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18650 Batteries for bicycle lights

Old 12-24-20, 11:04 PM
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18650 Batteries for bicycle lights

Any electronics engineers out there who has a grasp on the techno babble related to batteries and can give a down and dirty lesson on what is what? I recent picked up a brighteyes 1200 light set and a trustfire battery box for 18650 batteries to run on my light duty "fun" non-dynohubbed bikes. The problem is I don't understand what amp rating of 18650 battery I should be running for the longest run time. I see them for as little at 4.87 amps up to 30 amps and 30000 Mha down to the "Standard" 2500/2600mha..


Thanks

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Old 12-24-20, 11:29 PM
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Does it Come with a Charger?
Do have the link to one you bought?
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Old 12-25-20, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
Does it Come with a Charger?
Do have the link to one you bought?

This is the battery box: Trustfire box on Amazon mine is the 6 cell version

I picked up an xtar vc8 charger for charging duties: XTAR VC8 Chager on amazon

What I'm trying to do is make this light kit : Bright eyes 1200 on e-bay readily rebuildable with the replacement box. So all I have to do is replace the cells (or even swap cells to match temperature conditions if needed, as I understand that some lithium cells don't like freezing temps) It does come with a sealed battery pack and a no-name Chinese charger and my plan is to use up first.
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Old 12-25-20, 12:23 AM
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Thanks. I have a Friend that uses that battery box. He may contact you.
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Old 12-25-20, 02:03 AM
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Higher capacity is better since you need to carry fewer batteries to get a given runtime. However, brands that have no reputation to defend commonly inflate claimed capacities, sometimes outlandishly. The rule is to get the latest or next to latest edition of Panasonic, as there will be no better batteries for a given moment in the market. Their actual capacity will be nearly that claimed.
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Old 12-25-20, 02:17 AM
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Smile

Originally Posted by 2_i
Higher capacity is better since you need to carry fewer batteries to get a given runtime. However, brands that have no reputation to defend commonly inflate claimed capacities, sometimes outlandishly. The rule is to get the latest or next to latest edition of Panasonic, as there will be no better batteries for a given moment in the market. Their actual capacity will be nearly that claimed.
I'm looking at picking up six Molicel P26A 18650 2600mAh 35A Batteries. Should I be looking at the mAH or Amps? What I've seen on the Pansonics is the Mah is greater but Amps are lower..

Thanks
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Old 12-25-20, 02:51 AM
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Amps in tens are completely irrelevant for bike lights, so you can safely disregard those Amp numbers. The only potential application for high current for a single cell would be to power a high power horn but even there you would not go above 10A. I doubt this box you plan to use can carry out a higher current and this from some cells connected in parallel. Look at the capacity only. I have no personal experience with Molicel, but I see that they have some reputation.
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Old 12-25-20, 10:39 AM
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Sanyo/Panasonic NCR18650GA Protected 3500mAh (mtnelectronics.com) This is the highest mAh battery that I know about that is good quality.
If you don't need the protective circuit these are the same out put. Amazon.com: 4Pcs NCR18650B Storage Holder Case Kit for Video doorbell USB Fan LED Flashlight: Electronics
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Old 12-25-20, 10:52 AM
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Your best bet is to spring for buying a quality brand name battery rather than trusting the fictional ratings assigned to a lot of the bargain basement Chinese brands like Trustfire and Ultrafire. If you read the recommendations on flashlight websites a couple of brands come up frequently. The one I chose is NCR/Panasonic 18650b which are available on eBay reasonably priced. They are honestly rated at 3,400 mAh. The last time I bought a set of four, they were a bit over $5 each. They are made in Japan.

Before I bought a bunch of the genuine Panasonic batteries I bought several different brands for various electronic projects including for use in bike lights. I tested three different batteries in a two CREE LED light that has a four light indicator telling you when the battery needs recharging. They were the Panasonic battery, an Ultrafire red rated "5800 mAh", and an Ultrafire black rated "4000 mAh". I charged all three batteries before the test and time them until the fourth light on the bike light indicated I needed to switch batteries. The 4000 mAh battery ran the light 3.5 hours. The 5800 mAh battery ran the light just a little over 2 hours. The NCR/Panasonic battery ran the light for 16.5 hours before needing to be recharged.

A good, but not perfect, test is to weigh the batteries to look for fake batteries or fake ratings. It's an indicator of the amount of chemicals inside the battery. The more inside the battery, the longer it should last between charges. The brand name batteries were the heaviest and last longer than the budget batteries.
Here are a couple of ratings along with the battery weights.

Panasonic 18650b 47 grams ~1.6 oz
Samsung ICR18650-30b (not rated for mAh) 47 grams
Ultrafire black 4000 mAh 46.8 grams
Ultrafire red 5800 mAh 38.7 grams
Ultrafire yellow 5000 mAh 35.6 grams


It's OK to use the cheap batteries where you don't care about the shorter time between charges. It is just that Li-ion batteries can be recharged about 500 times (according to major battery makers websites) before they need replacing at 80% of original capacity after charging. It's false economy to buy a cheap battery for half the price if you are going to have to replace it far sooner than the better battery.
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Old 12-25-20, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by VegasTriker
Your best bet is to spring for buying a quality brand name battery rather than trusting the fictional ratings assigned to a lot of the bargain basement Chinese brands like Trustfire and Ultrafire. If you read the recommendations on flashlight websites a couple of brands come up frequently. The one I chose is NCR/Panasonic 18650b which are available on eBay reasonably priced.
Yes, avoid anything with "fire" in the name because fire is a bad thing wrt batteries. Panasonics from a reputable seller are a good choice.
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Old 01-10-21, 02:38 PM
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First - https://www.engadget.com/cpsc-warnin...061613315.html
- not sure how this will affect sites like DigiKey and Mouser and a few other that sell 18650 cells to project folks and hobbiest. I guess I better get a couple on order.

Second - has anyone ever tried these rather pricey UltraLife batteries: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...9SngPUOw%3D%3D
- kind of pricey at $30 for a single 2.4Ah / 3.6V cell. They used to be part of KODAK

I'm also thinking of trying this one as a replacement for one of my SERFAS lights that seems to have a shorter run time after a couple years of use: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/...S-70MM/9560968

Last - some of the other batteries mentioned in the thread (Panasonic, Samsung), I am having a hard time finding with leads attached. I don't have a little spot welder to do that, so I'm looking at the links I provided that already have leads (and I think sometimes a protection circuit).

Any feed back is appreciated. I've been thinking I'll do a whole little comparison of batteries with pictures, graphs, lines, and arrows.
cheers.
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Old 01-11-21, 04:44 AM
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OP:
go to https://batteryuniversity.com/
good intro
you have much to learn ,Grasshopper.
This is a huge topic
there is also a great flashlight forum, and the ES ebikers live the battery topic
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Old 01-11-21, 01:26 PM
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It seems to me the warning is about unprotected cells plus maybe "used" and unprotected cells.
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Old 01-12-21, 11:23 AM
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There's a Danish independent who performs technical tests on batteries, chargers, meters and other associated equipment. See this article-> Batteries with ridiculous ratings for a reasonable assessment on 18650 cells.

Personally, I've gone to 21700 cells with a neat Xtar PB2S charger/power bank -> PB2S review. It's not IPX rated but inside an Ortlieb handlebar bag works for me.
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Old 01-12-21, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWagner
There's a Danish independent who performs technical tests on batteries, chargers, meters and other associated equipment. See this article-> Batteries with ridiculous ratings for a reasonable assessment on 18650 cells.
If you're not buying branded batteries from an actual manufacturer like LG, Sammy, or Sanyo you're likely buying a re-branded reject from the same factory that didn't meet the manufacturing standards (capacity, etc.). This is exactly what the 'Batteries with ridiculous ratings' thoughtfully provided by ChrisWagner is saying. The Ultrafire, GIF, and others aren't 'fake' per se, they just didn't make the manufacturing spec for some reason even though some of them are made on the same factory floor (not sure about the UltraFire 9900mA which looks like a dangerous piece of junk). Sometimes it's OK to use these. but for mission critical stuff (i.e. cycling at night) it's better to pay extra for a quality battery cell from one of the big manufactures, which are the 'good' batteries in the article.

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Old 01-12-21, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWagner
There's a Danish independent who performs technical tests on batteries, chargers, meters and other associated equipment. See this article-> Batteries with ridiculous ratings for a reasonable assessment on 18650 cells.

Personally, I've gone to 21700 cells with a neat Xtar PB2S charger/power bank -> PB2S review. It's not IPX rated but inside an Ortlieb handlebar bag works for me.
The PB2S Xtar pack looks pretty interesting. I might go that route. AMAZON lists the manufacturer as "SHENZEN".

This 18650 lists the same name: https://chicagodist.com/products/lit...y-3-7v-2200mah - click on the data sheet link to see the name.
-- not sure what that means, of the Chinese Li-batt manufacturers, I am not familiar with SHENZEN. I'm more aware of A123, BYD, CATL, and CAMEL (for automotive). I wonder if SHENZEN is tied to Winston Thunder Cloud batteries in some way..... (no, I did not make up that name)

So far I have not found anything on the ULTRALIFE folks (used to be tied to KODAK), who make the really expensive 18650 cell available through MOUSER. (not to be confused with UltraFire........ whew-boy, what a battery name....)

i'm digging this topic. cheers.
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Old 01-12-21, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BikeLite
It seems to me the warning is about unprotected cells plus maybe "used" and unprotected cells.
ebikers (with any sense) consider lithium batteries firebombs that can store electricity.
What could possibly go wrong?
Uh, Sony? Uh ,Samsung?
Get name brand bats from someplace that can vet for counterfeits, third shift, reclaimed units ,
unless you really know your stuff or are investing in an education.
eg


How much did you save if you melt whatever it was strapped to?

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Old 01-12-21, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mrv
I am not familiar with SHENZEN.
Shenzen is one of the main manufacturing hubs in the world, a city of 20 million or so people, the Chinese counterpart to Hong-Kong. I suspect that numerous things you utilize in everyday life have at least components manufactured there. On the Amazon site it may be a generic name attributed to a product stemming from there.
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Old 01-12-21, 09:56 PM
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The batteries with the highest mAh rating will give you the longest run time.

Others have already said it. Many Chinese batteries have false ratings on them. They seem impressive, and increase sales. But they are scamming customers.

In the past, I bought some of these Chinese batteries. They worked fine, but I believe the actual mAh rating is now what is written on the side.

Last edited by alo; 01-12-21 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 01-16-21, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by alo
The batteries with the highest mAh rating will give you the longest run time.

Others have already said it. Many Chinese batteries have false ratings on them. They seem impressive, and increase sales. But they are scamming customers.

In the past, I bought some of these Chinese batteries. They worked fine, but I believe the actual mAh rating is now what is written on the side.
There are a lot of videos on youtube that show counterfeit 18650 where a small, much lower capacity cell is inserted in the shell of an 18650 with the terminals wired to the external poles, then packed with something like flour or sawdust. The battery reads the proper voltage, however the capacity is much lower than it should be.
I belong to a couple of flashlight forums. The primary one I visit is budget light forums (google it because I can't post links yet). A lot of very knowledgeable people are active there with a whole lot of information about batteries, flash lights, etc...
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Old 01-16-21, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by alo
The batteries with the highest mAh rating will give you the longest run time.
A battery's amp-hour rating gives some idea of the amount of energy that can be taken out of the battery.

A battery's amps rating gives an idea of the maximum current draw the battery will support.

Like someone else said the current draw of a light is well below even the low amp batteries, so go for the largest amp-hour rating to maximize run time.
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Old 01-16-21, 09:39 AM
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Counterfeiting electronics is a big deal, especially when safety is concerned. Teardowns sometime show VERY sophisticated imitations.
Batteries are a big problem here
I grew up with a family of pawnbrokers. who said "If you don't know diamonds, l know your jeweler."
Amazon FBA (Fulfilment By Amazon" can be problematic, they do not vet the vendors well. QA is by just making them give you money back ,rather than fixing the problems.
This allow problems to persist.
Not just a battery issue, but it means you have to know what you are up against.
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Old 01-17-21, 05:13 AM
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In Australia, some online sellers buy from Chinese manufacturers, and they themselves don't always know if the information they are given is true.

There are now Chinese who have moved to Australia, and knowingly scam customers. They would rather get a quick dollar, than a good reputation. There are too many for the authorities to deal with all of them. Many online sellers have a combination of good products, and fake products, so they also have many happy customers.
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Old 01-17-21, 08:20 PM
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I an also on a hunt for 18650 batteries for an older Fenix light. Seems like they have cells that charge directly with a micro usb cable without a need for a charger.
https://www.fenixlighting.com/produc...ble-batteries/

I have 2 Panasonic cells that were left in the battery case for a few months without use and they don't take charge anymore. I don't know much about batteries except for higher mah lasts longer, but wonder if these cells would've still worked if they had protected circuit.
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Old 01-18-21, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by slowpacer
I an also on a hunt for 18650 batteries for an older Fenix light. Seems like they have cells that charge directly with a micro usb cable without a need for a charger.
https://www.fenixlighting.com/produc...ble-batteries/

I have 2 Panasonic cells that were left in the battery case for a few months without use and they don't take charge anymore. I don't know much about batteries except for higher mah lasts longer, but wonder if these cells would've still worked if they had protected circuit.
The FENIX site says:
"The high capacity 18650 Li-ion rechargeable batteries each provide protection circuits in the anode to help prevent short circuits, over charge/discharge and over heating. "

Supposing you stored the PANASONIC cells at a very low state of charge, they could have self-discharged further, to the point where whatever you charge them with will not start charging as it might not be able to do so safely.

The FENIX site states it's protect circuit will prevent "over discharge". Probably that's while something is using the battery - like your bike light. While in use, it will shut off if you try to drain it too much (too far?).

Most likely if you drain the FENIX, then store it for a couple of months, it will not be able to charge either due to self-discharge. Seems like a lot of my bike lights say to charge them before storage and charge every three months.
I'm happy to get into the reasons why lithium cells have these protections baked it, but the ultimate answer is "prevent fire". Secondary answer, "lawyers".
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