. I am now able to muscle the tire back on the last bit, though it's still very tough. The gloves were my last try before giving up and getting rid of the damn wheels.

RGMN

Per HED's FAQ Belguim Plus rims are the same as the Ardennes RIM BRAKE rims (emphasis is mine)
Since the OP had the disc version of the Ardennes they may have been a different extrusion.

I have Belguim Plus rims and they are super easy to mount just about any tire I've had on them.

showlow

Funny. I was super pragmatic and frugal for years. Only buying used bikes and doing my own repairs. This current bike is the first time I drank the koolaid and really went all in on trendy new tech.

aclinjury

after re-reading my post, I wasn't being clear.

What I meant to say is, is the Belgium+ rim-brake version the same as the disc-brake version. And if they are the same, then did HED make a running change in production that affect how tires are mounted? Like you, my Ardennes+ wheels are easy to mount virtually every tire. But apparently, for at least 2 people in here, they are almost impossible to mount. So something changed with these rims.

cheesesandwich

I have the LT rim brake. I've only used gp4000s and michelin pro4 endurance on them. On 23s they are really PITA to install, til I had blisters. 25mm are slightly easier. The wheels are now on my spare bike and I've bought 35mm tires for next use and should be much easier to install.. I think they are great, Shallow but does not go out of true easily. In 4 years only 2 times and its because of some accident. Wheelbuilders seems to like them too.

showlow

This is my theory--People were buying the older runs, and complaining that it was too difficult to get tubeless tires to seal. In response, they made the rim "tighter". I probably bought some of these ridiculously tight rims that are borderline impossible to use with tubes. Now people are complaining they are too tight, myself included. Either that, or their manufacturing isn't consistent. Either way, I have no issues with my H-Plus Son rims, so I'm just going to stick with them. My Hydras set up tubeless just fine, but if I need to mount a tire it's no harder than any other rim. Maybe just a little tighter.

Just going to stay away from HED from now on. Especially since their customer service sucks.

aclinjury

This was what I was thinking too. It would be hard for these rims to change due to manufacturing fault and yet HED not picking up the fault during QA. Hed must have made a running change, and not advertise their change

And yes that's the problem with tubeless rims. Too easy to mount a tire, then it won't seal easily. But if it seals easily, then the mounting will be a b*

RGMN

One wonders if HED did make a change, particularly after you hear about incidents like this with HED Ardennes wheels and Conti GP5000TL tires. Definitely has made me think twice about trying tubeless on my Belgium Pluses.

aclinjury

right. New tubeless ríms nowaday must have this "locking ridge" (the hump) on the inside to lock the tire in place. The "older" HED Belgium rims (that I have) don't have this pronounced hump, there is a hump, but it is not as pronounced as the hump on newer hookless rims (which are designed to use tubeless tires).

But, the hump makes it EXTREME DIFFICULT to remove a tubeless tire too. On my mtb hookless rim, I had to use a damn visegrip to remove a tubeless tire, and thus destroying the tire in the process. Impossible to remove on the trail. And seating the tire takes.... 60 psi. Yeah, good luck pumping an mtb tire to 60 psi on the trail. Goddamn what a crazy idea. I'm now running latex tube in my new tradional mtb wheels with hooks again, screw hookless tubeless wheels. I ran tubes in mtb for decades, no problem! I ran tubes in my 250cc moto, no problem! I didn't lost control my mtb or moto when I'm running tubes, I didn't lose comfort either. But now suddently, I'm told I have to use tubeless on my roadie? Ridiculous. But glad I ditched the brief tubeless experiment I had on the roadie, 2 unsealed flats on the mountains, was enough for me to call it quit, so ok I lied, I did try tubeless, but it was a bad episode of my cycling career that I decided to wipe it out of my memory and pretend I never tried it.

showlow

​​​​​​Thanks for this. Appreciate the commiseration. I only wish it wasn't so hard to find non-tubeless rims. Nobody seems to make them.

aclinjury

currently the craze is "go wide, go tubeless". So wheel manufacturers are compelled to follow this trend, and if they don't bulletpoint thier spec sheet with "tubelss and wide", guys would be like "nah, that's not for me", even though guys ain't running tubeless now they will be thinking, "I still want the option if I want to".
Having said that, my recently purchased Reynold Aero 65, though advertised as "tubeless compatible", is relatively easy to mount a regular nontubeless tire on. And that's all I ever will use. I'd reckon if I were to try to setup tubeless on this wheelset, it'd be a nightmare trying to get the tires to seat due to its ease of mounting a regular clinchers.

for me pesonally, I'd prefer to getting 1 flat every 1-2 years (my area has superb road) but that when I do get a flat i can easily change tube in 10-15 minutes and be done.

showlow

I'll get a flat 2 - 3 times on some rides around here (desert) with regular clinchers and tubes. I'm coming around to tubeless. I have my H-Plus Son Hydras set up tubeless now. I poked a pretty good sized hole in the rear tire the other day. It was losing pressure fast. I haven't learned how to use plugs yet and I was about to pull out my spare tube and throw it in, but then I figured I'd try and let the sealant do its job. I sorta tucked the torn rubber back into the hole and held my finger over it for a minute. Then I spun the wheel around a while, and inflated it back to 50 PSI with my hand pump. Sealed right up and I haven't touched it since except to reinflate a little.

That said, being able to get the tire off on the side of the road isn't a "feature", it's a necessity. There would be situations where I absolutely need to boot a tire, and put in a tube. Those HEDs were just horrible in that situation.