So the omnium has changed again
09-30-16, 07:46 AM
#26
aka mattio
Thread Starter
i wonder if they are trying to bias the omnium away from sprinters, actually. or rather - make having significant sprint ability less of an omnium requirement.
at Rio, the time of the omnium kilo winner (Dylan Kennet) would have won bronze in the 2004 kilo, and the top 5 all had flying laps that equated to 10.4 and under flying 200s - times that would have comfortably qualified for the sprint tourney in '12!
at Rio, the time of the omnium kilo winner (Dylan Kennet) would have won bronze in the 2004 kilo, and the top 5 all had flying laps that equated to 10.4 and under flying 200s - times that would have comfortably qualified for the sprint tourney in '12!
09-30-16, 09:03 AM
#27
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We have tickets for the World Cup at Velo Sports Center in Carson, CA. It is on February 25th and 26th - 2 days of racing. I do not know what the format is but it is going to be a great time watching racing and hanging out.
09-30-16, 09:42 AM
#28
Senior Member
Will Cycling USA be funding cyclists to participate in the World Cup events/ Here is what Derek Bouchard Hall said:
"In fact, we've got World Cup races to go do on the track side, and we're out of money – we're out of money," he said. "So we're going out with our hat in hand to be able to figure out how we're gong to send our track athletes to the World Cups come this year. I think we will. We'll work with our foundation to step up with things like that. One thing the foundation hates is any athlete losing an opportunity to compete. That's something where they really step up and support us, so they'll probably help us here to get through the year."
It's not a position Bouchard Hall wants to be in, he said, but it isn't unintentional either.
"In the past we've been able to fully fund this, but where we are now, post Olympics, in a year with cut budgets, Jim is struggling," he said.
"We totally get we're asking someone to go represent the United States at the World Championships and then we're asking them to pay to do that," he said. "And Obviously we would not like to do it that way, but when you have limited resources you have to dole them out carefully."
Source: US discretionary picks for Elite World Championships saddled with travel expenses | Cyclingnews.com
"In fact, we've got World Cup races to go do on the track side, and we're out of money – we're out of money," he said. "So we're going out with our hat in hand to be able to figure out how we're gong to send our track athletes to the World Cups come this year. I think we will. We'll work with our foundation to step up with things like that. One thing the foundation hates is any athlete losing an opportunity to compete. That's something where they really step up and support us, so they'll probably help us here to get through the year."
It's not a position Bouchard Hall wants to be in, he said, but it isn't unintentional either.
"In the past we've been able to fully fund this, but where we are now, post Olympics, in a year with cut budgets, Jim is struggling," he said.
"We totally get we're asking someone to go represent the United States at the World Championships and then we're asking them to pay to do that," he said. "And Obviously we would not like to do it that way, but when you have limited resources you have to dole them out carefully."
Source: US discretionary picks for Elite World Championships saddled with travel expenses | Cyclingnews.com
09-30-16, 11:00 AM
#29
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Will Cycling USA be funding cyclists to participate in the World Cup events/ Here is what Derek Bouchard Hall said:
"In fact, we've got World Cup races to go do on the track side, and we're out of money – we're out of money," he said. "So we're going out with our hat in hand to be able to figure out how we're gong to send our track athletes to the World Cups come this year. I think we will. We'll work with our foundation to step up with things like that. One thing the foundation hates is any athlete losing an opportunity to compete. That's something where they really step up and support us, so they'll probably help us here to get through the year."
It's not a position Bouchard Hall wants to be in, he said, but it isn't unintentional either.
"In the past we've been able to fully fund this, but where we are now, post Olympics, in a year with cut budgets, Jim is struggling," he said.
"We totally get we're asking someone to go represent the United States at the World Championships and then we're asking them to pay to do that," he said. "And Obviously we would not like to do it that way, but when you have limited resources you have to dole them out carefully."
Source: US discretionary picks for Elite World Championships saddled with travel expenses | Cyclingnews.com
"In fact, we've got World Cup races to go do on the track side, and we're out of money – we're out of money," he said. "So we're going out with our hat in hand to be able to figure out how we're gong to send our track athletes to the World Cups come this year. I think we will. We'll work with our foundation to step up with things like that. One thing the foundation hates is any athlete losing an opportunity to compete. That's something where they really step up and support us, so they'll probably help us here to get through the year."
It's not a position Bouchard Hall wants to be in, he said, but it isn't unintentional either.
"In the past we've been able to fully fund this, but where we are now, post Olympics, in a year with cut budgets, Jim is struggling," he said.
"We totally get we're asking someone to go represent the United States at the World Championships and then we're asking them to pay to do that," he said. "And Obviously we would not like to do it that way, but when you have limited resources you have to dole them out carefully."
Source: US discretionary picks for Elite World Championships saddled with travel expenses | Cyclingnews.com
:-|
How much does it cost to send a rider to a world cup? A couple of grand each? I'm calling BS on all of this. Track cycling offers the most opportunities for medals that any other sport outside of Swimming. The athletes are multi-diciplinary, meaning one trained athlete can compete in multiple events as opposed to being so specialized that they can only do one event. This is how the British totally cleaned up in the past few Olympics. They probably won more medals than any other sports program.
It's not that they don't have money. They haven't set aside money for track.
It's like someone saying, "I don't have time to workout." No. They haven't set aside time to workout. If they want it to happen, they will make time for it.
09-30-16, 12:15 PM
#30
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https://trackworldcupla.com/uploads/i...m_medium=email
10-03-16, 06:54 AM
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How much does it cost to send a rider to a world cup? A couple of grand each? I'm calling BS on all of this. Track cycling offers the most opportunities for medals that any other sport outside of Swimming. The athletes are multi-diciplinary, meaning one trained athlete can compete in multiple events as opposed to being so specialized that they can only do one event. This is how the British totally cleaned up in the past few Olympics. They probably won more medals than any other sports program.
It's not that they don't have money. They haven't set aside money for track.
It's like someone saying, "I don't have time to workout." No. They haven't set aside time to workout. If they want it to happen, they will make time for it.
It's not that they don't have money. They haven't set aside money for track.
It's like someone saying, "I don't have time to workout." No. They haven't set aside time to workout. If they want it to happen, they will make time for it.
10-04-16, 12:19 PM
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10-04-16, 12:51 PM
#34
aka mattio
Thread Starter
This. When they have people making over $300k a year while complaining they do not have the money to support athletes, it is really hard to take them serious. https://sites.google.com/site/usacyc...responsibility
First of all, your link says nothing about the salary of the USAC CEO Derek Bouchard-Hall, who was quoted in the article.
Secondly, he didn't complain that they didn't have the money to support athletes. They said that they spent their budget on the Olympics, the more-expensive-than-usual road WCs, and on shifting priorities toward grassroots programs.
Thirdly, he said that they are working to figure out how to send riders to the World Cups.
Fourth, as much as it's sad that there's not a guaranteed stream of funding for trackies right now, it's not exactly uncommon for budgeting to be based on some level of speculation about future income. At the start of the year they had a finite amount of money. They spent more than they usually do on grassroots programs, and on the Olympics. It doesn't exactly take reading between the lines to get this information.
Fifthly, and most importantly, suggesting that the leadership of an organization with a $20million annual budget be compensated less is really foolish. This comes up a lot in the nonprofit world, too - I hear stuff like, "If such-and-such an organization is truly a nonprofit, then why is the ED drawing a six-figure salary?"
Large, complicated organizations should be run by people who are competent and skilled enough to do it. These people tend to draw higher salaries. I don't know how much Derek Bouchard-Hall is making but if you cut the salary on offer for the position from (say) $300k to $150k, you're very lucky if you save $150k/yr without losing more than that amount somewhere else.
10-04-16, 01:20 PM
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I know it's easy to spool up an internet rant, but:
First of all, your link says nothing about the salary of the USAC CEO Derek Bouchard-Hall, who was quoted in the article.
Secondly, he didn't complain that they didn't have the money to support athletes. They said that they spent their budget on the Olympics, the more-expensive-than-usual road WCs, and on shifting priorities toward grassroots programs.
Thirdly, he said that they are working to figure out how to send riders to the World Cups.
Fourth, as much as it's sad that there's not a guaranteed stream of funding for trackies right now, it's not exactly uncommon for budgeting to be based on some level of speculation about future income. At the start of the year they had a finite amount of money. They spent more than they usually do on grassroots programs, and on the Olympics. It doesn't exactly take reading between the lines to get this information.
Fifthly, and most importantly, suggesting that the leadership of an organization with a $20million annual budget be compensated less is really foolish. This comes up a lot in the nonprofit world, too - I hear stuff like, "If such-and-such an organization is truly a nonprofit, then why is the ED drawing a six-figure salary?"
Large, complicated organizations should be run by people who are competent and skilled enough to do it. These people tend to draw higher salaries. I don't know how much Derek Bouchard-Hall is making but if you cut the salary on offer for the position from (say) $300k to $150k, you're very lucky if you save $150k/yr without losing more than that amount somewhere else.
First of all, your link says nothing about the salary of the USAC CEO Derek Bouchard-Hall, who was quoted in the article.
Secondly, he didn't complain that they didn't have the money to support athletes. They said that they spent their budget on the Olympics, the more-expensive-than-usual road WCs, and on shifting priorities toward grassroots programs.
Thirdly, he said that they are working to figure out how to send riders to the World Cups.
Fourth, as much as it's sad that there's not a guaranteed stream of funding for trackies right now, it's not exactly uncommon for budgeting to be based on some level of speculation about future income. At the start of the year they had a finite amount of money. They spent more than they usually do on grassroots programs, and on the Olympics. It doesn't exactly take reading between the lines to get this information.
Fifthly, and most importantly, suggesting that the leadership of an organization with a $20million annual budget be compensated less is really foolish. This comes up a lot in the nonprofit world, too - I hear stuff like, "If such-and-such an organization is truly a nonprofit, then why is the ED drawing a six-figure salary?"
Large, complicated organizations should be run by people who are competent and skilled enough to do it. These people tend to draw higher salaries. I don't know how much Derek Bouchard-Hall is making but if you cut the salary on offer for the position from (say) $300k to $150k, you're very lucky if you save $150k/yr without losing more than that amount somewhere else.
I do find it difficult to believe they can not find someone equally qualified to run the organization for $150k a year. Still a very impressive salary and more in line with the rest of the bike industry (other than road cycling). Again, if I felt like athletes were better represented I might be less cynical and more accepting of that level of compensation but I just hear so many bad stories about USAC from both top athletes and people who have worked directly with them for years that it is hard to feel the salary is justified and an extra $150k or so could go a long way towards supporting athletes and developing Jr programs.
10-04-16, 01:55 PM
#36
aka mattio
Thread Starter
DBH has a MBA, worked for one of the most prestigious consulting companies in the world, and was an executive with a retailer with an annual revenue of around $180m/year.
It's not about being in line with the rest of the bike industry, it's about being in line with national, membership-based 501(c)3 organizations with a budget in the tens of millions of dollars and an international scope.
Quite simply, $150k/yr is not a competitive salary for the work that running an organization like USAC requires. and I'm saying that not as an off-the-cuff internet commenter, but as somebody with about a decade of experience in the field of nonprofit organization, strategy, and management.
If they hired somebody for $150k/yr, people would be complaining about mismanagement and ineffectiveness.
It's not about being in line with the rest of the bike industry, it's about being in line with national, membership-based 501(c)3 organizations with a budget in the tens of millions of dollars and an international scope.
Quite simply, $150k/yr is not a competitive salary for the work that running an organization like USAC requires. and I'm saying that not as an off-the-cuff internet commenter, but as somebody with about a decade of experience in the field of nonprofit organization, strategy, and management.
If they hired somebody for $150k/yr, people would be complaining about mismanagement and ineffectiveness.
10-04-16, 03:44 PM
#37
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Salaries aside...
Track cycling provides many more chances for medals than any other genre of cycling. That goes for World Championships, Pan-Ams, and Olympics. The British specifically took note of this and capitalized on it. If part of your organization is devoted to showing how good your cyclists are compared to the rest of the World, this is where you should focus your energy...and money.
USA Cycling is never going to sponsor a UCI World Tour road team to promote someone to being the best in the world on the road. That will always come through the way it does now.
UCA Cycling can, however, sponsor several athletes on a track team and send them to World Cup, World Championships, Pan-Am, and Olympics. They do not. Yet somehow expect to hire a world-class coach 1-2 years before the Olympics and expect them to make an Olympic champion from whatever he can gather from willing participants. That is literally like assigning someone to be the head of an NFL team with no budget, no existing team, no feeder program, no salaries, and they have to gather up players who train on their own for the love of the sport and expect them to do well in the playoffs at the end of the season. Oh, and the athletes have day jobs because you can't pay them to train like other programs. So, they have to maintain a day job and train twice a day.
It's nuts. Absolutely nuts.
The coaching and athletic talent exists within the United States to compete with the best track programs in the world. It's simply not worth it financially to pursue it.
Track cycling provides many more chances for medals than any other genre of cycling. That goes for World Championships, Pan-Ams, and Olympics. The British specifically took note of this and capitalized on it. If part of your organization is devoted to showing how good your cyclists are compared to the rest of the World, this is where you should focus your energy...and money.
USA Cycling is never going to sponsor a UCI World Tour road team to promote someone to being the best in the world on the road. That will always come through the way it does now.
UCA Cycling can, however, sponsor several athletes on a track team and send them to World Cup, World Championships, Pan-Am, and Olympics. They do not. Yet somehow expect to hire a world-class coach 1-2 years before the Olympics and expect them to make an Olympic champion from whatever he can gather from willing participants. That is literally like assigning someone to be the head of an NFL team with no budget, no existing team, no feeder program, no salaries, and they have to gather up players who train on their own for the love of the sport and expect them to do well in the playoffs at the end of the season. Oh, and the athletes have day jobs because you can't pay them to train like other programs. So, they have to maintain a day job and train twice a day.
It's nuts. Absolutely nuts.
The coaching and athletic talent exists within the United States to compete with the best track programs in the world. It's simply not worth it financially to pursue it.
10-04-16, 03:50 PM
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Regarding salaries...
We shouldn't look to the top folks in this org and say, "Yeah, if he took a pay cut then we could send some folks to World Cup!".
If you want good leadership you will have to pay for it. If a man or woman is qualified and capable of leading an org the size and budget of USA Cycling, they are capable of doing the same at other organizations and getting the same or more money. So, it is fair to pay them what they are worth on the market.
The proper way to get funding for track is to look at the budgets and move funding around that way. Review programs that are under-performing or have a surplus of funds. I'm pretty sure that Track has delivered more world-class medals in the past 8 years than any other program. Their funding should reflect that, too.
We shouldn't look to the top folks in this org and say, "Yeah, if he took a pay cut then we could send some folks to World Cup!".
If you want good leadership you will have to pay for it. If a man or woman is qualified and capable of leading an org the size and budget of USA Cycling, they are capable of doing the same at other organizations and getting the same or more money. So, it is fair to pay them what they are worth on the market.
The proper way to get funding for track is to look at the budgets and move funding around that way. Review programs that are under-performing or have a surplus of funds. I'm pretty sure that Track has delivered more world-class medals in the past 8 years than any other program. Their funding should reflect that, too.
10-04-16, 06:19 PM
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I understand where you are coming from, I just have a hard time hearing about how difficult things are budget wise while knowing the CEO is making over $300k a year.
The CEO pay would not even bother me if most athletes I talked with felt like they were being supported or even if they felt like USAC was at least trying to be supportive. I hear a lot of gripes about the organization here since I work with a lot of the local pro's (as a mechanic, not fast enough to ride with them) and nearly everyone shares the same thoughts towards USAC. It is especially frustrating when like Carleton points out, we have some pretty amazing talent, who are willing to work hard for little in return, here from coaches to athletes that simply can not bridge the gap between us and many other countries because they do not have the same support. This seems to be especially true for Jr racers and track sprinters. If the goal of USAC is to bring home medals to the US and develop the sport, most I have talked with would agree they have left a lot of opportunity on the table. That is my major gripe with the organization and why I feel dirty when I renewed my license with them.
The CEO pay would not even bother me if most athletes I talked with felt like they were being supported or even if they felt like USAC was at least trying to be supportive. I hear a lot of gripes about the organization here since I work with a lot of the local pro's (as a mechanic, not fast enough to ride with them) and nearly everyone shares the same thoughts towards USAC. It is especially frustrating when like Carleton points out, we have some pretty amazing talent, who are willing to work hard for little in return, here from coaches to athletes that simply can not bridge the gap between us and many other countries because they do not have the same support. This seems to be especially true for Jr racers and track sprinters. If the goal of USAC is to bring home medals to the US and develop the sport, most I have talked with would agree they have left a lot of opportunity on the table. That is my major gripe with the organization and why I feel dirty when I renewed my license with them.
10-04-16, 06:23 PM
#40
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Regarding salaries...
We shouldn't look to the top folks in this org and say, "Yeah, if he took a pay cut then we could send some folks to World Cup!".
If you want good leadership you will have to pay for it. If a man or woman is qualified and capable of leading an org the size and budget of USA Cycling, they are capable of doing the same at other organizations and getting the same or more money. So, it is fair to pay them what they are worth on the market.
The proper way to get funding for track is to look at the budgets and move funding around that way. Review programs that are under-performing or have a surplus of funds. I'm pretty sure that Track has delivered more world-class medals in the past 8 years than any other program. Their funding should reflect that, too.
We shouldn't look to the top folks in this org and say, "Yeah, if he took a pay cut then we could send some folks to World Cup!".
If you want good leadership you will have to pay for it. If a man or woman is qualified and capable of leading an org the size and budget of USA Cycling, they are capable of doing the same at other organizations and getting the same or more money. So, it is fair to pay them what they are worth on the market.
The proper way to get funding for track is to look at the budgets and move funding around that way. Review programs that are under-performing or have a surplus of funds. I'm pretty sure that Track has delivered more world-class medals in the past 8 years than any other program. Their funding should reflect that, too.
10-04-16, 06:24 PM
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I think the women's team pursuit team is a great example of what we can do with just a little support. Relative to many other teams they still have a very small budget and few resources but because of the talent and passion of the riders and team, they put down some really impressive times and brought home some medals. Same goes for our Paralympic cycling teams, we had some pretty impressive results for a team with a relatively small budget and a coach that was only able to work with them for less than a year before the games. We really have serious talent here that is waiting to show what it is capable of, we just need the support to make it happen.
10-04-16, 09:41 PM
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Unless your goal is parity or an even level of mediocrity. I'm not saying it should be, but there are probably some voices in USAC saying, " track is doing this well on what we give them now, so other things need it more.". Again not saying it's right, but trying to improve your weaknesses rather than build on your strength s is a different strategy. Won't bring more exposure at least right away, but if your entire strategy rests on the lotto ticket of finding another Lance, maybe it's how you play it.
I think the women's team pursuit team is a great example of what we can do with just a little support. Relative to many other teams they still have a very small budget and few resources but because of the talent and passion of the riders and team, they put down some really impressive times and brought home some medals. Same goes for our Paralympic cycling teams, we had some pretty impressive results for a team with a relatively small budget and a coach that was only able to work with them for less than a year before the games. We really have serious talent here that is waiting to show what it is capable of, we just need the support to make it happen.
10-04-16, 09:52 PM
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Exactly. I recently had this discussion with one of the former Olympic hopeful sprinters turned coach at the OTC Velodrome recently. Simply being able to properly recover after hard workouts rather than combine a 40+ hour work week with training would be a huge improvement for them alone.
10-07-16, 01:17 PM
#44
aka mattio
Thread Starter
The markup rule changes are posted over on FB:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/trac...3522697248663/
Here are some highlights:
Keirin moto drops off at 750m to go.
Madisons have sprints every 10 laps.
Restarts are only for legitimate falls.
Women's madison added to WC schedule.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/trac...3522697248663/
Here are some highlights:
Keirin moto drops off at 750m to go.
Madisons have sprints every 10 laps.
Restarts are only for legitimate falls.
Women's madison added to WC schedule.
10-07-16, 06:58 PM
#45
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Keirin moto drops off at 750m to go.
Women's madison added to WC schedule.
At the time, it seemed like an event that high-level ladies would do while they were at Nationals in a "Why not?" sort of approach. Are there ladies out there who are specifically training to be world-class Madison specialists?
I'm just wondering what's up with the refiguring of all of these events and whatnot. I mean, the 500M is/was a very popular event, and they removed it from the Olympics for the women. To be honest, I'd also love to see the men do 500M again.
10-07-16, 06:59 PM
#46
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The markup rule changes are posted over on FB:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/trac...3522697248663/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/trac...3522697248663/
Can you screenshot or post the text here. I don't have a FB account anymore and I'm not sure if that group is open. It's certainly not open to non-FB users.
10-07-16, 07:21 PM
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Here's a link to the pdf posted on Facebook. Does it work for others?
Rule change .pdf
If that doesn't work, some of the changes are listed starting on pg 15 of this:
https://uec.ch/documents/track/2016/2...ICAL_GUIDE.pdf
Rule change .pdf
If that doesn't work, some of the changes are listed starting on pg 15 of this:
https://uec.ch/documents/track/2016/2...ICAL_GUIDE.pdf
Last edited by gl98115; 10-07-16 at 07:30 PM.
10-07-16, 09:36 PM
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Thanks!!
Qualifying for 1km and 500m finals using 750m and 375m sounds interesting.
I could slay a 750m. A kilo? Not so much. I wonder if that would affect things. Taylor Phinney won silver a World Cup Kilo by finishing fastest in the last 250m. He "reverse split" the 4 laps. I wonder how that would play in the new format. Would he qualify for a medal round?
Qualifying for 1km and 500m finals using 750m and 375m sounds interesting.
I could slay a 750m. A kilo? Not so much. I wonder if that would affect things. Taylor Phinney won silver a World Cup Kilo by finishing fastest in the last 250m. He "reverse split" the 4 laps. I wonder how that would play in the new format. Would he qualify for a medal round?
10-07-16, 10:45 PM
#49
Senior Member
Proposed team sprint rule wording: "Thereafter, the leading rider must draw aside immediately and ride above the sprinter’s line no later than within 15 meters after the pursuit line."
I think this is poor wording unless "within" is deleted.
I think this is poor wording unless "within" is deleted.
10-10-16, 03:08 PM
#50
Senior Member
I received a message from UCI this morning.
If ratified the track rules changes will become effective on 13 Oct 2016. UCI will post updated rules on their web site.
If ratified the track rules changes will become effective on 13 Oct 2016. UCI will post updated rules on their web site.