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Dropout Screws Spring Location -- Where and Why?

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Dropout Screws Spring Location -- Where and Why?

Old 09-23-20, 03:53 PM
  #26  
conspiratemus1
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Originally Posted by pcb
. . .
Can you now tell me how I can complain to Big Sucrose for them making it difficult for me to pedal my bicycle as fast as I'd like?
Your question is perhaps rhetorical but in return for your generous thanks it deserves an answer.

The “cholesterol hypothesis” has dominated medical research into heart disease for at least 50 years. It has spawned dozens of drugs sold as “antidotes”, a few of which even work, and can save lives. But the “sucrose hypothesis” has received little attention from Pharma-funded researchers, I.e., nearly all run-of-the-mill medical researchers, because the only antidote to sucrose is to eat and drink less of the stuff (and concentrated forms of its constituent, fructose.) There is no pill. So until recently it was only unfunded cranks and gadflies who talked about it....incessantly. But sucrose makes you fat while bacon and olive oil don’t, now a mainstream idea. And obesity kills.

Don’t complain. Fight back: As a recreational athlete, drink only water. Get your calories and salt from real food that’s not too sweet.
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Old 09-23-20, 03:54 PM
  #27  
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So the springs are actually compression springs to hold the adjuster screw in place. They need to be compressed a bit to work correctly, but they also allow for movement of the screws for small adjustments. In distance racing we used many sets of wheels and some worked a bit better when the wheelbase was longer and others worked well with a more compact set up. I don't really think it matters much where the spring is located inside the DO or outside. But the compression of the spring holds the screw in adjustment while changing wheels. Just my understanding. Smiles, MH
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Old 09-23-20, 05:08 PM
  #28  
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Huret used a crescent chunk of plastic. no threading in the dropout. Only the French.

All the cool cats with 28t freewheels use the adjusters from the short Campagnolo dropouts on the long ones, less overhang, less to bump.
I just bought a bike with the drive side adjuster set back and the extending portion of the screw bent. I can take care of it. Just another task.
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Old 09-23-20, 05:10 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by nlerner
Two words: vertical dropouts

these are cool IF the builder brazed in a washer on the inside to add some thickness.
Harry Quinn did it.
Confente did it.
I'm sure others too.
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Old 09-23-20, 07:47 PM
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Old 09-23-20, 08:37 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by repechage
these are cool IF the builder brazed in a washer on the inside to add some thickness.
Harry Quinn did it.
Confente did it.
I'm sure others too.
Wait, you mean Campagnolo made and sold a part that was inadequate as designed?! Shocking!
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Old 09-23-20, 08:42 PM
  #32  
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What about simplex ! no spring at all ! Those cunning french men
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Old 09-24-20, 10:43 AM
  #33  
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Minor factoid - both the Colnago (Campy horz) and the Caylor (Campy vert) have old Campy SR (82, 84) no B-screw dr's on them. They have each had a wide variety of freewheels on them over the years and have never suffered any sort of shifting woes even tho bereft of dropout screws and the axle all the way back.
And BTW the Caylor does have the washer brazed to the inside on the Campy vert.

have a nice day
Charlie
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Old 09-24-20, 01:10 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by pcb
The upper-end Fujis back in the day were double-nutted, which made perfect sense to me, and then I didn't see any need for the spring. Unless I want a totally period-correct build, I've been using stainless hardware, with a 2.5mm-socket screw, a regular old nut, and a domed crown nut at the end. I'd rather have a milled ring i/o nut against the dropout, like the Fujis had, which are much easier to adjust by hand. But couldn't find a modern supplier. Probably just couldn't figure out the right search term for McMaster-Carr.

The stainless 2.5mm-socket screws are mega-handy not only because they won't rust, but also because driving them into the dropout with a hex wrench means my screwdriver won't be constantly slipping off the end of the screw like it does with regular slotted screws. You can also get them in several different lengths, and tailor them to any particular bike. I don't like too much screw sticking out the back, so I usually use the shortest screw that will give me the adjusting range I want for a particular dropout/frame.

Don't have any inside-slot photos handy, but on the outside of the drop they look like this:



I just run a socket head from the outside with that nut. Who needs a head on the inside? All it is doing is providing a guide to make aligning the wheel before closing the QR easier.

That said, I have two bikes with horizontal dropouts and the screws. I'd have to look to see what's on them now, 4 bikes with horizontal dropouts but two are fix gears with cogs that change regularly so no screws used, My city fix gear has screws that I've tweaked once in the past 5 years, (Chain "stretch".) Makes for easier wheel insertion after flat repairs in the dark and rain.

All those screws need is something to keep them from moving.. And that screw's only function is simply be there when you insert the wheel. Springs, nuts, thick grease, rust - they all work. (Rust can be a pain if you want to change it later so i prefer thick grease.), So, so far from rocket science.

On bikes where I remove the screws, I stuff both ends of the hole with marine grease. (Except my ti bike.)

Oh, the other reason for horizontal dropouts? Well, a vertical dropout bike is a one trick pony, It has to run with a derailleur cage (or you have to jump through some expensive hoops). Horizontal drops? Just fine with or without a derailleur cafe or tensioner. Can run an IGH or fix gear. Everything but disc brakes with no hoops to jump through at all. I spec'd horizontal dropouts on my Mooney, just so I could; knowing I never would. 38 years later I did. I"m back in love with that bike again.

One trick pony - sounds right!

Ben
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Old 09-24-20, 01:17 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by 1simplexnut
What about simplex ! no spring at all ! Those cunning french men
I believe that has a black plastic cylinder in the hole you can see in the dropout. Screw runs through that, Acts like thick grease or beeswax. And yes, in my experience with one bike, it works rather nicely. (I just wish those dropouts were longer. The chain had to be the perfect length to be able to use fix gear cogs 2 teeth apart without messing with it.)

Edit: I see from the post above that's a crescent, not a cylinder. Never looked at mine that closely. (They were on a trashed frame I bought for $20 to be a cheap, light fix gear. Fine scrutiny of the frame didn't happen until I discovered the cracks and then, the emphasis was on fixing them and watching for others. Subtle touches got missed.).

Last edited by 79pmooney; 09-24-20 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 09-24-20, 01:20 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by nlerner
Wait, you mean Campagnolo made and sold a part that was inadequate as designed?! Shocking!
Never figured the logic out other than the forging die price did not match probable volume.
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Old 09-24-20, 01:50 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Steel Charlie
Minor factoid - both the Colnago (Campy horz) and the Caylor (Campy vert) have old Campy SR (82, 84) no B-screw dr's on them. They have each had a wide variety of freewheels on them over the years and have never suffered any sort of shifting woes even tho bereft of dropout screws and the axle all the way back.
. . .

have a nice day
Charlie
A factoid is something that looks like a fact but on closer examination turns out to be false, just as an asteroid isn’t really a star. “Coconut oil is a super-food!” is closer to a bare-assed lie than a factoid but you get the idea.
What you have reported is a plain, straight-up fact, two facts in fact, which I am very glad to learn. Thank you.

Time to test my NR in my only single bike with vertical DOs and see what I get.
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Old 09-24-20, 02:01 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Steel Charlie
Minor factoid - both the Colnago (Campy horz) and the Caylor (Campy vert) have old Campy SR (82, 84) no B-screw dr's on them. They have each had a wide variety of freewheels on them over the years and have never suffered any sort of shifting woes even tho bereft of dropout screws and the axle all the way back.
And BTW the Caylor does have the washer brazed to the inside on the Campy vert.

have a nice day
Charlie
It was routine practice to shove wheels all the way back to accommodate 28 tooth FWs for the Mt Washington hill climb in the mid '70s. (42 X 28 = 40.5 GI. Being a little different, I made up a TA single 28 tooth crankset and ran a 13-21 FW. 36 GI. Also made swappng from road race to hill climb the night before child's play. (Swap pedals, cranksets, chains and wheels. No brains required. After an upwind 5 hour race, I has no brains left. Oh, and I didn't touch my dropout screws.)
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Old 09-24-20, 02:57 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by conspiratemus1
A factoid is something that looks like a fact but on closer examination turns out to be false, just as an asteroid isn’t really a star.
Actually, that statement is itself a factoid, in both senses of the word:

Definition of factoid

1 : an invented fact believed to be true because it appears in print
2 : a briefly stated and usually trivial fact

So the "minor factoid" referenced is actually a factoid, based on the second definition. That said, "minor factoid" is redundant.

BTW, since this entire post is a factoid, could it be called a meta-factoid?
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Old 09-24-20, 03:35 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by madpogue
Actually, that statement is itself a factoid, in both senses of the word:

Definition of factoid

1 : an invented fact believed to be true because it appears in print
2 : a briefly stated and usually trivial fact

So the "minor factoid" referenced is actually a factoid, based on the second definition. That said, "minor factoid" is redundant.

BTW, since this entire post is a factoid, could it be called a meta-factoid?
Well, we agree that by my definition or your def 1, Steel Charlie ’s statement is not a factoid. Because it’s true. (He says it is, and I have no reason to doubt him.). I like my definition better because it captures the meaning of the “-oid” suffix.
Facts, no matter how small, are far from trivial if they contradict a previously held belief or stimulate a different way of looking at a problem. Steel Charlie ‘s contribution that he has two bikes without DO screws that nonetheless work well with rear ders without B-screws is therefore very important and non-trivial to me. Enough that I am going to mess with a bike that works now, to see if I can make it not work. So it’s not a factoid by your def 2, either. He even stated the fact with enough detail that I can reproduce the set-up to explore for myself.
​​​​​​—
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Old 09-24-20, 03:50 PM
  #41  
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Depends on your definition of "trivial". I'd bet a nickel and an old bent dropout screw that most people who are not subscribers here on BF would consider the entire subject of dropout screw location "trivial".

On the "-oid" suffix, perhaps "factette" would be more appropriate to a trivial/minor fact. Or perhaps "nanofact". Neither one exactly rolls off the tongue.
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Old 09-24-20, 07:52 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by madpogue
Depends on your definition of "trivial". I'd bet a nickel and an old bent dropout screw that most people who are not subscribers here on BF would consider the entire subject of dropout screw location "trivial".. . .
Depends. Nowadays, when all modern derailers have B-screws and frames are straight, horizontal dropouts themselves, along with their associated paraphernalia of screws and springs are of trivial interest to people who only ride modern bikes. But if you can’t get your NR to drop down onto the 13 during a sprint, it matters a lot that precise wheel position might make it work better. More so if you were in a pro race. Better to invent a better derailer, sure. But if you’re earning your living racing with an NR, you want to optimize it. If some little tweak makes something important work better, how can that be called trivial, by anyone? And if it turns out that the tweak doesn’t make any difference after all, well, that’s worth knowing too.
To me, anyway. I don’t care what the people who don’t subscribe to BF think. If I did, I’d probably just drive a motorcycle.

Last edited by conspiratemus1; 09-24-20 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 09-24-20, 08:06 PM
  #43  
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Ah, thanks. So the reason they're on the inside is to prevent the spring and knurled nut from escaping? Good to know...

Now, time to get some thread locker to replace my congealed maple syrup...
Is thread locker good for waffles, by any chance?

Last edited by TH1813254617; 09-24-20 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 09-24-20, 08:23 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by conspiratemus1
Your question is perhaps rhetorical but in return for your generous thanks it deserves an answer.

The “cholesterol hypothesis” has dominated medical research into heart disease for at least 50 years. It has spawned dozens of drugs sold as “antidotes”, a few of which even work, and can save lives. But the “sucrose hypothesis” has received little attention from Pharma-funded researchers, I.e., nearly all run-of-the-mill medical researchers, because the only antidote to sucrose is to eat and drink less of the stuff (and concentrated forms of its constituent, fructose.) There is no pill. So until recently it was only unfunded cranks and gadflies who talked about it....incessantly. But sucrose makes you fat while bacon and olive oil don’t, now a mainstream idea. And obesity kills.

Don’t complain. Fight back: As a recreational athlete, drink only water. Get your calories and salt from real food that’s not too sweet.
Yup, sugar is distilled evil. Every aspect of it.
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Old 09-24-20, 08:48 PM
  #45  
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Anyhow, thanks for all the info! Gotta love this forum.

Time to ride my Sekine.
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Old 09-25-20, 01:50 AM
  #46  
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I propose the word "factlet" for the trivial-true-thing definition of "factoid." Short, easy to say and spell, preserves a distinction that's worth preserving, and it's cute and little, just like the thing it decsribes.

Eat and drink whatever you like, ride bikes, die whenever you die.

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Old 09-25-20, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by TH1813254617
I've noticed that the great majority of the time, for old dropouts with adjustment screws, the springs go on the inside of the dropout.

Why is that?
I've read somewhere that those spring are there to take up any slack. However, that doesn't seem to make sense since you'll be pulling the wheel into the screws. If those springs really were used to take up any slack in the threads of the screw, wouldn't it be more logical for the spring to be on the outside on the dropout?

My theory has been those screws are used to ensure the screws don't shift that easily when the axle is out of the dropout, kind of like nylon inserts in nuts (I've actually seen dropout screws that do away with the spring and put a plastic insert in the dropout). That still cannot explain why it seems customary to install them on the inside of the dropout, though.

What are those springs actually for, where should I put them, and why should I put them there? Will my bike buck me off if I do it wrong?
In my opinion, the point of the screws is to make sure the rear wheel can be easily installed into its correct position and orientation. One reason is for alignment. The screw positions were set up when the bike was assembled, so the wheel would roll in the plane of the frame. Combined with a fork that is aligned correctly, that bike will go in a straight line no-handed on a road with no camber. Another reason is for consistent and fast reinstallation of a wheel into its aligned position. It sets the position of the wheel when replacing a chain so that the previous chain length will still be the best one. The alignment is by eye and by feel, but there is a skill. Once you get it right it's extra work to make it right again. Older road bikes with those screws were modeled after racing bikes put together by professional mechanics. I think having that screw would have saved time in such a pit stop, relative to having the support mechanic dinking with the wheel to get it to sit where it's predecessor did. No wheel realignment, no rear derailleur limit screw adjustments, and no change in how the shifting works (we're talking pre-index shifting here). That's what I think it was designed for.

The flat end of the screw was inside the dropout because that's what the axle pushed on. The spring was needed to keep the screw from turning. The spring was on the inside because it is protected from damage due to rough handling. In the old days, racing was rough on equipment. The bikes were not the lightest thing possible, they were intended to be the lightest thing that would withstand racing conditions and survive long races. If you don't finish races you do not get to stand on the podium with (in the old days) the pretty girl and get a kiss.

This is the context in which Campagnolo gained it's cachet - they were designed to function well and to survive long, grueling races like TdF and Giro d'Italia. The Record line of components was developed to support riders at the top of known human capability.

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Old 09-25-20, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by conspiratemus1
Depends. Nowadays, when all modern derailers have B-screws and frames are straight, horizontal dropouts themselves, along with their associated paraphernalia of screws and springs are of trivial interest to people who only ride modern bikes. But if you can’t get your NR to drop down onto the 13 during a sprint, it matters a lot that precise wheel position might make it work better. More so if you were in a pro race. Better to invent a better derailer, sure. But if you’re earning your living racing with an NR, you want to optimize it. If some little tweak makes something important work better, how can that be called trivial, by anyone? And if it turns out that the tweak doesn’t make any difference after all, well, that’s worth knowing too.
To me, anyway. I don’t care what the people who don’t subscribe to BF think. If I did, I’d probably just drive a motorcycle.
I had pointed out that the screw affects wheel changes, but it's just as critical that shifting function on these racy vintage beasts can depend on such fine points of wheel position. It's not relevant today because of vertical dropouts and perhaps more precise frame building, but it was necessary when the NR and a few other friction mechs were the top of the heap, to facilitate fast wheel changes and maintain all the performance the bike had before getting a puncture.
For today's customer obviously axle position is precisely fixed by vertical dropouts. Vintage frames are not commonly used in top competition, but many vintageists want the screws installed and installed correctly because the bicycle preserves a bit of history, one that is affordable. And, it's still nice to have a bike that is more convenient to re-assemble than is a Raleigh three-speed.
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Old 09-25-20, 06:24 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by TH1813254617
Is thread locker good for waffles, by any chance?
They'll stick to your ribs.
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Old 09-25-20, 07:19 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by TH1813254617
Ah, thanks. So the reason they're on the inside is to prevent the spring and knurled nut from escaping? Good to know...

Now, time to get some thread locker to replace my congealed maple syrup...
Is thread locker good for waffles, by any chance?
Linseed oil might work, too, if you wanted to stay in steampunk mode. But not for waffles.

This repurposing of household products recalls a line from a song made famous (sort of) in 1970? by a parody folk-comedy band called The Brothers-in-Law — all 4 were police officers from Windsor, Ontario.
”The Pill”
. . . You can take your Saran Wrap back into the kitchen / And use it for cooking instead!
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