View Poll Results: Would you consent to a bike search during a minor stop?
I'd consent and hopefully be on my way.
37
17.62%
I'd politely exercise my rights and refuse.
156
74.29%
I'd only refuse if I had something to hide.
10
4.76%
I don't think I have the right to refuse.
7
3.33%
Voters: 210. You may not vote on this poll
Would you consent to a bike search if asked?
06-01-09, 02:34 PM
#76
Senior Member
Subject of taking the bait hook line and sinker? 
I knew someone would take the bait, but I didn't expect it to be you, because you sounded somewhat intelligent till now. You even used your own stereotypes in your reply, how cute! Guess it goes to show that book smart doesn't always translate into common sense smart. Sucks to be you right now, the smart feller who got trolled by an old ex LEO.
Yes, you are a subject...and if you have any experience in the legal system, you know why...so other smart fellers cannot interpret the words to mean that the LEO has some bias towards the person....the subject...they are dealing with. Thank the legal system for forcing cops to use dehumanizing terminology, pal, lord knows most would much rather just be able to be themselves and pal around with you...maybe take a warm shower and sing Kumbuya too.
I knew someone would take the bait, but I didn't expect it to be you, because you sounded somewhat intelligent till now. You even used your own stereotypes in your reply, how cute! Guess it goes to show that book smart doesn't always translate into common sense smart. Sucks to be you right now, the smart feller who got trolled by an old ex LEO.
Yes, you are a subject...and if you have any experience in the legal system, you know why...so other smart fellers cannot interpret the words to mean that the LEO has some bias towards the person....the subject...they are dealing with. Thank the legal system for forcing cops to use dehumanizing terminology, pal, lord knows most would much rather just be able to be themselves and pal around with you...maybe take a warm shower and sing Kumbuya too.
Cops' attitude is best summed up by one of your own:
"Former Seattle Police Chief and LEAP member Norm Stamper has a great piece at Huffington Post discussing police brutality. Chief Stamper is a gentleman and an outspoken advocate for criminal justice reform, but there was a time when he was a tough-guy cop who didn't always play by the rules:
So, why did I abuse the very people I'd been hired to serve?
Not to get too psychological, I did it because the power of my position went straight to my head; because other cops I'd come to admire did it; and because I thought I could get away with it. Which I did--until a principled prosecutor slapped me upside the head and demanded to know whether the U.S. Constitution meant anything to me."
Maybe you could learn a thing or two? Or can't we teach old dogs new tricks?
06-01-09, 02:35 PM
#77
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06-01-09, 02:45 PM
#78
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If I already have probable cause to search, what difference does it make whether they refuse or not? If I have probable cause, is that what you want, some mindless drone to just treat you like some criminal right off the bat? Courtesy and doing what you can to get a first impression of the person is not a crime last I heard...even for cops. You all need to make up your minds what you want for cops...dumbass robots or humans.
But could it be that your p.c. is of dubious legitimacy, and by getting consent, you've rendered it moot? Could it be that with every word I utter, I begin to surrender my 4th, 5th and/or 6th Amendment rights? But you knew that, didn't you? Am I to believe you won't take advantage of my naivete? Sorry, this ain't Mayberry and you ain't Sheriff Taylor.
Nobody is advocating discourteous behavior on either party's part. As for me, you'll get courtesy and the same amount of respect you've given me. But that is all you can expect. And that's all I expect of a cop. Not tricks, not lectures, not intimidation, not premature interrogations, and certainly not psychological head games. These things are disrespectful. A cop is not my "buddy". He is not on my side if I didn't summon him. Unfortunately for you, I know that. I know it drives cops crazy when people know and, god forbid, exercise their rights, but if you want a victim, you'll need to look elsewhere than me.
As to whether or not I want dumbass robots or humans, that's the wrong question. The question should be; what do I have here, dressed in a cop uniform? Is it a dumbass robot or a human? How can I tell? Sorry, but a badge is not a humanity certificate. Since I can never know whether I've been stopped by a human or a robot, (and it can vary day to day or hour to hour), I refuse to play amateur psychologist. What I know for sure is that I am opening myself up to severe consequences for assuming humanity on your part. Therefore, I am forced by reality to take the safe course and assume I'm dealing with a dumbass robot. Nothing personal. If you don't like it, take it up with your fellow cops. It's their fault no one trusts you anymore.
BTW, how's that blue wall of silence holding up?
Last edited by Sailorman13; 06-01-09 at 02:49 PM.
06-01-09, 02:53 PM
#79
Senior Member
If you have probable cause and it makes no difference whether I refuse or not, why are you asking? Head games perhaps? If you have p.c. and I refuse, you'll search anyway. If I consent, will you not search because I'm cooperative and a nice guy? Even though you have p.c.? You wouldn't be doing your job then, now would you?
But could it be that your p.c. is of dubious legitimacy, and by getting consent, you've rendered it moot? Could it be that with every word I utter, I begin to surrender my 4th, 5th and/or 6th Amendment rights? But you knew that, didn't you? Am I to believe you won't take advantage of my naivete? Sorry, this ain't Mayberry and you ain't Sheriff Taylor.
Nobody is advocating discourteous behavior on either party's part. As for me, you'll get courtesy and the same amount of respect you've given me. But that is all you can expect. And that's all I expect of a cop. Not tricks, not lectures, not intimidation, not premature interrogations, and certainly not psychological head games. These things are disrespectful. A cop is not my "buddy". He is not on my side if I didn't summon him. Unfortunately for you, I know that. I know it drives cops crazy when people know and, god forbid, exercise their rights, but if you want a victim, you'll need to look elsewhere than me.
As to whether or not I want dumbass robots or humans, that's the wrong question. The question should be; what do I have here, dressed in a cop uniform? Is it a dumbass robot or a human? How can I tell? Sorry, but a badge is not a humanity certificate. Since I can never know whether I've been stopped by a human or a robot, (and it can vary day to day or hour to hour), I refuse to play amateur psychologist. What I know for sure is that I am opening myself up to severe consequences for assuming humanity on your part. Therefore, I am forced by reality to take the safe course and assume I'm dealing with a dumbass robot. Nothing personal. If you don't like it, take it up with your fellow cops. It's their fault no one trusts you anymore.
BTW, how's that blue wall of silence holding up?
But could it be that your p.c. is of dubious legitimacy, and by getting consent, you've rendered it moot? Could it be that with every word I utter, I begin to surrender my 4th, 5th and/or 6th Amendment rights? But you knew that, didn't you? Am I to believe you won't take advantage of my naivete? Sorry, this ain't Mayberry and you ain't Sheriff Taylor.
Nobody is advocating discourteous behavior on either party's part. As for me, you'll get courtesy and the same amount of respect you've given me. But that is all you can expect. And that's all I expect of a cop. Not tricks, not lectures, not intimidation, not premature interrogations, and certainly not psychological head games. These things are disrespectful. A cop is not my "buddy". He is not on my side if I didn't summon him. Unfortunately for you, I know that. I know it drives cops crazy when people know and, god forbid, exercise their rights, but if you want a victim, you'll need to look elsewhere than me.
As to whether or not I want dumbass robots or humans, that's the wrong question. The question should be; what do I have here, dressed in a cop uniform? Is it a dumbass robot or a human? How can I tell? Sorry, but a badge is not a humanity certificate. Since I can never know whether I've been stopped by a human or a robot, (and it can vary day to day or hour to hour), I refuse to play amateur psychologist. What I know for sure is that I am opening myself up to severe consequences for assuming humanity on your part. Therefore, I am forced by reality to take the safe course and assume I'm dealing with a dumbass robot. Nothing personal. If you don't like it, take it up with your fellow cops. It's their fault no one trusts you anymore.
BTW, how's that blue wall of silence holding up?
06-01-09, 03:02 PM
#80
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In the situation described I would decline ot give permission to search my bike. A bit different than refusing. There are some other potentially interesting situations I have a potential to become involved in and I have heard from several sources (including one lawyer who specializes in this area) and for those situations the advised answer is 'I will not stop you, but I also will not grant permission'.....
The answer "I will not stop you, but will not grant permission" is useful in the case described by Chipcom where he claims he has p.c. but asks permission anyway. That would preserve your rights if it turns out that his p.c. was bogus. If a cop says or implies he has p.c., but still asks for your consent, I would tell him that I won't attempt to stop him, but I am most definitely not consenting. If he merely requests consent, I will refuse such consent. If he insists on searching anyway, I will continue to refuse consent, but will not refuse to allow it to proceed. I will merely make it abundantly clear that it's being done without my consent.
06-03-09, 10:34 AM
#82
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Sorry,no fishing trips available here.
Just ask them for there picture ID,that always throws them for a loop.I do that all the time.Most will show you with no problem,but there are some that think they don't have too,"the badge is good enough" HA! You show me yours and I'll show you mine,otherwise,you could be a child molester dressed in a cop uniform for all I know..They also have the right to prove to YOUR satisfaction that they are who they say they are.Just because they look like a cop,doesn't mean that they are.
Just ask them for there picture ID,that always throws them for a loop.I do that all the time.Most will show you with no problem,but there are some that think they don't have too,"the badge is good enough" HA! You show me yours and I'll show you mine,otherwise,you could be a child molester dressed in a cop uniform for all I know..They also have the right to prove to YOUR satisfaction that they are who they say they are.Just because they look like a cop,doesn't mean that they are.
06-03-09, 11:12 AM
#83
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If you have probable cause and it makes no difference whether I refuse or not, why are you asking? Head games perhaps? If you have p.c. and I refuse, you'll search anyway. If I consent, will you not search because I'm cooperative and a nice guy? Even though you have p.c.? You wouldn't be doing your job then, now would you?
But could it be that your p.c. is of dubious legitimacy, and by getting consent, you've rendered it moot? Could it be that with every word I utter, I begin to surrender my 4th, 5th and/or 6th Amendment rights? But you knew that, didn't you? Am I to believe you won't take advantage of my naivete? Sorry, this ain't Mayberry and you ain't Sheriff Taylor.
Nobody is advocating discourteous behavior on either party's part. As for me, you'll get courtesy and the same amount of respect you've given me. But that is all you can expect. And that's all I expect of a cop. Not tricks, not lectures, not intimidation, not premature interrogations, and certainly not psychological head games. These things are disrespectful. A cop is not my "buddy". He is not on my side if I didn't summon him. Unfortunately for you, I know that. I know it drives cops crazy when people know and, god forbid, exercise their rights, but if you want a victim, you'll need to look elsewhere than me.
As to whether or not I want dumbass robots or humans, that's the wrong question. The question should be; what do I have here, dressed in a cop uniform? Is it a dumbass robot or a human? How can I tell? Sorry, but a badge is not a humanity certificate. Since I can never know whether I've been stopped by a human or a robot, (and it can vary day to day or hour to hour), I refuse to play amateur psychologist. What I know for sure is that I am opening myself up to severe consequences for assuming humanity on your part. Therefore, I am forced by reality to take the safe course and assume I'm dealing with a dumbass robot. Nothing personal. If you don't like it, take it up with your fellow cops. It's their fault no one trusts you anymore.
BTW, how's that blue wall of silence holding up?
But could it be that your p.c. is of dubious legitimacy, and by getting consent, you've rendered it moot? Could it be that with every word I utter, I begin to surrender my 4th, 5th and/or 6th Amendment rights? But you knew that, didn't you? Am I to believe you won't take advantage of my naivete? Sorry, this ain't Mayberry and you ain't Sheriff Taylor.
Nobody is advocating discourteous behavior on either party's part. As for me, you'll get courtesy and the same amount of respect you've given me. But that is all you can expect. And that's all I expect of a cop. Not tricks, not lectures, not intimidation, not premature interrogations, and certainly not psychological head games. These things are disrespectful. A cop is not my "buddy". He is not on my side if I didn't summon him. Unfortunately for you, I know that. I know it drives cops crazy when people know and, god forbid, exercise their rights, but if you want a victim, you'll need to look elsewhere than me.
As to whether or not I want dumbass robots or humans, that's the wrong question. The question should be; what do I have here, dressed in a cop uniform? Is it a dumbass robot or a human? How can I tell? Sorry, but a badge is not a humanity certificate. Since I can never know whether I've been stopped by a human or a robot, (and it can vary day to day or hour to hour), I refuse to play amateur psychologist. What I know for sure is that I am opening myself up to severe consequences for assuming humanity on your part. Therefore, I am forced by reality to take the safe course and assume I'm dealing with a dumbass robot. Nothing personal. If you don't like it, take it up with your fellow cops. It's their fault no one trusts you anymore.
BTW, how's that blue wall of silence holding up?
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
06-03-09, 11:51 AM
#84
Senior Member
I don't live in fear, I just fight back at every opportunity. We all get the government we deserve; some of us keep fighting to make it better, some of us just kiss its ass hoping it doesn't bother us.
06-03-09, 12:00 PM
#85
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If you had probable cause, asked politely to search my vehicle/bike/whatever, and I declined, how would this change the outcome of you searching? i.e.: Would you respect my refusal, or would you still search anyway?
06-03-09, 12:46 PM
#86
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Who can argue with that! 
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
06-03-09, 12:53 PM
#87
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__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
06-03-09, 02:20 PM
#88
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06-03-09, 03:57 PM
#89
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Your question has created a bit of a dilemma here.
If he answers "no", he undercuts his own argument and exposes himself as a typical manipulating cop, albeit a professional one.
If he answers "yes", he admits to some combination and degree of negligence, bias, unprofessionalism and laziness.
So, the best he, or any cop, can do with that question is to answer "maybe".
Last edited by Sailorman13; 06-03-09 at 04:04 PM.
06-03-09, 04:14 PM
#90
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...As others so eloquently pointed out when they took my earlier bait...you are all people, not mere 'subjects'...I wanna get to know you...I want to know if you are the kind of person I want to abuse with a body cavity search or just have a beer with before I plant my incriminating evidence that will send you to prison and a stint as biatch to a 300lb skinhead hillbilly named Bubba.
06-03-09, 06:52 PM
#92
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The question for LEO is what advise they give to their family and friends. Mine told me to get a good lawyer and don't say anything other then the basic ID. What I noticed is that most people don't change much when they become LEO.
06-03-09, 07:53 PM
#93
Full Member
My husband and I were actually searched by TSA on a ferry, with our tandem.
This was on Bike Virginia in 2007. The TSA officer counted off bicycles on the ferry, and our tandem was the lucky number. I think he also selected a random motor vehicle.
It was a mild search - nothing like the airport.
He asked if we had any weapons, we said no. He waved his wand over our steel tandem and rack trunk (beeping all the time). He waved the wand over each of us. I told him it would beep on the artificial leg. And that was that.
This was on Bike Virginia in 2007. The TSA officer counted off bicycles on the ferry, and our tandem was the lucky number. I think he also selected a random motor vehicle.
It was a mild search - nothing like the airport.
He asked if we had any weapons, we said no. He waved his wand over our steel tandem and rack trunk (beeping all the time). He waved the wand over each of us. I told him it would beep on the artificial leg. And that was that.
06-03-09, 08:53 PM
#95
GadgetJim57
I think it depends on the situation ... If the cops were harassing me for no reason, and it seemed like I had no chance to win, I would most likely give in, and kiss their ass, just so I would not end up in jail.
It the cops were polite, and listened to me, and it seemed like I could exercise my rights, I would refuse to be searched. I have nothing to hide, but I also have rights, but sometimes the police abuse their authority ....
It the cops were polite, and listened to me, and it seemed like I could exercise my rights, I would refuse to be searched. I have nothing to hide, but I also have rights, but sometimes the police abuse their authority ....
06-03-09, 09:05 PM
#96
GadgetJim57
Man, when I get a trailer .... They might have to call in the special forces to search everything I'm hauling ... !!!
06-03-09, 09:15 PM
#97
GadgetJim57
That's a good point but remember the phrase is "refusal to consent to a search". That's different than refusing to allow a search, whether it be legitimate, or based on a fishing expedition.
The answer "I will not stop you, but will not grant permission" is useful in the case described by Chipcom where he claims he has p.c. but asks permission anyway. That would preserve your rights if it turns out that his p.c. was bogus. If a cop says or implies he has p.c., but still asks for your consent, I would tell him that I won't attempt to stop him, but I am most definitely not consenting. If he merely requests consent, I will refuse such consent. If he insists on searching anyway, I will continue to refuse consent, but will not refuse to allow it to proceed. I will merely make it abundantly clear that it's being done without my consent.
The answer "I will not stop you, but will not grant permission" is useful in the case described by Chipcom where he claims he has p.c. but asks permission anyway. That would preserve your rights if it turns out that his p.c. was bogus. If a cop says or implies he has p.c., but still asks for your consent, I would tell him that I won't attempt to stop him, but I am most definitely not consenting. If he merely requests consent, I will refuse such consent. If he insists on searching anyway, I will continue to refuse consent, but will not refuse to allow it to proceed. I will merely make it abundantly clear that it's being done without my consent.
06-04-09, 12:42 AM
#98
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I've been on a couple police ride-a-long's and once the officer asked a druggie looking dude if he could search the car. The guy said yes and the police officer told him "Since you are being cooperative I'm just going to go ahead an let you go. Have a nice day." When the officer got back to the car I asked him why he asked to search the car but didn't. He told me he didn't think the guy had drugs on him that time, but by doing what he did the guy would be more likely to consent to a search in the future when he may have drugs on him.
I would not give consent to a search unless I felt there were a strong benefit to the general public good to do so (e.g. there was a kidnapping of a child in the immediate area and the police wanted to do a quick search of all vehicles passing by--and, of course, assuming I wasn't the kidnapper
Last edited by Bm7b5; 06-04-09 at 12:45 AM.
06-04-09, 05:59 AM
#99
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__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
06-04-09, 06:02 AM
#100
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Note that you didn't get a straightforward answer. That's because, however much he doesn't want you to know it, the answer is "no". Probable cause would result in a search regardless. That's how it should be. If a cop has a legal basis for a search, and an honest basis to believe you have, or are about to, commit a crime, he shouldn't spare you a search based on his "feelings" about whether he'd like to have a beer with you. (Lot's of people voted like that and look what it got us!) I don't know about the legality of it, but it certainly is unprofessional.
Your question has created a bit of a dilemma here.
If he answers "no", he undercuts his own argument and exposes himself as a typical manipulating cop, albeit a professional one.
If he answers "yes", he admits to some combination and degree of negligence, bias, unprofessionalism and laziness.
So, the best he, or any cop, can do with that question is to answer "maybe".
Your question has created a bit of a dilemma here.
If he answers "no", he undercuts his own argument and exposes himself as a typical manipulating cop, albeit a professional one.
If he answers "yes", he admits to some combination and degree of negligence, bias, unprofessionalism and laziness.
So, the best he, or any cop, can do with that question is to answer "maybe".
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey