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Help me not hate tubulars!

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Help me not hate tubulars!

Old 10-15-19, 08:36 PM
  #101  
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Was puzzling over the post above about how Vittoria Mastik will re-tack. I use that glue and have not observed as much. Then realized I've simply not had that many flats in recent years. Wear the tires out before they flat. And the spare carried has often been one I just didn't care if it tacked, didn't want the good tires living mashed up under the saddle and always new glue at home.

One reason the old red glue re-tacked well was it would have been kinda rare the glue on the rim was all that old. Flats happened real regular. When we all did big miles all the time tires wore out in weeks. New glue all the time. Maybe in winter glue got real dry. Not many had the rack of bikes collectors end up with. The bike with the tubulars was the only bike with tubulars and was the bike chosen for almost every ride.

Yes, Salamandrine, it's a natural product. It was called mastice gutta because it was gutta percha from the palaquium gutta tree of Malaysia. The form of latex produced by that tree. Rubbertree latex is amorphous, gutta latex crystallizes giving it strength. Had thousands of uses in late 19th century before plastics and chemistry took over. The tree is still there but the product is commercially extinct.

An item no one has mentioned yet is tubular rims are just plain stronger than clincher rims. They ride better because they are strong and there is nothing in the way. They are still lighter than anything but the highest priced carbon rims.

The very nicest of current clincher rims look OK on vintage bikes. There is nothing like the look of a flat tubular rim on an old bike. That clincher rim is still way heavier than the tubular rim. The supply of still clean or NOS tubular rims does not seem to be dwindling. Next in my build queue is a late 1940s black label Weinmann woodfill that weighs in at 305grams and measures 24mm wide. Sure the long nipples and the washers run the weight up a bit. 5 Euro for a never built rim in lovely condition.
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Old 10-16-19, 05:45 AM
  #102  
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"5 Euro for a never built rim in lovely condition."
12 years ago my LBS's master wheelbuilder decided to retire. As they knew I build my own wheels they told me I should be able to buy some top flight tub rims from the old master. I duly got in touch and asked if he was willing to part with a pair of rims from his personal stock. He agreed and I asked a price, he said just the postage. A large parcel arrived (about 20 dollars postage) and inside were 16 brand new Ally rims that I only seen on professional racing/track bikes.
As it transpired the LBS said old wheelbuilder couldn't give them away.
I built 6 wheelset with Campag hubs and rode them 150 miles a week for the next ten years. It was a nightmare. I persisted coz I knew they were top of the range and aesthetically appealing but in the end I found the cost compared to having a fold up clincher, a few spare tubes and a patch kit was of the magnitude of ten or even hundred if you punctured a top of the range road tubular.
A few years later the old master wheelbuilder died and my LBS gave me another bundle still in the old fiber wax paper they left the factory in 40 years ago. I gave my wheelsets and some rims to various hipsters in the neighbourhood the remaining, at least 20 NOS rims, went in the municipal scrap yard.

Last edited by Johno59; 10-16-19 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 10-16-19, 07:38 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott
It's about the experience. This is C&V and tubulars are part of the package with old-timey nice bikes. At least as much as steel frames, toe clips, slotted cleats, downtube shifters, and exposed cables. They do give a very nice ride, but I'd bet none of the tubular fans in here use them for any perceived performance advantage. I understand why some people don't want to bother with them, but I don't understand the need for people to make strawman arguments against them. >>>SNIP>>>.
An excellent point. Some of us riding vintage steel frames are in the game for the whole salad mix of obsolete, arcane and fading technologies of the past. Don't even bother asking me if I am going to pull off my Mavic GP-4's or Montherlys and spoke up new clincher rims to remount my ancient Campagnolo, '600' or Dura Ace hubs in order to convert to clinchers. DUH!

And the last time I bought a set of rims to lace in a mint set of old Campy hubs, I went with an NOS set of Mavics — gorgeous! Was it just to be consistent with much (not all) of the rest of my wheels sets? Yes, but it was more than that. It's about what Scott was saying: it's the satisfaction of doing it the old way — of re-living a former age of cycling. I still wear decades old wind-up watches, old shoes made of real leather, and shirts that actually need ironing. I dunno — sometimes more trouble, but I just like them! But at the same time, it doesn't mean I hate quartz timepieces, eschew Cordovan or drip-dry shirts.
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Old 10-16-19, 09:58 AM
  #104  
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Those were the days

Originally Posted by Johno59
"5 Euro for a never built rim in lovely condition."
12 years ago my LBS's master wheelbuilder decided to retire. As they knew I build my own wheels they told me I should be able to buy some top flight tub rims from the old master. I duly got in touch and asked if he was willing to part with a pair of rims from his personal stock. He agreed and I asked a price, he said just the postage. A large parcel arrived (about 20 dollars postage) and inside were 16 brand new Ally rims that I only seen on professional racing/track bikes.
As it transpired the LBS said old wheelbuilder couldn't give them away.
I built 6 wheelset with Campag hubs and rode them 150 miles a week for the next ten years. It was a nightmare. I persisted coz I knew they were top of the range and aesthetically appealing but in the end I found the cost compared to having a fold up clincher, a few spare tubes and a patch kit was of the magnitude of ten or even hundred if you punctured a top of the range road tubular.
A few years later the old master wheelbuilder died and my LBS gave me another bundle still in the old fiber wax paper they left the factory in 40 years ago. I gave my wheelsets and some rims to various hipsters in the neighbourhood the remaining, at least 20 NOS rims, went in the municipal scrap yard.
Originally Posted by Lenton58
An excellent point. Some of us riding vintage steel frames are in the game for the whole salad mix of obsolete, arcane and fading technologies of the past. Don't even bother asking me if I am going to pull off my Mavic GP-4's or Montherlys and spoke up new clincher rims to remount my ancient Campagnolo, '600' or Dura Ace hubs in order to convert to clinchers. DUH!

And the last time I bought a set of rims to lace in a mint set of old Campy hubs, I went with an NOS set of Mavics — gorgeous! Was it just to be consistent with much (not all) of the rest of my wheels sets? Yes, but it was more than that. It's about what Scott was saying: it's the satisfaction of doing it the old way — of re-living a former age of cycling. I still wear decades old wind-up watches, old shoes made of real leather, and shirts that actually need ironing. I dunno — sometimes more trouble, but I just like them! But at the same time, it doesn't mean I hate quartz timepieces, eschew Cordovan or drip-dry shirts.
Clincher wheels have been around for more than a hundred years. Tubulars were /are designed for enhanced speed performance. For every bicycle that is a hundred years old and sports tubulars as standard you will find thousands that have never seen a tub.
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Old 10-16-19, 10:19 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott
It's about the experience. This is C&V and tubulars are part of the package with old-timey nice bikes. At least as much as steel frames, toe clips, slotted cleats, downtube shifters, and exposed cables. They do give a very nice ride, but I'd bet none of the tubular fans in here use them for any perceived performance advantage. I understand why some people don't want to bother with them, but I don't understand the need for people to make strawman arguments against them.
This is my closest point of entry into this discussion. I use clinchers and am quite happy with them. High quality clinchers ride great. However, I do have a set of tubular wheels that I built for my De Rosa for L'Eroica a couple of years ago. I did that specifically to get the "complete package" experience. I cheated and used the Mariposa tape instead of putting myself through the embarrassment and pain of learning the gluing process, but I wanted to ride with tubulars.

They were nice. I had an issue with one of the stems and ended up pinch flatting because I tried to ride with the pressure too low. The Mariposa sealant seems to have fixed the problem, but I don't really trust that tire enough for a long ride. Psychologically, I think it's very similar to the way I get skittish on fast descents after having a horrible speed wobble issue. I can convince myself that it's not a problem, but I'm just more comfortable with clinchers. I'll probably try to ease myself back into it eventually, taking the tubies out on short rides until I can build up some trust in them. Anecdotally, I have a 25% failure rate for rides with tubulars.
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Old 10-16-19, 10:28 AM
  #106  
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Its 2019 and doubt any here are pro.

That said, tubulars are still very much the standard when it comes to road stages. In that setting, teams and riders still place more value in the security and safety that tubulars provide in the event of a puncture. After all, a well-glued tubular will reliably stay on the rim when flat, even at higher speeds, but the same can’t be said of many tubeless setups right now.

For further info and what the pro's ride, when and why.
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Old 10-16-19, 11:06 AM
  #107  
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The Gold Medal Tubular

After the master died I fell upon one of his exquisite track tubular wheel sets that seemed to be made of nothing. The spokes were soldered and were literally like piano wire. I (stupidly and shamefully) rode them for about 20 or 30 miles and they collapsed. I asked my LBS what was the point of such extraordinary fragility in a set of wheels. He said if you make the gold medal race in velodrome at the Olympic Games you mount those bad boys coz only a set of beautiful wheels like those gives you the chance to 8 no bring the medal home.

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Old 10-16-19, 11:47 AM
  #108  
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It's a little too easy to look at this through the lense of 2019. Take yourselves back 3 or 4 + decades. BITD there really wasn't any sort of realistic comparison between tubulars and clinchers. Not an apple and oranges thing at all. If you were interested in going fast, you rode tubulars. Simple as that. Tubulars had many advantages: lighter, stronger, less rolling resistance, easy to change on the road, safer if flatted.

There's another argument, tubulars were cheaper. When if first got seriously into cycling, 'Turbo' clinchers had just come out. This was arguably the first high performance clincher. While a clincher wheel with a turbo tire on it would be a little heavier than a basic sew up training wheel, they were at least in the same ballpark. However, I used to ride a lot of miles, and I'd burn up a turbo in two weeks. There just wasn't much tire there. By contrast, any basic training sew up would last at least 3 times longer, cost less, and was lighter. I wasn't hardly overflowing with cash as a teenager, and the sew ups were simply more cost effective. I did give clinchers a try for a time, but quickly soured on them. It was either $$$ tires that lasted two weeks, or lead slug tires. The latter is no fun at all when you're trying to beat your 'friends' up the hills.

Nowadays it's a different story. I still have sew ups on my Masi, because otherwise would be sacrilege, but otherwise I can't be bothered to ride sew ups when such nice clinchers are around in the last decade or so. I admit clinchers still suck when you have to change a flat on the road. Ugh. Full respect for those that still roll on the tubs. Yep, that light feeling you get with low rotating mass is just viscerally pleasant, and the pleasant whir if on a fancy racing tire makes it even better.


Originally Posted by 63rickert
Yes, Salamandrine, it's a natural product. It was called mastice gutta because it was gutta percha from the palaquium gutta tree of Malaysia. The form of latex produced by that tree. Rubbertree latex is amorphous, gutta latex crystallizes giving it strength. Had thousands of uses in late 19th century before plastics and chemistry took over. The tree is still there but the product is commercially extinct.
Thanks for that info. I had just assumed that "gutta" was an Italian generic term for glue, wrongly I guess. It makes sense that it actually is a gutta percha based adhesive.
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Old 10-16-19, 04:46 PM
  #109  
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I generally only use tubulars on tubular rims.
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Old 10-16-19, 05:02 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by Johno59
A few years later the old master wheelbuilder died and my LBS gave me another bundle still in the old fiber wax paper they left the factory in 40 years ago. I gave my wheelsets and some rims to various hipsters in the neighbourhood the remaining, at least 20 NOS rims, went in the municipal scrap yard.
This is exactly what is happening.

If you don't understand it, trash it.

Happened a while ago to a building I'd roofed. New owners couldn't figure out what that funny yellow stuff on the roof was. So they tore it off. And nothing else would keep the weather out. Two hundred thousand square foot building was torn down. Thirty-five hundred union jobs went bye-bye. Because a couple guys didn't know anything.
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Old 10-17-19, 05:27 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by Johno59
After the master died I fell upon one of his exquisite track tubular wheel sets that seemed to be made of nothing. The spokes were soldered and were literally like piano wire. I (stupidly and shamefully) rode them for about 20 or 30 miles and they collapsed. I asked my LBS what was the point of such extraordinary fragility in a set of wheels. He said if you make the gold medal race in velodrome at the Olympic Games you mount those bad boys coz only a set of beautiful wheels like those gives you the chance to 8 no bring the medal home.
Gold medals are not won on fragile equipment. Not a chance. Nothing endures random indiscriminate abuse. Everything is damaged by mockery and scorn.
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Old 10-17-19, 07:44 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Johno59
Clincher wheels have been around for more than a hundred years. Tubulars were /are designed for enhanced speed performance. For every bicycle that is a hundred years old and sports tubulars as standard you will find thousands that have never seen a tub.
I don't think any of us here could dispute what you are saying. It's all in the historic record. So what is your point? No one that I can see — least of all me — is advocating any exclusivity, either for historical reasons or contemporary preference vis a vis any contingency. I contend that if there be any extra effort to run on tubulars, I (among many others) still remain committed to remain using them. Reason: for the fun and games of what was/is part of the whole, not the exclusive character of putting rubber on the the road for C&V machines. Please re-read what I said above.

I think I own over some 20 wheel sets. Approximately half are tubular type, and the other clincher. Currently, 75% of my roadable rides are on tubs. Some other projects in the wings are to be matched with clincher rims. Swings and roundabouts: a lot of factors apply, but most of my wheel stock came to me in terms of price and serendipity. As a fan of C&V, a lot of tub rims just piled up. They were tuned and continue to serve me well — sometimes with a bit more effort than might be with clinchers. Moreover, I just I like them!

As far as I interpret things, this thread was intended to either ward off the OP from adapting to tubulars, or more positively, to reassure him/her that tubulars were not something that should incur worry, fear or reticence. Tubs require just another skill to acquire — if one wishes to practice and do it.
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Old 10-17-19, 12:18 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Lenton58

As far as I interpret things, this thread was intended to either ward off the OP from adapting to tubulars, or more positively, to reassure him/her that tubulars were not something that should incur worry, fear or reticence. Tubs require just another skill to acquire — if one wishes to practice and do it.
And the reason the OP needed help to not hate tubulars, is because there is a contingent of people who spread the hate stories - all the ones in here and more that we've all heard.

I first started to get serious around the time of the Turbo-II and K-20 clinchers also, and I was happy not to have to deal with tubulars. Then I got a set for racing wheels and learned they had their place. Now I've got a vintage bike and I really like having tubulars to ride on. I also like "bonding" with other tubular fans. If that doesn't help reduce the OP's hate... well, that's all I've got.


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Old 10-17-19, 07:37 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by mechanicmatt
I won't be the one to change anyone's opinion on tubulars, I don't understand the need for them in any way. I guess it was once a weight savings, right? But now with all lightweight tubes and clinchers, or even tubeless setups, I think there isn't an advantage. I get the nostalgia for them, but I know more people that end up "stranded" and calling for a ride because of them over the years than any other setup. Anyway, I don't mean to bash it really, but I steer clear of them as much as possible.
It's not nostalgia.

Modern tubular tires continue to ride better than clinchers of the same casing diameter and same thread count.

Tubulars can be inflated to much higher pressures than clinchers.

They can also be ridden with lower pressures than would work for clinchers (such as during a cyclocross race).

The rims are perfect box sections, with no weak spots, and as such are stronger than clinchers. Wheels are easier to build as a result.

Clinchers will pinch-flat if run below required pressures. Tubular tires seldom pinch flat.

Tubular tires can be ridden flat.

Tubular tires can be replaced easily on the roadside as long as one brings a spare tire for that purpose, along with the usual tire irons and CO2 inflation device or frame pump.

Tubulars can often be sealed up through use of Vittoria Pit-stop or similar latex aerosol compounds.

Tubulars can be filled with liquid latex in order to prevent flats. Less sealant is required, and re-application does not have to occur every six months.

Tubulars can be glued or taped to rims. The advent of double-sided tape means that tubular tires can be mounted and ridden the same day.

Tubulars do not roll off the rim if installed properly.

Tubulars allow for safe handling in the event of a flat at high speeds. Clinchers default to bare rims, which is a problem if you flat on a long downhill at speed.

Well-designed tubular tires can be repaired during the off-season.
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Old 10-18-19, 04:12 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by Lenton58
I don't think any of us here could dispute what you are saying. It's all in the historic record. So what is your point? No one that I can see — least of all me — is advocating any exclusivity, either for historical reasons or contemporary preference vis a vis any contingency. I contend that if there be any extra effort to run on tubulars, I (among many others) still remain committed to remain using them. Reason: for the fun and games of what was/is part of the whole, not the exclusive character of putting rubber on the the road for C&V machines. Please re-read what I said above.

I think I own over some 20 wheel sets. Approximately half are tubular type, and the other clincher. Currently, 75% of my roadable rides are on tubs. Some other projects in the wings are to be matched with clincher rims. Swings and roundabouts: a lot of factors apply, but most of my wheel stock came to me in terms of price and serendipity. As a fan of C&V, a lot of tub rims just piled up. They were tuned and continue to serve me well — sometimes with a bit more effort than might be with clinchers. Moreover, I just I like them!

As far as I interpret things, this thread was intended to either ward off the OP from adapting to tubulars, or more positively, to reassure him/her that tubulars were not something that should incur worry, fear or reticence. Tubs require just another skill to acquire — if one wishes to practice and do it.
"It's about what Scott was saying: it's the satisfaction of doing it the old way — of re-living a former age of cycling."

I apologise, it was Scott who you were quoting regards BITD. My point was clinchers have as much tradition as tubs - they just don't have, and never did have, the performance of a tub.
My 4 best bikes have tubulars and they all 1970s. It would be weird to change them to clinchers but I don't do many miles on them any more.
I do about 7 to 8 thousand miles a year and I just couldn't manage the cost using tubs. My final trip on tubs cost me 300 dollars as I punctured both my front and back. Clinchers would have reduced that cost to a dime.
Admittedly I no longer have to traverse a city center wherein there are all sorts of tub unfriendly debris on the road but I don't try and average 25 mph anymore so for me the low performing clincher makes more sense all round.
Having said that for my Colnago Supers and Eddie Merckx, what modern sealant do you recommend for a tub, how do you get it past the valve and will the sealant hold 120 psi?

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Old 10-18-19, 05:28 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott
...the reason the OP needed help to not hate tubulars, is because there is a contingent of people who spread the hate stories - all the ones in here and more that we've all heard. (+1, boss. Ace bike)

I like "bonding" with other tubular fans. If that doesn't help reduce the OP's hate... well, that's all I've got. (that was good.)
The tubular "experience" ('dude' seems appropriate here ) varies widely, and the tubular "inexperience" seems more prevalent.

I was a fan of the look, the ride, but not Tubasti on my khaki. Still, it wasn't like I'd glued up 476 sets to get beyond that issue.

Then I tried the tape. But I messed up. I taped a set of tubular clinchers (Tufo) to a tubular rim, with the tape. A recipe for disaster. Rode a century on them. They did not roll off. They should have. Score one for the tape.

So I taped a real tubular tire to a real tubular rim, in about 3 minutes. Then I did the other. Then I rode. Oooh. Not orgasmic, but pretty nice.

So I like them. I don't hate them. I don't actively seek them out, to the exclusion of others, but used, the wheelsets are priced well, (like a set of Zipp 50cm tubulars, one season, $600 with tires). Others, I clean, I tape, I mount. I negotiated a 2-season set of Reynolds CV Stratus down to $400 from $1000 because the tire mounting job was so horrid, I was sure I'd be ripping part of the rim off with the tire. 12 hours of work saved both the rims and tires. 12 hours of therapy at $200/hour saved. Civilization is safer.

I also like clinchers. I don't actively seek them out, to the exclusion of others, but used, the wheelsets can be priced well. (like a set of Zipp 60's, one season, $750 with tires) The demand side is much larger, so there's that extra $150 right there. A bit quicker to insert into the lineup, more workmanlike than therapy.

The older the bike, the more I like tubulars, because the petite shiny rims with a nice skinwall tubular makes me less of the actual poseur I am. A newly built set of hubs laced to nice shiny tubular rims just feels really good in your hands, and once that tire is mounted, it sort of becomes "one with the wheel." (insert 'dude' again ). As my Velocity Aeroheads continue their inevitable, well-documented decline into landfill material, I will seek tubular rims for the rebuild. I do more climbing now, and tiny little tubular rims with light, agile tubular tires just seem to make climbing easier in my head, where it all happens, anyway.

That's all. Just cool stuff. Nothing to hate. I reserve my hate for evil. Real evil, not a perceived threat to my happiness.

Last edited by RobbieTunes; 10-18-19 at 05:47 AM.
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Old 10-18-19, 06:24 AM
  #117  
steelbikeguy
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes
........I was a fan of the look, the ride, but not Tubasti on my khaki. Still, it wasn't like I'd glued up 476 sets to get beyond that issue.
Tubasti... I still wake up in the middle of the night. sweating and screaming "not the Tubasti again!!!"
well, not quite, but I have a few bad memories of Tubasti. It was a type of glue that either never fully hardened or was just very slow to harden. The stuff is somewhat infamous for being a huge mess to deal with.

The current glues sold by Conti and Vittoria have been much better behaved.

Steve in Peoria
(still amazed that a local shop has Tubasti on the shelf)
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Old 10-18-19, 07:50 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
Tubasti... I still wake up in the middle of the night. sweating and screaming "not the Tubasti again!!!"
well, not quite, but I have a few bad memories of Tubasti. It was a type of glue that either never fully hardened or was just very slow to harden. The stuff is somewhat infamous for being a huge mess to deal with.

The current glues sold by Conti and Vittoria have been much better behaved.

Steve in Peoria
(still amazed that a local shop has Tubasti on the shelf)
The new Tubasti is different than the old formula, more like Conti. I have a box of the stuff. Used it on 2 sets of wheels so far, no mess. My trick for the unavoidable small mess that gets on the rim or tires is to dab a bit of Goo Gone on a rag and with one finger wipe the tires and rim, right after setting and pumping up the tire. Makes it easy.
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Old 10-18-19, 08:13 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott
And the reason the OP needed help to not hate tubulars, is because there is a contingent of people who spread the hate stories - all the ones in here and more that we've all heard.
Correction - the OP's problem seems to be that he finds the mounting process messy and difficult on his restoration projects. He asked

Originally Posted by joluja
My last three rebuilds have required tubular replacement and the long and painful glue removal, new glue application, sore hands and mess. Does it ever get better? Are there some secrets of the trade to make things easier? I would love to hear your best secrets for tubular replacement!
So yeah, well... you get good at it and you learn to enjoy the procedure and your craftsmanship.
If you're just flipping re-selling these restorations though, I think I'd sell them with tires unglued and make sure the buyer knows that. I remember that warning being on all the advertisements in the magazines.
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Old 10-18-19, 10:13 AM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine
It's a little too easy to look at this through the lense of 2019. Take yourselves back 3 or 4 + decades. BITD there really wasn't any sort of realistic comparison between tubulars and clinchers. Not an apple and oranges thing at all. If you were interested in going fast, you rode tubulars. Simple as that. Tubulars had many advantages: lighter, stronger, less rolling resistance, easy to change on the road, safer if flatted.

There's another argument, tubulars were cheaper. When if first got seriously into cycling, 'Turbo' clinchers had just come out. This was arguably the first high performance clincher. While a clincher wheel with a turbo tire on it would be a little heavier than a basic sew up training wheel, they were at least in the same ballpark. However, I used to ride a lot of miles, and I'd burn up a turbo in two weeks. There just wasn't much tire there.
My spectacle lenses are about at 1950. It's a struggle to pull myself into the current century. Am sometimes accused of living in the nineteenth century.

Which reminds me of another comment here about tubulars being created for speed and old bikes being clincher bikes. Just not so. Clinchers were around early and had locales where they dominated. Palmer tires (sewups) were June/July 1892. The cheaper simpler singletubes did very well for a long time, they used the same rims as real tubulars. Tubulars have been the good tire for 127 years. To make a case against tubulars it is necessary to continuously assert what is just not so.

I never saw a Specialized Turbo that died in two weeks but I will believe you. They were pretty trashy tires. Stiff, coarse, slippery, with added squirm from the vaunted raised center ridge. It was not hard to cut that ridge off with a single edge razor blade and it helped. As for not much tire being there I have contemporaneous notes measuring the 700x32 Turbo as 26.3mm, the 28 label tire at 23.8mm and the 25 label tire at 21.1mm. The two larger sizes were broken in and fully stretched. The 25 was not, as I would never ride such a creature. The tires labeled 23 and 20 were hardly there. These were all used on tandems. Specialized bears much of the blame for the finally departing forty years sidetrip on ridiculously undersized tires. Blame the consumers too. I talked to Sinyard just once, at a show in 1973. He listened patiently as I pointed out some of the obvious problems with his tires. Even agreed with some of my rant. Then said quietly "I sell them as fast as I can get them."

Specialized was and is about marketing. Amongst other factors this meant they picked up the phone, received the mail, delivered product when they said they would. None of this was automatic in the bike biz in 70s and 80s. Not absolute now. They also spent freely on advertising. What a concept. What didn't work was the product. The tires were all made by National Tire/Panasonic and they were never the first quality A-line Panaracer tire. The nameplate was around for 25 or 30 years before any efforts were made to create good product.

The good tire, the first quality Panaracer tire, marketed just a few months before Specialized hit the scene, was the Schwinn LeTour. A lot like a current Pasela. Not really as good as a Pasela, there have been improvements the past half century, but a strong family resemblance. Schwinn dropped the ball and never followed through. The tire was only offered in 27" and was a chubby 30-31mm wide. That meant it already did not fit a lot of higher end bikes. Recall that we needed broken spoke clearance and that no one rode with the microscopic clearance that passes muster now. It wasn't a racing tire and did not pretend to be. You had to visit Mr. Schwinn to get them. Still absolutely the best clincher of the 70s.

The other good tires were Avocet FasGrip and IRC Roadwinner. Great when you could get them. Never quite the same from batch to batch. Wonderful and hopelessly frustrating when it wore out and there simply was not another to be had. Remember snail mail and backorders that became forgotten?

I left tubulars in the 70s because I just could not afford them. The price doubled in the course of 1973. Stores sold the good tires at $25-30 which was simply a lot of 1970s dollars. At that price they were just passing them through, not even trying to cover overhead. $40 was common and was still an unworkably low price. Stores kept selling them at a loss to keep them alive. Effectively every tubulars rider was sponsored. In constant dollars current tubulars are a bargain. If anyone wants to pay $100 and support the industry be my guest. Real prices are a true bargain. If allowance is made for the fact that they no longer flat all that much the value is like 1960s, when silks were $5.
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Old 10-18-19, 02:46 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes
A newly built set of hubs laced to nice shiny tubular rims just feels really good in your hands, and once that tire is mounted, it sort of becomes "one with the wheel." (insert 'dude' again ).
Those tires and wheels really pull the bike together......
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Old 10-19-19, 07:40 AM
  #122  
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Hi, Robbie!

I already have several sets of tubular wheels, and two (only!!) bikes to ride them on. I would not be interested in buying a full set of modern sewup wheels. One Mondonico, which I think I showed at Skip's Evanston International Vintage Bike Exhibition, has shop-made (not my basement!!) custom wheels, and the old 1980 Masi has it's original wheels. There's a 1967 PX-10 awaiting "conservation," and a set of Montlhery/Normandy wheels as part of the project. Plus a few early '50s racing wheelset, seeking a timely Italian or English frame.

The Masi has an aging installation of Vittoria Rallye 25s with Mastic1 and the Mondonico has some real nice Gommitalia Espressos (21 mm) attached with Velox Jantex tape. I also tried Tufo Extreme tape, and that is just too hard to remove.

Best tires have been the Espressos, Challenge Parigi-Roubaix, vintage Vittoria CG/CX, and the base-level Gommitalia Champion - an entry level tire with a nice, supple round feel. I've had a number of other "good ones" over the years, as well.

I choose a tire to ride based on the bike, and my fendered bikes have larger-section clinchers, fenders and lights, or due to their times they came with clinchers.

Overall I still like tubulars very much, but the clinchers I've ridden lately (vintage Continental 26 mm Super Sport, Challenge 31 mm actual Strada Bianca) are pretty good, especially the Biancas. I can see the overall question of "A" or "B" both ways.

I don't have much sympathy for down-playing tubulars based on strict hearsay. Those who have had problems due to following bad methods should consider seeking experienced users who can lend advice or if local, lend a hand. Methods exist for handling all the aspects of well-maintained tubular riding, and have been written about in many places, both recently (Lennard Zinn and other contemporary maintenance tomes) and in the past (Tom Cuthbertson's "Anybody's Bike Book" from around 1970, and in "Effective Cycling" by John Forester. Forester gets a (IMO undeserved!!) bad rap for his advocacy of Vehicular Cycling, but his pages on bike maintenance and "har riding" (I think this refers to long distance) are still good for vintage bikes. Most likely similar documents existed to support tubular users in the 1930's as well, but I'm not that much of an antiquarian.

If one doesn't like them because they can't be sold off, ok, but that doesn't mean "tubulars are horrible." Call out the problem correctly, it means "nobody wants them now." I'm sorry your investment went bad, but well, I've had a few of those, too, in stereo equipment and in a collection of tobacco user objects. It's just water under the bridge.
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Old 10-19-19, 07:55 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by Steve Whitlatch
The new Tubasti is different than the old formula, more like Conti. I have a box of the stuff. Used it on 2 sets of wheels so far, no mess. My trick for the unavoidable small mess that gets on the rim or tires is to dab a bit of Goo Gone on a rag and with one finger wipe the tires and rim, right after setting and pumping up the tire. Makes it easy.
All the glue I seem to find here in Sendai is 'Panaracer'. No problem for me as it spreads well from a brush and gets tacky in just about the right time to get the tub on. I've never had an adhesion problem. If I have to do a bit of clean up, I use some lighter fluid (benzene) on some cotten.
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Old 10-19-19, 08:08 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by Johno59
Having said that for my Colnago Supers and Eddie Merckx, what modern sealant do you recommend for a tub, how do you get it past the valve and will the sealant hold 120 psi?
Take a close look at your valve. You will see that it is made in two pieces. Two piece valves have been around at least since the 1990s and are now almost the only kind. Find the two small wrench flats. Remove the valve core with a pair of pliers, a 4 inch adjustable wrench, a dedicated valve core tool, or sometimes it can be done with your fingers. It's a big opening. You can figure how to get the sealant in.

Panaracer Smart Seal. Orange Seal. Orange Seal Endurance. It is now cold outside. Sealant will not fix your tire while riding below 50 degrees F. Bring it inside and pump it up. In warm weather you could flat and never know it. Sealant does not last forever, it will dry out. Lasts longer inside a tube, could last a year, do not plan on more than 6 months. For bikes that spend lots of time on display and not many miles ridden, wait until you flat before using sealant.

Of course sealant holds pressure. 120 psi could be why you are flatting. If you are a large rider and need that much air in a skinny tire, replace with a wider tire. Excessive pressure was always a reason for repetitive flats. Rock hard tire slamming into sharp objects punctures more readily than a tire that flows over.

Shake well before using. 1 ounce does a skinny. Two ounces does a CX tire. One and a half ounces for 28mm tires.
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Old 10-19-19, 10:56 AM
  #125  
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Been using Continental's tubular tire glue since I started riding tubs. One day I went to buy more glue from the LBS and they did not have any in stock. Searched around but only found Vittoria Mastik at another LBS. Figured I might as well try the Vittoria glue after seeing positive reviews in the forumon them.
Unfortunately, I found the Mastik a bit disappointing as it seems like it require much more of the stuff to get good coverage on the rims and proper adhesion on to the tire. I think the thinner viscosity of the Continental glue makes it easier to use/apply, so less mess. So if anyone here has been using Mastik and haven't tried Continental glue, I suggest you try it, as it could make tubular tire installation quicker and less messy for you.
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