View Poll Results: What was the main factor costing me energy?
Wider tires with the knobby edges
7
14.29%
Aero penalty due to rack & fenders
0
0%
Aero penalty due to wide bar and posture
8
16.33%
No one thing; it was a combination of those things
30
61.22%
Other
4
8.16%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll
How much effort did this cost me?
07-23-23, 04:01 PM
#27
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My group used to have a guy who'd come out and ride with us on his MTB, a couple fast centuries, too. His position was all that much worse than being on a road bike, but those tires! Of course he did it because it was harder and he was really too strong to get a decent workout riding at our measly pace, We were probably averaging about 17 on these hilly rides, he probably could average 20, just looking at him.
Which isn't the question the OP was asking, but it's the answer. Maybe you don't normally work hard enough to get any better. Take that bike out every group ride. Use your road bike for solo. What you experienced is just right. That's how it's done.
Which isn't the question the OP was asking, but it's the answer. Maybe you don't normally work hard enough to get any better. Take that bike out every group ride. Use your road bike for solo. What you experienced is just right. That's how it's done.
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07-24-23, 03:51 PM
#28
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My group used to have a guy who'd come out and ride with us on his MTB, a couple fast centuries, too. His position was all that much worse than being on a road bike, but those tires! Of course he did it because it was harder and he was really too strong to get a decent workout riding at our measly pace, We were probably averaging about 17 on these hilly rides, he probably could average 20, just looking at him.
Which isn't the question the OP was asking, but it's the answer. Maybe you don't normally work hard enough to get any better. Take that bike out every group ride. Use your road bike for solo. What you experienced is just right. That's how it's done.
Which isn't the question the OP was asking, but it's the answer. Maybe you don't normally work hard enough to get any better. Take that bike out every group ride. Use your road bike for solo. What you experienced is just right. That's how it's done.
I can feel the difference, riding into headwinds, between being up on the hoods and going aero hoods, so, yeah - aero can be big at normal human speeds. Position and ancillary bits catching the wind. Also, some of the easiest passes I make on the road are gravel bikes running 35mm+ knobby tires. There's just more resistance.
Seat tube angle on that bike is a little slacker than a road bike and even many hybrids or fitness bikes. So that puts you at a power disadvantage where for the times you might have to go hard, you are doing more work than others with their body weight more above their legs.
If you are in good shape then the Verve still might have been a very relaxing 12.6 mph average. But if you've had a rough season like I have and haven't ridden as much as you should, then you'll struggle on any bike.
If you are in good shape then the Verve still might have been a very relaxing 12.6 mph average. But if you've had a rough season like I have and haven't ridden as much as you should, then you'll struggle on any bike.
However my choice would be
No one thing; it was a combination of those things
AND
Other
Even more other things than what I wrote here. Though I'd seriously recommend getting rid of the knobbies if most of your riding is on pavement. Fit your bike out for the majority of the riding you do with it. Not the things you might do just a few times a year.
No one thing; it was a combination of those things
AND
Other
Even more other things than what I wrote here. Though I'd seriously recommend getting rid of the knobbies if most of your riding is on pavement. Fit your bike out for the majority of the riding you do with it. Not the things you might do just a few times a year.
- Trek Verve 3 = gravel bike and bike I ride with my wife to slow me down a bit. MAYBE use it on slower club rides.
- Trek Domane AL3 Disc = Road bike for club riding
- Schwinn Varsity = Local riding around town only, ride with the wife
- Aventon Level.2 = commuter, grocery-getter, ride when I don't want to get sweaty.
Thanks for your thoughts and recommendations.
**************
You guys saying: "You're too fat for this sport" or "It's the engine": it's completely off-topic; you're not helping me at all, but I hope it made you feel better about yourselves.
07-24-23, 04:50 PM
#29
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Most gravel that people ride is fairly packed gravel. So you shouldn't need the very aggressive tread that knobbies are.
Road tires are pretty much slick to a very little pattern. Gravel I'd think you'd want to be in between knobbies and slicks. Possibly loose deep gravel might need knobbies, but I don't think people ride loose deep gravel much. Maybe they do. But I haven't done enough gravel to know for sure.
07-24-23, 07:11 PM
#30
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I wouldnt call them knobbies, thinking of my BMX knobbies from the 80s.
Heres what they look like:
Heres what they look like:
My idea of "knobbies" comes from many years ago. So maybe what people today call knobbies isn't the same. However knobbies are for loose dirt, mud and maybe sand.
Most gravel that people ride is fairly packed gravel. So you shouldn't need the very aggressive tread that knobbies are.
Road tires are pretty much slick to a very little pattern. Gravel I'd think you'd want to be in between knobbies and slicks. Possibly loose deep gravel might need knobbies, but I don't think people ride loose deep gravel much. Maybe they do. But I haven't done enough gravel to know for sure.
Most gravel that people ride is fairly packed gravel. So you shouldn't need the very aggressive tread that knobbies are.
Road tires are pretty much slick to a very little pattern. Gravel I'd think you'd want to be in between knobbies and slicks. Possibly loose deep gravel might need knobbies, but I don't think people ride loose deep gravel much. Maybe they do. But I haven't done enough gravel to know for sure.
07-24-23, 07:40 PM
#31
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My thought is overall weight of the bike because of heavy tires, fenders, rack, and some aero because of the wind. Tailwind good, Headwind bad. 
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07-27-23, 10:05 AM
#32
Senior Member
I actually have a thought on this, from a week's experience.
My primary road bike is a Lynskey R270 Disc, equipped with Ultegra and carbon wheels. Comes in right around 19lbs with pedals and bottle cages, no saddlebag or phone mount.
I just moved out to the CA Bay Area for the next year, and thought it was a great opportunity to build up a commuter bike that might be fun on gravel. In comes my new Ragley Trig. Running the Lynskey's OEM wheels (and rear tire), she's otherwise equipped with 105, a 35mm Panaracer GravelKing SS up front, and crucially, a short stem, 30mm of spacers, and a very wide Race Face flat bar up front. She was 23lbs freshly built (completely clean), but I've since added a Topeak MTX on the back, as well as a Fugghetaboutit (sp) lock, so she's probably closer to 32lbs at this point.
The Lynskey is equipped with a 50x34 crank and a 12-29 cassette. The Ragley is equipped with a 50x34 crank, and running an 11-28 cassette from my parts bin. Most of the gears in the middle (12-19) would be identical between the two bikes. The Lynskey's driving a 28mm effective GP4000 in the back (25mm labeled), the Ragley's using a parts-bin Conti Ultra Sport 2 that comes in at ~32mm (28mm labeled).
I'm not a small guy either - 5'10" and 195lbs on a good day.
The biggest difference between the two bikes is weight. Sure, roadies like to say that weight matters less than aero, but between these two bikes, weight is by far the biggest factor in launching from a stop. The Lynskey can fire off the line (provided I'm clipped in), the Ragley ends up starting in a lower gear and staying there for longer. I haven't taken the Ragley on any kind of incline yet, but even just stop signs and red lights show significant effort. In your case, your commuter is 29lbs clean + rack and fenders. I'm guessing that's an extra 13-14lbs in total that you have to haul up those hills, relative to your Domane. That'll definitely slow you down. I personally find myself hopping out of the saddle to accelerate on the commuter, so even if I'm not much slower off the line, I'm using more energy to get there. Same thing with your climbs - even if you can stand and muscle your way up at near-Domane speeds on the first climb, you have that much less energy left for the next one, and so on.
Once the two bikes are up to speed, I haven't had any issue holding the Ragley at ~14mph. Accelerating beyond that becomes challenging though. Given how upright I have the Ragley set up, I don't think I can put down the same seated power as the Lynskey, and I definitely felt a reduction in drag when I moved my hands inboard from the grips (760mm wide handlebar! very different from a roadie 420mm). Given that the Ragley is used as a commuter, I haven't ridden her wearing anything besides street clothes, but given how upright I am, I can't imagine switching to a jersey and cycling shorts would do much good.
I feel the fat, slightly knobbly front tire a bit at low speeds, but above ~10mph, it stops being a noticeable distraction.
So, in short, I would say 'a combination:'
- The extra weight will make it much harder to accelerate from a stop or go up a hill, relative to everyone else riding 10-14lbs lighter machines
- Once you're up to speed at 12-14mph, the extra drag will make it difficult to push much faster
I'm still tweaking my new build, and if I were to take her out for more than groceries or dinner, I'd probably look at the following:
- Trim down the flat handlebar. The 760mm wide bar could stand to be cut by 50-80mm and still feel very open and airy compared to a road bar
- Swap the 80mm stem (another parts-bin piece) and spacers for a 100mm stem, and move 10mm of spacers to above the stem. This will allow me to stretch out a bit more for both aero and power
- Leave the rack and lock at home. There's an immediate ~10lbs improvement for accelerations and climbs
Aside from trimming down the handlebar, these other conversions would probably take 15 minutes in either direction, and the bike could flip back and forth between grocery getter and sporty hardpack steed.
My primary road bike is a Lynskey R270 Disc, equipped with Ultegra and carbon wheels. Comes in right around 19lbs with pedals and bottle cages, no saddlebag or phone mount.
I just moved out to the CA Bay Area for the next year, and thought it was a great opportunity to build up a commuter bike that might be fun on gravel. In comes my new Ragley Trig. Running the Lynskey's OEM wheels (and rear tire), she's otherwise equipped with 105, a 35mm Panaracer GravelKing SS up front, and crucially, a short stem, 30mm of spacers, and a very wide Race Face flat bar up front. She was 23lbs freshly built (completely clean), but I've since added a Topeak MTX on the back, as well as a Fugghetaboutit (sp) lock, so she's probably closer to 32lbs at this point.
The Lynskey is equipped with a 50x34 crank and a 12-29 cassette. The Ragley is equipped with a 50x34 crank, and running an 11-28 cassette from my parts bin. Most of the gears in the middle (12-19) would be identical between the two bikes. The Lynskey's driving a 28mm effective GP4000 in the back (25mm labeled), the Ragley's using a parts-bin Conti Ultra Sport 2 that comes in at ~32mm (28mm labeled).
I'm not a small guy either - 5'10" and 195lbs on a good day.
The biggest difference between the two bikes is weight. Sure, roadies like to say that weight matters less than aero, but between these two bikes, weight is by far the biggest factor in launching from a stop. The Lynskey can fire off the line (provided I'm clipped in), the Ragley ends up starting in a lower gear and staying there for longer. I haven't taken the Ragley on any kind of incline yet, but even just stop signs and red lights show significant effort. In your case, your commuter is 29lbs clean + rack and fenders. I'm guessing that's an extra 13-14lbs in total that you have to haul up those hills, relative to your Domane. That'll definitely slow you down. I personally find myself hopping out of the saddle to accelerate on the commuter, so even if I'm not much slower off the line, I'm using more energy to get there. Same thing with your climbs - even if you can stand and muscle your way up at near-Domane speeds on the first climb, you have that much less energy left for the next one, and so on.
Once the two bikes are up to speed, I haven't had any issue holding the Ragley at ~14mph. Accelerating beyond that becomes challenging though. Given how upright I have the Ragley set up, I don't think I can put down the same seated power as the Lynskey, and I definitely felt a reduction in drag when I moved my hands inboard from the grips (760mm wide handlebar! very different from a roadie 420mm). Given that the Ragley is used as a commuter, I haven't ridden her wearing anything besides street clothes, but given how upright I am, I can't imagine switching to a jersey and cycling shorts would do much good.
I feel the fat, slightly knobbly front tire a bit at low speeds, but above ~10mph, it stops being a noticeable distraction.
So, in short, I would say 'a combination:'
- The extra weight will make it much harder to accelerate from a stop or go up a hill, relative to everyone else riding 10-14lbs lighter machines
- Once you're up to speed at 12-14mph, the extra drag will make it difficult to push much faster
I'm still tweaking my new build, and if I were to take her out for more than groceries or dinner, I'd probably look at the following:
- Trim down the flat handlebar. The 760mm wide bar could stand to be cut by 50-80mm and still feel very open and airy compared to a road bar
- Swap the 80mm stem (another parts-bin piece) and spacers for a 100mm stem, and move 10mm of spacers to above the stem. This will allow me to stretch out a bit more for both aero and power
- Leave the rack and lock at home. There's an immediate ~10lbs improvement for accelerations and climbs
Aside from trimming down the handlebar, these other conversions would probably take 15 minutes in either direction, and the bike could flip back and forth between grocery getter and sporty hardpack steed.
07-27-23, 01:33 PM
#33
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I think the bars and posture are the biggest issue, but not because of the aero factors. When you change your position, you change how efficiently you put power to the pedals and the division of labor between muscle groups. You might try tweaking your cockpit position and such on your hybrid to mimic your road bike and see if theres a performance difference. If I ride my wifes mountain bike, Im a slug. The seat is too far forward, and I cant push efficiently. If I grab mine (same bike, different set up) Im way better.
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07-31-23, 08:48 AM
#34
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I've ridden a few more rides, and I think it is a combination of factors.
I have no problem keeping up with a 15 mph group on my Domane. That same effort gets me about 12 mph on the Verve.
I think I'm going to take the advice to take the Verve on the slower group rides to get more exercise than I would if I were on my road bike. and I'll make it my gravel bike. ...and my mechanical commuter. (as opposed to my more common eBike commuter)
I have no problem keeping up with a 15 mph group on my Domane. That same effort gets me about 12 mph on the Verve.
I think I'm going to take the advice to take the Verve on the slower group rides to get more exercise than I would if I were on my road bike. and I'll make it my gravel bike. ...and my mechanical commuter. (as opposed to my more common eBike commuter)
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07-31-23, 09:46 AM
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Yeah, I was going to say his fenders were actually acting as micro-fairings.
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07-31-23, 01:46 PM
#36
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At the same perceived effort on my boat anchor of a 3-speed bike with riser bar and commuter tires, I can only hold 15, maybe 16 MPH continuously. That's on flat ground. Introduce some hills, and the difference is greater. I'm sure the difference comes from a combination of weight, aero drag, and tire rolling resistance. The bike fit and geometry, seating position, and gearing are also factors.
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08-01-23, 08:43 AM
#37
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The front fender catches air right under the top and redirects it back and downwards, adding drag, and the edges catch air like a kite.
The edges of the rear fender will catch air like a kite.
Tighter fitting fenders are better, but still worse than no fenders at all.
This bike also doubles as a commuter, so I'll leave the fenders on; I was just curious.
08-01-23, 10:39 AM
#38
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Jan Heine claims that, at the very least, they don't slow you down: https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth...slow-you-down/
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