jsutkeepspining

I use races as checks for my ftp all the time. I think most people over think testing ftp/ftp itself. If i do x watts normalized for an hour in a crit i can assume that my ftp is near x. Now you can't just use one data point, but if you have multiple files all saying the same thing, i would trust it (plus it's not hard to tell if your ftp is just way too high/low). Tests have validated my stand point. Then again an np buster is much harder the stronger you are.

also the file looks to be missing zeros from the data. Might want to go in and correct the file.

Dunbar

Isn't one of the seven deadly sins for estimating FTP to use NP from a ~1 hour race?

echappist

the seven sins aren't a list of things you shouldn't do. the seven sins are instead seven method of estimating FTP, each of which with potential drawbacks

now for the instant case, NP is 340, AP is below 280 as 20min AP is 280. This suggest a course prone to inflating NP, perhaps one with a particularly long false flat. In which case, i would say FTP is closer to 280 than it is to 340

jmikami

NP from a 1 hour race is 4th in the list, but that doesn't mean don't do it, just meant it was not the best. I use a combination of 2,3 and 4 as I am not one to do many 60 minute TTs and just don't use FTP as a method of training so much as a general measure of fitness and to show results of training. I just base my FTP off my recent hard rides/races that are over an hour and compare to hard 20 minute efforts during my rides to ensure it is on pace. Then I plot a likely increasing curve into my TSS spreadsheet to slowly bring up my FTP during the season and cross check numbers every so often so there is not a large jump in FTP or drop in TSS.

For me training is all based on effort for the duration and that is done by average power for the interval duration and then using that as the next target and increasing as needed until I can't hold that power for that duration.

On another note, in my last race I downloaded my numbers and I broke every power PR from 2 to 40 minutes ... sweet!

Then after noticing I not only broke my PR, but smashed it by upto 20% I decided to have a closer look ... power meter was off! Damn. I guess I can't use a broken power meter to gauge my FTP, power PR numbers are now reset back to previous numbers .... so sad.

jmikami

Can anyone think of a situation that could produce the 20 minute power number on the previous page that is 50 watts lower than the 50 minute number? I can't, and I think the numbers must be a bit messed up. The only think that could come close would be a huge spike at the start, middle and end, but in that case the NP would be much greater than the ave for the 50 minutes and not the same, and the average would still have to be close to the 20 minute average. Those numbers do not pass my sniff test at all.

jsutkeepspining

the head unit was probably set to not include zeros in the average, which can lead to something like what we have seen (the 20 minute power is probably from a training website, which would include the zeros in the calculation). Therefore, the np probably isn't perfect either (if zeros were not included).

I think np for a 1 hour race is fine start to finding your ftp, if you want to be 100% sure you can do a 40 k tt, or if you're more "normal" about training and specifics you can just use regular 2x20 values or a .95 of 20 minute value. Basically just stick to one way of detecting ftp and use it.

jsutkeepspining

Honest question, does anyone really break prs in races? I am never in a situation where in a race i would put out a max value over 1 minute or so, just because there will always be some type of fatigue, where as when i'm setting my power maxs i'm relatively fresh. Now i do not have 20+ minute climbs, which i could see would lead to some pr smashing (i do get high np values, but rarely are my races super ap crazy.)

aaronmcd

The only PR I set in a race was 1" and 5" power in the middle of a slow road race when I wanted to go up to break but was already sitting on the front in Z2 so I cranked the hell out of my pedals. I've only ever come within 100 watts of that number before or after.

Creatre

I break almost all my PRs past 1min in racing. During training I fatigue myself before getting to the intervals, and then don't go all out on the first one, so never truly go all out. I also ride harder in racing than I can replicate by myself.

jmikami

I rarely break any PR numbers in a race, except for 20 minutes and beyond. I rarely train hard for 20 minutes, so it takes a race to hit the long numbers, but I agree I rarely risk going 100% all out during a race. My recovery is not good enough to handle that. So that should have been my first clue my power meter was bad. But I had just finished my week of overload training and followed by rest, and usually get a kick coming out if it, so I was thinking it was possible.

I was wrong.

Creatre, I think you might be doing it wrong, but making your self tired before the intervals kinda defeats the purpose. The point of in interval is you can go all out without risk of fatigue causing you to get dropped. Find a friend and go ride some hill repeats and use each other to blow up, then rest and repeat. Having a carrot is needed for most, for me my power meter works as the carrot, for others you need actual people to follow or a race to motivate you, but if you go too hard in a race you get dropped.

Ygduf

My power PRs never come from races. I have gotten closer lately as I've been trying to min/max more in races and do less work unless I'm really really working, though.

Creatre

I'm pretty sure I'm not doing it wrong, and I think my credentials agree with that, but everyone has their own approach.

Doing my intervals at the end of a ride ensures I get maximum tss for the ride, and prepares the body to do hard efforts towards the end of a race. I don't go all out during intervals because I'm working on specific regions of my power range to build power and I do so many that if I went all out during the first I wouldn't be able to complete the workout.

Creatre

I actually just went back through my records for PRs for 2013, and 5s,15s,1min,10min all came from random rides, almost all were from chasing strava segments. 5min came from a climb at the end of a long RR, where I'd gather my power meter was just off zero, and 20min+ all came from a single race I was in a breakaway. So technically none of mine came from "training" but I forgot I do have those rare rides where I'm fresher and do a single all out effort which usually breaks PRs. I generally like structure so don't do those too many.

jmikami

It just seems to buck common knowledge to do intervals when tired. I also tend to think full power intervals are better for you, but I think that is a more personal thing as I know many who do less than full power for intervals and they seem to do ok as well. I also agree everyone has their own approach and if it works for you good job, half the battle in this sport is making it work for you.

Many of my power PRs have come from Strava segment chasing as well, I would consider those training miles as a race result is not on the line so I can go as slow and die after the effort.

globecanvas

All of my power PRs above 2 minutes are from races. Below 2 minutes are all from fresh, all-out efforts on random rides.

It's because I can go harder when fresh, but way deeper in a race. I'm much better at suffering in a race than I am in training. In fact it's fair to say that I suck at suffering when training.

globecanvas

Oh, and I have only ever done one FTP test, when I first got a power meter. I do so many threshold intervals that I feel I have a very good idea of where FTP is and when it changes.

furiousferret

I've gotten the majority of my power pr's under 3 minutes while racing, TNWs or the training crit. The higher stuff is usually from hill climbs. I just can't get big power numbers in the flats, mostly due to lack of inspiration.

The better my -:10 second power gets the lower my overall power gets. When my top 5 second power was in 700's, its was brutal trying to stay attached and it would take 3x longer to get on a wheel. Its not drastically higher now but the improvement makes a huge difference in overall energy expenditure.

shovelhd

That's all well and good, but you are at best guessing. Just do the test ferchrissake.

shovelhd

A 20 minute threshold interval after a good warmup is a perfectly good test., assuming your threshold is accurate.

shovelhd

Credentials?

shovelhd

+1

waterrockets 

All of my power records have been from training (well, testing), not racing. I can push myself 100% solo, with a training partner, or in a race. It's just that in the race, I don't have a full tank, where in testing, I can prepare myself specifically for the test.

It's surprising to me that so many racers are the opposite. For me, motivation just doesn't matter (once I've decided to test anyway... some motivation is required to commit to the test ). 100% is 100%, and if I'm testing, I set it like a dial. I can put the dial there in a race too, but the power supply can't back it up (comparatively).

Ygduf

^^ this.

I go as hard as I can in training and in races. In training I can soft pedal out to a 20-minute hill and jam it. In races, it's never that clean = all my power PRs come from taining.

jmikami

I completely disagree with this. For some of us doing a 60 minute TT just doesn't get the motor running and makes for a bigger margin of error than ride analysis. I have no interest in it, it kills my mojo, and the number it would give would add 0% to my training.

Reviewing your power data from rides is a very valid method of figuring out your FTP to the degree needed to get decent TSS and other numbers. I would go further and say doing a continual analysis of your rides, specifically similar hard efforts is a better measure of FTP, fitness and general training results for me than a 20 or 60 minute TT would ever give me. Might be great for you and for some others, but I really don't think it will give me any meaningful data.

jmikami

on this same issue of PRs and power numbers, does anyone here set PRs on the flats while at higher RPMs, or do you set them like I do ... uphill, standing and at lower RPMs.

I am starting to track two power numbers. Hill Power numbers and then seated flat high RPM power numbers. I am finding the two numbers are very different and that it is causing problems for my track work. Going out as hard as I can on a flat surface at 110 RPM gives me a totally different power number than 70 RPM up a 6% grade. Adjusting my goals and training has been a bit of a morale letdown, but something that I think is helping my leg speed and general race fitness.