Dropout Screws Spring Location -- Where and Why?
#26
Used to be Conspiratemus
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hamilton ON Canada
Posts: 1,512
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Liked 245 Times
in
163 Posts
The “cholesterol hypothesis” has dominated medical research into heart disease for at least 50 years. It has spawned dozens of drugs sold as “antidotes”, a few of which even work, and can save lives. But the “sucrose hypothesis” has received little attention from Pharma-funded researchers, I.e., nearly all run-of-the-mill medical researchers, because the only antidote to sucrose is to eat and drink less of the stuff (and concentrated forms of its constituent, fructose.) There is no pill. So until recently it was only unfunded cranks and gadflies who talked about it....incessantly. But sucrose makes you fat while bacon and olive oil don’t, now a mainstream idea. And obesity kills.
Don’t complain. Fight back: As a recreational athlete, drink only water. Get your calories and salt from real food that’s not too sweet.
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 2,937
Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso
Mentioned: 114 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1283 Post(s)
Liked 1,836 Times
in
1,110 Posts
So the springs are actually compression springs to hold the adjuster screw in place. They need to be compressed a bit to work correctly, but they also allow for movement of the screws for small adjustments. In distance racing we used many sets of wheels and some worked a bit better when the wheelbase was longer and others worked well with a more compact set up. I don't really think it matters much where the spring is located inside the DO or outside. But the compression of the spring holds the screw in adjustment while changing wheels. Just my understanding. Smiles, MH
Likes For Mad Honk:
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,322
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3449 Post(s)
Liked 2,800 Times
in
1,974 Posts
Huret used a crescent chunk of plastic. no threading in the dropout. Only the French.
All the cool cats with 28t freewheels use the adjusters from the short Campagnolo dropouts on the long ones, less overhang, less to bump.
I just bought a bike with the drive side adjuster set back and the extending portion of the screw bent. I can take care of it. Just another task.
All the cool cats with 28t freewheels use the adjusters from the short Campagnolo dropouts on the long ones, less overhang, less to bump.
I just bought a bike with the drive side adjuster set back and the extending portion of the screw bent. I can take care of it. Just another task.
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,322
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3449 Post(s)
Liked 2,800 Times
in
1,974 Posts
#30
small ring
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: PNW
Posts: 1,030
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 437 Post(s)
Liked 925 Times
in
370 Posts
__________________
72 Bob Jackson -- 74 Motobecane Grand Jubile -- 74 Sekine SHS 271 -- 80 Nishiki International
85 Shogun 800 -- 86 Tommasini Super Prestige -- 92 Specialized Rockhopper -- 17 Colnago Arabesque
72 Bob Jackson -- 74 Motobecane Grand Jubile -- 74 Sekine SHS 271 -- 80 Nishiki International
85 Shogun 800 -- 86 Tommasini Super Prestige -- 92 Specialized Rockhopper -- 17 Colnago Arabesque
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,127
Mentioned: 480 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3788 Post(s)
Liked 6,573 Times
in
2,580 Posts
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,039
Bikes: 1963? Anquetil , 1973 PX10,1979 PX10,1984 PX10, VITUS 979 PX10DU,1970S ALAN,1985 PSV10,1980s PY10FC,1978 bERTIN,ALAN carbon
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 283 Post(s)
Liked 633 Times
in
282 Posts
What about simplex ! no spring at all ! Those cunning french men
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 902
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 354 Post(s)
Liked 489 Times
in
261 Posts
Minor factoid - both the Colnago (Campy horz) and the Caylor (Campy vert) have old Campy SR (82, 84) no B-screw dr's on them. They have each had a wide variety of freewheels on them over the years and have never suffered any sort of shifting woes even tho bereft of dropout screws and the axle all the way back.
And BTW the Caylor does have the washer brazed to the inside on the Campy vert.
have a nice day
Charlie
And BTW the Caylor does have the washer brazed to the inside on the Campy vert.
have a nice day
Charlie
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,830
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 128 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4744 Post(s)
Liked 3,860 Times
in
2,509 Posts
The upper-end Fujis back in the day were double-nutted, which made perfect sense to me, and then I didn't see any need for the spring. Unless I want a totally period-correct build, I've been using stainless hardware, with a 2.5mm-socket screw, a regular old nut, and a domed crown nut at the end. I'd rather have a milled ring i/o nut against the dropout, like the Fujis had, which are much easier to adjust by hand. But couldn't find a modern supplier. Probably just couldn't figure out the right search term for McMaster-Carr.
The stainless 2.5mm-socket screws are mega-handy not only because they won't rust, but also because driving them into the dropout with a hex wrench means my screwdriver won't be constantly slipping off the end of the screw like it does with regular slotted screws. You can also get them in several different lengths, and tailor them to any particular bike. I don't like too much screw sticking out the back, so I usually use the shortest screw that will give me the adjusting range I want for a particular dropout/frame.
Don't have any inside-slot photos handy, but on the outside of the drop they look like this:
The stainless 2.5mm-socket screws are mega-handy not only because they won't rust, but also because driving them into the dropout with a hex wrench means my screwdriver won't be constantly slipping off the end of the screw like it does with regular slotted screws. You can also get them in several different lengths, and tailor them to any particular bike. I don't like too much screw sticking out the back, so I usually use the shortest screw that will give me the adjusting range I want for a particular dropout/frame.
Don't have any inside-slot photos handy, but on the outside of the drop they look like this:
That said, I have two bikes with horizontal dropouts and the screws. I'd have to look to see what's on them now, 4 bikes with horizontal dropouts but two are fix gears with cogs that change regularly so no screws used, My city fix gear has screws that I've tweaked once in the past 5 years, (Chain "stretch".) Makes for easier wheel insertion after flat repairs in the dark and rain.
All those screws need is something to keep them from moving.. And that screw's only function is simply be there when you insert the wheel. Springs, nuts, thick grease, rust - they all work. (Rust can be a pain if you want to change it later so i prefer thick grease.), So, so far from rocket science.
On bikes where I remove the screws, I stuff both ends of the hole with marine grease. (Except my ti bike.)
Oh, the other reason for horizontal dropouts? Well, a vertical dropout bike is a one trick pony, It has to run with a derailleur cage (or you have to jump through some expensive hoops). Horizontal drops? Just fine with or without a derailleur cafe or tensioner. Can run an IGH or fix gear. Everything but disc brakes with no hoops to jump through at all. I spec'd horizontal dropouts on my Mooney, just so I could; knowing I never would. 38 years later I did. I"m back in love with that bike again.
One trick pony - sounds right!
Ben
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,830
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 128 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4744 Post(s)
Liked 3,860 Times
in
2,509 Posts
I believe that has a black plastic cylinder in the hole you can see in the dropout. Screw runs through that, Acts like thick grease or beeswax. And yes, in my experience with one bike, it works rather nicely. (I just wish those dropouts were longer. The chain had to be the perfect length to be able to use fix gear cogs 2 teeth apart without messing with it.)
Edit: I see from the post above that's a crescent, not a cylinder. Never looked at mine that closely. (They were on a trashed frame I bought for $20 to be a cheap, light fix gear. Fine scrutiny of the frame didn't happen until I discovered the cracks and then, the emphasis was on fixing them and watching for others. Subtle touches got missed.).
Edit: I see from the post above that's a crescent, not a cylinder. Never looked at mine that closely. (They were on a trashed frame I bought for $20 to be a cheap, light fix gear. Fine scrutiny of the frame didn't happen until I discovered the cracks and then, the emphasis was on fixing them and watching for others. Subtle touches got missed.).
Last edited by 79pmooney; 09-24-20 at 01:24 PM.
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,322
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3449 Post(s)
Liked 2,800 Times
in
1,974 Posts
#37
Used to be Conspiratemus
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hamilton ON Canada
Posts: 1,512
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Liked 245 Times
in
163 Posts
Minor factoid - both the Colnago (Campy horz) and the Caylor (Campy vert) have old Campy SR (82, 84) no B-screw dr's on them. They have each had a wide variety of freewheels on them over the years and have never suffered any sort of shifting woes even tho bereft of dropout screws and the axle all the way back.
. . .
have a nice day
Charlie
. . .
have a nice day
Charlie
What you have reported is a plain, straight-up fact, two facts in fact, which I am very glad to learn. Thank you.
Time to test my NR in my only single bike with vertical DOs and see what I get.
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,830
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 128 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4744 Post(s)
Liked 3,860 Times
in
2,509 Posts
Minor factoid - both the Colnago (Campy horz) and the Caylor (Campy vert) have old Campy SR (82, 84) no B-screw dr's on them. They have each had a wide variety of freewheels on them over the years and have never suffered any sort of shifting woes even tho bereft of dropout screws and the axle all the way back.
And BTW the Caylor does have the washer brazed to the inside on the Campy vert.
have a nice day
Charlie
And BTW the Caylor does have the washer brazed to the inside on the Campy vert.
have a nice day
Charlie
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 6,876
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2350 Post(s)
Liked 1,727 Times
in
1,179 Posts
Definition of factoid
1 : an invented fact believed to be true because it appears in print2 : a briefly stated and usually trivial fact
So the "minor factoid" referenced is actually a factoid, based on the second definition. That said, "minor factoid" is redundant.
BTW, since this entire post is a factoid, could it be called a meta-factoid?
#40
Used to be Conspiratemus
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hamilton ON Canada
Posts: 1,512
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Liked 245 Times
in
163 Posts
Actually, that statement is itself a factoid, in both senses of the word:
2 : a briefly stated and usually trivial fact
So the "minor factoid" referenced is actually a factoid, based on the second definition. That said, "minor factoid" is redundant.
BTW, since this entire post is a factoid, could it be called a meta-factoid?
Definition of factoid
1 : an invented fact believed to be true because it appears in print2 : a briefly stated and usually trivial fact
So the "minor factoid" referenced is actually a factoid, based on the second definition. That said, "minor factoid" is redundant.
BTW, since this entire post is a factoid, could it be called a meta-factoid?
Facts, no matter how small, are far from trivial if they contradict a previously held belief or stimulate a different way of looking at a problem. Steel Charlie ‘s contribution that he has two bikes without DO screws that nonetheless work well with rear ders without B-screws is therefore very important and non-trivial to me. Enough that I am going to mess with a bike that works now, to see if I can make it not work. So it’s not a factoid by your def 2, either. He even stated the fact with enough detail that I can reproduce the set-up to explore for myself.
—
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 6,876
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2350 Post(s)
Liked 1,727 Times
in
1,179 Posts
Depends on your definition of "trivial". I'd bet a nickel and an old bent dropout screw that most people who are not subscribers here on BF would consider the entire subject of dropout screw location "trivial".
On the "-oid" suffix, perhaps "factette" would be more appropriate to a trivial/minor fact. Or perhaps "nanofact". Neither one exactly rolls off the tongue.
On the "-oid" suffix, perhaps "factette" would be more appropriate to a trivial/minor fact. Or perhaps "nanofact". Neither one exactly rolls off the tongue.
#42
Used to be Conspiratemus
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hamilton ON Canada
Posts: 1,512
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Liked 245 Times
in
163 Posts
To me, anyway. I don’t care what the people who don’t subscribe to BF think. If I did, I’d probably just drive a motorcycle.
Last edited by conspiratemus1; 09-24-20 at 07:55 PM.
#43
Sekine SHT
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 6
Bikes: 1975 Sekine SHT, Sekine SHS, Kuwahara Apollo MKIII (stolen)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Ah, thanks. So the reason they're on the inside is to prevent the spring and knurled nut from escaping? Good to know...
Now, time to get some thread locker to replace my congealed maple syrup...
Is thread locker good for waffles, by any chance?
Now, time to get some thread locker to replace my congealed maple syrup...
Is thread locker good for waffles, by any chance?
Last edited by TH1813254617; 09-24-20 at 08:28 PM.
#44
Sekine SHT
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 6
Bikes: 1975 Sekine SHT, Sekine SHS, Kuwahara Apollo MKIII (stolen)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Your question is perhaps rhetorical but in return for your generous thanks it deserves an answer.
The “cholesterol hypothesis” has dominated medical research into heart disease for at least 50 years. It has spawned dozens of drugs sold as “antidotes”, a few of which even work, and can save lives. But the “sucrose hypothesis” has received little attention from Pharma-funded researchers, I.e., nearly all run-of-the-mill medical researchers, because the only antidote to sucrose is to eat and drink less of the stuff (and concentrated forms of its constituent, fructose.) There is no pill. So until recently it was only unfunded cranks and gadflies who talked about it....incessantly. But sucrose makes you fat while bacon and olive oil don’t, now a mainstream idea. And obesity kills.
Don’t complain. Fight back: As a recreational athlete, drink only water. Get your calories and salt from real food that’s not too sweet.
The “cholesterol hypothesis” has dominated medical research into heart disease for at least 50 years. It has spawned dozens of drugs sold as “antidotes”, a few of which even work, and can save lives. But the “sucrose hypothesis” has received little attention from Pharma-funded researchers, I.e., nearly all run-of-the-mill medical researchers, because the only antidote to sucrose is to eat and drink less of the stuff (and concentrated forms of its constituent, fructose.) There is no pill. So until recently it was only unfunded cranks and gadflies who talked about it....incessantly. But sucrose makes you fat while bacon and olive oil don’t, now a mainstream idea. And obesity kills.
Don’t complain. Fight back: As a recreational athlete, drink only water. Get your calories and salt from real food that’s not too sweet.
#45
Sekine SHT
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 6
Bikes: 1975 Sekine SHT, Sekine SHS, Kuwahara Apollo MKIII (stolen)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Anyhow, thanks for all the info! Gotta love this forum.
Time to ride my Sekine.
Time to ride my Sekine.
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Humboldt County, CA
Posts: 848
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 405 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 430 Times
in
286 Posts
I propose the word "factlet" for the trivial-true-thing definition of "factoid." Short, easy to say and spell, preserves a distinction that's worth preserving, and it's cute and little, just like the thing it decsribes.
Eat and drink whatever you like, ride bikes, die whenever you die.
--Shannon
Eat and drink whatever you like, ride bikes, die whenever you die.
--Shannon
Likes For ShannonM:
#47
Senior Member
I've noticed that the great majority of the time, for old dropouts with adjustment screws, the springs go on the inside of the dropout.
Why is that?
I've read somewhere that those spring are there to take up any slack. However, that doesn't seem to make sense since you'll be pulling the wheel into the screws. If those springs really were used to take up any slack in the threads of the screw, wouldn't it be more logical for the spring to be on the outside on the dropout?
My theory has been those screws are used to ensure the screws don't shift that easily when the axle is out of the dropout, kind of like nylon inserts in nuts (I've actually seen dropout screws that do away with the spring and put a plastic insert in the dropout). That still cannot explain why it seems customary to install them on the inside of the dropout, though.
What are those springs actually for, where should I put them, and why should I put them there? Will my bike buck me off if I do it wrong?
Why is that?
I've read somewhere that those spring are there to take up any slack. However, that doesn't seem to make sense since you'll be pulling the wheel into the screws. If those springs really were used to take up any slack in the threads of the screw, wouldn't it be more logical for the spring to be on the outside on the dropout?
My theory has been those screws are used to ensure the screws don't shift that easily when the axle is out of the dropout, kind of like nylon inserts in nuts (I've actually seen dropout screws that do away with the spring and put a plastic insert in the dropout). That still cannot explain why it seems customary to install them on the inside of the dropout, though.
What are those springs actually for, where should I put them, and why should I put them there? Will my bike buck me off if I do it wrong?
The flat end of the screw was inside the dropout because that's what the axle pushed on. The spring was needed to keep the screw from turning. The spring was on the inside because it is protected from damage due to rough handling. In the old days, racing was rough on equipment. The bikes were not the lightest thing possible, they were intended to be the lightest thing that would withstand racing conditions and survive long races. If you don't finish races you do not get to stand on the podium with (in the old days) the pretty girl and get a kiss.
This is the context in which Campagnolo gained it's cachet - they were designed to function well and to survive long, grueling races like TdF and Giro d'Italia. The Record line of components was developed to support riders at the top of known human capability.
Last edited by Road Fan; 09-25-20 at 11:34 AM.
Likes For Road Fan:
#48
Senior Member
Depends. Nowadays, when all modern derailers have B-screws and frames are straight, horizontal dropouts themselves, along with their associated paraphernalia of screws and springs are of trivial interest to people who only ride modern bikes. But if you can’t get your NR to drop down onto the 13 during a sprint, it matters a lot that precise wheel position might make it work better. More so if you were in a pro race. Better to invent a better derailer, sure. But if you’re earning your living racing with an NR, you want to optimize it. If some little tweak makes something important work better, how can that be called trivial, by anyone? And if it turns out that the tweak doesn’t make any difference after all, well, that’s worth knowing too.
To me, anyway. I don’t care what the people who don’t subscribe to BF think. If I did, I’d probably just drive a motorcycle.
To me, anyway. I don’t care what the people who don’t subscribe to BF think. If I did, I’d probably just drive a motorcycle.
For today's customer obviously axle position is precisely fixed by vertical dropouts. Vintage frames are not commonly used in top competition, but many vintageists want the screws installed and installed correctly because the bicycle preserves a bit of history, one that is affordable. And, it's still nice to have a bike that is more convenient to re-assemble than is a Raleigh three-speed.
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 6,876
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2350 Post(s)
Liked 1,727 Times
in
1,179 Posts
#50
Used to be Conspiratemus
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hamilton ON Canada
Posts: 1,512
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Liked 245 Times
in
163 Posts
This repurposing of household products recalls a line from a song made famous (sort of) in 1970? by a parody folk-comedy band called The Brothers-in-Law — all 4 were police officers from Windsor, Ontario.
”The Pill”
. . . You can take your Saran Wrap back into the kitchen / And use it for cooking instead!
Likes For conspiratemus1: