allend

There are several possibilities. However, we need any history of frame you may have and pictures of frame: a full side on view and pics of head lugs, seat cluster, BB, stay bridges, dropouts and serial number. Does the number "168" perhaps have preceding 0's? As well as pics of all decals. ID and dating of a frame requires more than the serial number.

Doug

allend

Tricky,
I agree looks like a sloppy 7 to me. From looking at a lot of these numbers 1 and 7 are often misread for each other. The 7 tends to have a bit of a curve, which this does. While the style of 1 is usually straight with a little deflection off to left at top.
The Italia was made in 1981 according to Kilgariff's catalog and perhaps you are right it carried on in 1982. Or... perhaps Dave's "prediction" graph is a tad off. The prediction is "circa" after all.
I have never seen a Claud Butler Italia. Would be really nice to see pics!
Doug

tricky 

I'll get some. It might be a bit as it's between builds right now but I'll update this thread when I have them.

treborley

Hi Doug, thanks for the reply. I have attached two photos but will get some more detailed ones as well. The forks are also clearly stamped 168.

treborley

Better frame photo

dwscrimshaw@bti

I'll let Doug confirm the model, but looks like a Mistral to me. If this is the only number on the BB then I would think it is an early 4 digit number from the 60's. Sometimes you find odd 3D numbers along side/as well as the actual frame number. Is it possible to confirm the presence of any other markings? Also that oiler on the bottom of the BB is a bit odd, could it be a CB frame/number painted up as a Holdsworth? Looks like it has run a front gear change too at some time.

A number this low would be from around 1962, but the mistral didn't start until 1964. However we have seen frames with numbers on that are too low for a particular model before which is leading us to believe we are seeing some early prototype or marketing frames being built well in advance of the model launch. A couple of years has been seen before.

There is a track frame described as a Mistral in this group, #1089 from 1964, but the seat stay is not wrap over so not sure exactly what that one is either. Think a bit more input is needed to fully ID this frame.

dwscrimshaw@bti

Yes, I am happy to go with it carrying on into the first half of 82. That said this is only a prediction based on steady clime in production meeting known volumes. 1981 we have some good dates and the first few from 82 have no dates so could be 81. Then we have some amber 82 dates some of which suggest these too could be 81. Lastly we have 4 Nuovo Records that were only made in 82 and it has always bugged me that all these sit at the top of 82. All this suggests the climb is not as consistent as predicted.

I have tried adjusting this before and you end up with loads of 1981 frames, which also looks odd. So again i'll log it as 1982 for now, but a year either way is entirely possible.

allend

Thanks for pics of "168".

If indeed an early 60's short number and a Mistral, or more correctly a Super Mistral with fully sloping fork crown, it would not fit with a Holsworthy Factory build as that feature didn't come out in catalogues and other factory examples until later half of 60's. It could fit with a Putney shop "special" build as they were using Cinelli style crowns in early 60's although if that is case than an integral seat post bolt feature or chunkier wrap over seat stay would be more definitive to place as a Shop build. Placement of oiler on bottom bracket seems to be fairly standard by 1960, so that doesn't help. Also not typical of a "rebadged" early 60's Holdsworthy/Claud Torino clone.

Another possibility is that this is an early 70's factory special build, when we are again seeing short numbers. Lack of braze ons as TT rear brake cable stops suggests 70ish. Down tube decal and paint scheme, IF original, on other hand does look a bit more typical of 60's altho not definitive. Notice there does not seem to be a metal head badge. Are there perhaps covered holes? If none this might suggest was an early 70's special build as Mistral's were certainly built for other shop branding.

Don't think we can be definitive as yet. Any idea if same number on fork steerer tube? More pics of areas mentioned in prior email would be helpful.

treborley

Thanks for the responses, I really appreciate it. I wondered if it was an early Roy Thame. I can not see any head badge hole blemishes under the transfer.

treborley

4 more

allend

Definitely has the appearance of a Super Mistral with Prugnat I lugs and fully sloping fork crown. Doesn't appear to have any features of a Putney shop build - must be a factory build. Straight rear brake bridge did not appear until '73ish. Might be helpful, if you have a set of calipers to measure upper seat stay diameter which measured 5/8 from onset until '67 when went to 9/16 until again in mid 70's went back to 5/8. Looks thinner to me. Metal badge didn't disappear from catalog until after '76 altho as before unusual 3 digit number might mean it was a special build for badging by another shop. Looks like repainted at sometime as the factory would not have placed a seat tube decal on head tube.

So by features I would guess somewhere around '73. Wonder about seat stay measurement?

Hope this helps.

Doug

treborley

Thanks Doug, useful information. I will see if I can measure the seat stays. Cheers, Rob

dwscrimshaw@bti

Interesting, we do have another 3 digit number in the early 70's 4D group, #591, not much detail on that one and the Pollard also has 3D number, #005. All the rest are 4 digits, not only one #0014 with leading zeros except the Pollard too.

treborley

Hi Doug,

Not having a pair of calipers I managed to use a piece of card. Closest measurement 15mm (if anything fractionally over).

Thanks

Robert

allend

Hi Treborley,
Looks like 15mm is in middle between 9/16" and 5/8". Really can't comment without more accuracy.
Doug

amulinder

Congrats, I collect Holdsworth frame numbers and haven't seen this before, where we have what looks like a 70s frame (and most probably a Super Mistral) but the frame number doesn't make any sense in terms of known Holdsworth sequencing

One other thought, which doesn't actually get any closer than Allend has already, but if you knew whether tubing was 531 butted you could at least say definitively it was before 1982. The 1971 clubman had lug work like that, but the sloping fork crown and wrap around seat stay suggests a Super Mistral. Don't think you're going to get any closer than Allend has already. Very interesting though and great to see.

dwgwater

Just to add another data point, I have an Italia purchased at Putney around '75 or '76. I vaguely remember John West telling my dad it had been around the shop for a while.
74739

Dave

allend

Hi Dave,
Dave Scrimshaw and rest of us might be interested in seeing some pics including serial number on BB. Yes, I guess builds for the shop sometimes hung around for a while. Seems it would have been built for stock. Any chance it may have had a K after numbers signifying stock? Interesting to know where numbers are placed on BB.
Doug

dwscrimshaw@bti

Yes Interesting, this is the second high number starting 74..., both Itilia's. Could be significant. Clearly something else was going on along side the continuing use of 69... numbers.

dwgwater

I don't have a BB serial # picture, but will get one

dwgwater

Take 2

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IMG_0450.JPG

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allend

Hi Dave,
While you are at it, pics of seat cluster, BB details and rear dropouts (are they vertical?) would also be helpful. Do I see holes drilled in lug spear points?
Doug

dwgwater

I'd have been more diligent about polishing it up if I knew you were going to want close-ups

dwgwater

Clearer of the SN

dwgwater

And now from the archives:

74739 purchased 21 mar 75. So it's a Strada, not an Italia

Also, the invoice for my first Mistral 36712 purchased Sept. 29 1972. I sold that one a decade or two ago. Kinda wish I still had it, but it'd be pretty small. Nice riding bike, steel cottered cranks and all