Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Why'd I bonk?

Notices
Road Cycling ďIt is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.Ē -- Ernest Hemingway

Why'd I bonk?

Old 09-23-19, 09:29 PM
  #51  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 15,609
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2258 Post(s)
Liked 1,614 Times in 927 Posts
Yes, 10 hours per week.
big john is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 09:37 PM
  #52  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 15,609
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2258 Post(s)
Liked 1,614 Times in 927 Posts
Originally Posted by sanmateoclimber View Post
Does muscle soreness diminish significantly as you up your endurance? Do you just meditate it away until you achieve muscle nirvana? Am I that much worse about stretching/rolling than the average bear? Or maybe I need to deliberately back off the climbs for a while, so that I can focus on time and distance.
.
I never roller and only stretch sometimes. When I have a hard weekend my legs get sore but not to where it bothers me just walking around. Self-massage helps, pushing toward the heart whatever muscle you are working on. And lots of water the day after, even if you weren't dehydrated.

If you can, go for an easy spin when you are tired or sore, even on a trainer.

The soreness will get better as you ride more and figure things out, especially at your age.

Oh, not time and distance, time and intensity.
big john is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 09:38 PM
  #53  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 17,235

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2841 Post(s)
Liked 752 Times in 562 Posts
Originally Posted by sanmateoclimber View Post
So, my initial reaction to this is: "ouch, my poor thighs." I'm probably on my bike for six, six and a half hrs/week, and I think muscle soreness is a big part of my limitation there. That's not to say that I'm miserably sore all the time, but my current level of activity allows me to space out my rides enough so that I'm not generally riding on sore legs. Or sitting at my desk thinking about how sore my legs are all day. Or saying "oof" every time I get off the couch.

Does muscle soreness diminish significantly as you up your endurance? Do you just meditate it away until you achieve muscle nirvana? Am I that much worse about stretching/rolling than the average bear? Or maybe I need to deliberately back off the climbs for a while, so that I can focus on time and distance.

In general, thanks so much for the feedback, and I'll definitely check out the book and HIIT. This thread has been really cool and I feel motivated to push through this to a better place with my riding. Tonight I changed it up and did a weeknight ride with the same total elevation gain as normal but 50% more distance over a longer period of time, which seems like the the right direction to be moving. Plus it was just good to confirm I can still go out for a ride without ushering in a metabolic apocalypse upon my poor, poor body.
There are three types of sore legs. The usual for my legs is yes, they're sore most of the time but work just fine anyway. The soreness goes away within the first 15-20 minutes I'm on the bike. They warm up. That's fine. The second type of soreness is sore legs during an ordinary ride. You ride and your legs are sore and the further you ride, the sorer they get. That's an effective diagnosis of insufficient dietary protein. Double it and see if they feel better in a week. The third type is not really soreness, more like excruciating pain at about 250k into a 300k 10,000' ride when all you've been doing is futzing around for 60 miles. One takes ibuprofen, meditates on the futility of life and just keeps riding. No problem. My take on your post is that leg soreness was not the issue?
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 11:33 PM
  #54  
terrymorse 
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 3,517

Bikes: Scott Addict R1

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 332 Post(s)
Liked 169 Times in 126 Posts
Originally Posted by sanmateoclimber View Post
Does muscle soreness diminish significantly as you up your endurance?
Yea, definitely. Once you have enough miles in your legs, DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) stops happening. Your muscles will fatigue during a ride, but they wonít be sore the next morning.

I started road riding again 14 weeks ago. My legs stopped being sore around week 9.
terrymorse is offline  
Old 09-24-19, 05:17 AM
  #55  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,301

Bikes: Felt AR, Longteng LTK 118 with Chinese carbon everything.

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2547 Post(s)
Liked 1,302 Times in 649 Posts
Originally Posted by sanmateoclimber View Post

Does muscle soreness diminish significantly as you up your endurance?
After a few years I stopped getting muscle soreness at all. 100 mile race, 400 miles a week, whatever.

Massive fatigue, "wooden legs", stiffness, however; that's still always there after overextending myself.

Contrast that to say, sprinting across a playground or playing basketball for a few minutes, which can leave me sore for 2-3 days!
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 09-24-19, 05:21 AM
  #56  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,301

Bikes: Felt AR, Longteng LTK 118 with Chinese carbon everything.

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2547 Post(s)
Liked 1,302 Times in 649 Posts
Originally Posted by rower2cyclist View Post
Repeat after me people:

NUTRITION BONK...ONLY AFTER THREE HOURS OF BIKE RIDING.
I've bonked in as little as thirty minutes after a huge ride the day before and inadequate nutrition. So sure, it can and does happen early on in rides, but that's due to the day/days of eating prior to the ride.

This, however, is very unlikely to be what the OP experienced after adequate fueling in the days prior, breakfast, and on the bike nutrition. He had plenty of calories and was unlikely to be expending huge kJs.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 09-24-19, 06:36 AM
  #57  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 2,304

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1052 Post(s)
Liked 797 Times in 534 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
You're just not getting the hours in. I try for 10 hours/week. 8 is OK, less not so much. Mileage-wise, 200 miles/week is strong, 150 you do OK, 100 you're just getting by until summer. That's conventional wisdom and experience. However, you seem to qualify for the time-crunched cyclist program, conveniently laid out for you in a book and training program of that name: https://www.amazon.com/Time-Crunched...dp/1937715507/
I'd like to address the hours per week thing.

That book is a good intro for folks without a lot of time. After repeating a plan from in there a few times, up to maybe a year or so, you "get the idea". Then you can apply the principles without doing the same exact prescribed workouts and plans.

My work calendar tells me this is week 39 in the year. If I take my gross hours and divide, I get 4.6 per week. Removing off weeks for my vacation and work travel earlier in the year, it goes up to maybe close to 6.

If I had to, pretty sure I'm close to 320w for 20min now. I can do right at 350w for 5min and am weekly adding power over 2min right now being in the 420ish range. All at 70kg.

I get a lot of the weekend enduro paceline clubbies wondering if I could make it on a long ride. Last one was formally 70ish but I rode alone to and from the ride to hit around 90mi. I pulled probably a lot and another racer guy and I broke for home with 4 miles to go and traded turns at whatever we could manage for a minute at a pull. We averaged about 30mph the last few miles into town. Once a month I'll do a solo metric non-stop at a hard tempo on just three bottles and a banana, only stop for turns/lights.

I can do distance/time just fine. The issue is people put out too much power on longer rides early on when they're not trained for that power zone for that duration. I could do the AOMM tomorrow solo, I'd just dial the power way way way down. My butt would hurt from saddle time and not making enough power to lighten the load, but so be it.

I tend to do a lot more intervals. It's all in how you manage the time. You can do some fantastic workouts in the sub-hour range. You can accumulate a LOT of training stress in upper SS zone on minimal time, including outdoors.

You just have to be more focused because you can't afford not to be if you have less time.

I don't think you have to have 8 hours a week and more unless you're doing back to back fondo stages OR you're an upper level racer. You have to have laser focus though.

Last week I had 505 TSS on only 6.5 hours. No farting around.
burnthesheep is offline  
Likes For burnthesheep:
Old 09-24-19, 07:38 AM
  #58  
sanmateoclimber
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
My take on your post is that leg soreness was not the issue?
Right. To clarify, my breakdown on Saturday had nothing to do with muscle soreness. I brought up soreness as a separate issue because I think DOMS is basically what's holding me back from increasing my overall weekly time and mileage. But that's definitely a mental limitation-- I'm not avoiding a fourth/fifth ride per week because I'm in too much pain, I'm just avoiding it because I tend to think of DOMS as something I need to minimize.

What you guys are saying about DOMS diminishing over time with increased fitness is actually a totally novel concept for me. A concept to which I respond "hell yeah, sign me up for THAT." Time to start learning about intervals...
sanmateoclimber is offline  
Old 09-24-19, 08:36 AM
  #59  
terrymorse 
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 3,517

Bikes: Scott Addict R1

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 332 Post(s)
Liked 169 Times in 126 Posts
Originally Posted by hubcyclist View Post
TSS has nothing to do with calories, since TSS is relative to one's FTP. Someone can do 100 tss and burn 700 calories, where 100 tss for me is about 1100, so TSS is only relative to yourself.
1100 calories per hour? That seems too high. Or have I misinterpreted the units you didnít specify?

A pro cyclist doing a hard ride reportedly burns 10-15 calories per minute.
terrymorse is offline  
Old 09-24-19, 08:55 AM
  #60  
rower2cyclist
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 195

Bikes: Giant TCR Advanced Pro 0 Disc

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked 58 Times in 31 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
I've bonked in as little as thirty minutes after a huge ride the day before and inadequate nutrition. So sure, it can and does happen early on in rides, but that's due to the day/days of eating prior to the ride.

This, however, is very unlikely to be what the OP experienced after adequate fueling in the days prior, breakfast, and on the bike nutrition. He had plenty of calories and was unlikely to be expending huge kJs.
That's exactly my point. His #1 issue is lack of fitness which it will take years to improve. No shortcuts there. My main observation was his nutrition wasn't completely dialed in. It's the low hanging fruit. We are all speculating about how much calories he had in his body and what he ate that morning was enough to compensate. We don't know how fatigued he was that week. We don't know if he pulled an all-nighter Wednesday night. We don't know if he had a sick toddler to take care of or he has a stressful day job. All of these contribute to the eventual result.

My original post was more about sharing what works (not what's adequate) if he wants to perform day after day. Some comments here on nutrition is just infuriating. Do not tell me three bags of oatmeal and a banana is good breakfast. It's not. Yes, go ahead crush a century on a bag of gummy bears and two water bottles. Is it doable? Hell yes if you really try. But trust me you won't be doing much until next Saturday. We all have done that. It's really up to him to find the right balance on and off the bike. Having a clean and healthy diet is a good start.

Having said that I found this podcast very helpful:
rower2cyclist is offline  
Old 09-24-19, 09:01 AM
  #61  
Clyde1820
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 1,347
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 231 Times in 178 Posts
Originally Posted by sanmateoclimber View Post
So, my initial reaction to this is: "ouch, my poor thighs." I'm probably on my bike for six, six and a half hrs/week, and I think muscle soreness is a big part of my limitation there.

... Does muscle soreness diminish significantly as you up your endurance?
Can, yes. Depends, but over time if your stamina and muscle endurance is increasing then, yes, you can find a given level of effort to result in reduced soreness as your fitness improves.

Of course, if old enough or with conditions such that your ability to recover just isn't sufficient given the level of work you're demanding, you're likely to fail to repair the damage you're inflicting upon the muscles (as evidenced by soreness, fatigue, etc).

Sufficient time to recover is also needed, for improvements. Again, how much depends on your age, fitness and other factors.

Myself, I simply no longer have the ability to recover from, say, two intensely hard "leg day" exercise stints weekly. Back in my early 20s, I could do this with a fair chance I'd have it all back by the start of the next week, but it was pushing things. These days, nearly 40yrs later, I need another two or three days' of recovery for such effort, and the effort is lower (along with the gains). IOW, recovery time is slower now than 30-40yrs ago. As one should expect.


Originally Posted by sanmateoclimber View Post
Do you just meditate it away until you achieve muscle nirvana? Am I that much worse about stretching/rolling than the average bear? Or maybe I need to deliberately back off the climbs for a while, so that I can focus on time and distance.
Back in my running days, we distinguished between "long, slow distance" and other types of training (which invariably were harder, interval oriented, involved hard hills, or whatever). To a man, we all found that without sufficient "long, slow base" we simply didn't have the gas to compete at higher levels of performance. But, with it, with sufficient "general mileage" under our belts, we all found we had better overall endurance, better ability to recover, better ability to withstand the occasional hard day.

Can't say that I've ever pushed that hard in cycling. But, given that it still involves cardio and hard use of the leg muscles, I can't imagine the parallels are all that off.

Originally Posted by sanmateoclimber View Post
In general, thanks so much for the feedback, and I'll definitely check out the book and HIIT. This thread has been really cool and I feel motivated to push through this to a better place with my riding. Tonight I changed it up and did a weeknight ride with the same total elevation gain as normal but 50% more distance over a longer period of time, which seems like the the right direction to be moving. Plus it was just good to confirm I can still go out for a ride without ushering in a metabolic apocalypse upon my poor, poor body.
You can do other activities to boost your cardio as well. Cycling needn't be the only one. A good rowing routine can be stellar, in that regard. As can swimming.

You certainly should consider strength and stretching exercises if you're facing hard/hill sections in your rides or runs. There's simply no substitute for sufficient strength, on sections or for times when strength is needed (above and beyond whatever stamina you might have overall).
Clyde1820 is offline  
Old 09-24-19, 09:17 AM
  #62  
eduskator
Senior Member
 
eduskator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Quťbec, Canada
Posts: 837

Bikes: TCR Adv. Pro 0 Disc

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 368 Post(s)
Liked 190 Times in 147 Posts
1) Bad day (it happens)
2) Lack of fitness / preparation - which doesn't seem to be the case given that you've indicated having done this particular ride in the past...
eduskator is offline  
Old 09-24-19, 09:32 AM
  #63  
hubcyclist
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Boston
Posts: 1,895

Bikes: 2017 Raleigh RX 1.0, 2018 Specialized Allez

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 352 Post(s)
Liked 312 Times in 169 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
1100 calories per hour? That seems too high. Or have I misinterpreted the units you didnít specify?

A pro cyclist doing a hard ride reportedly burns 10-15 calories per minute.
Well if I were doing threshold for an hour yes, but 100tss is more like something I'd do for 90mins

Sunday I did a 5x10min sweet spot session on the trainer over 90mins, 98TSS and 1093 calories
Today, I did a 3x20 sweet spot session over 2hrs, 120TSS and 1396 calories.

The calories are derived from my power meters, my threshold is 285w (4w/kg) so I've been doing intervals at 250-265.
hubcyclist is offline  
Old 09-24-19, 03:58 PM
  #64  
terrymorse 
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 3,517

Bikes: Scott Addict R1

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 332 Post(s)
Liked 169 Times in 126 Posts
Originally Posted by rower2cyclist View Post
Do not tell me three bags of oatmeal and a banana is good breakfast.
No, itís not a good pre-ride breakfast. Itís a great pre-ride breakfast. More than 600 calories of mostly carbs, plenty of fiber, and some protein.

My big event breakfast was alway oatmeal, plus sometimes scrambled eggs.
terrymorse is offline  
Likes For terrymorse:
Old 09-24-19, 07:59 PM
  #65  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,301

Bikes: Felt AR, Longteng LTK 118 with Chinese carbon everything.

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2547 Post(s)
Liked 1,302 Times in 649 Posts
Originally Posted by rower2cyclist View Post
That's exactly my point. His #1 issue is lack of fitness which it will take years to improve. No shortcuts there. My main observation was his nutrition wasn't completely dialed in. It's the low hanging fruit. We are all speculating about how much calories he had in his body and what he ate that morning was enough to compensate. We don't know how fatigued he was that week. We don't know if he pulled an all-nighter Wednesday night. We don't know if he had a sick toddler to take care of or he has a stressful day job. All of these contribute to the eventual result.

My original post was more about sharing what works (not what's adequate) if he wants to perform day after day. Some comments here on nutrition is just infuriating. Do not tell me three bags of oatmeal and a banana is good breakfast. It's not. Yes, go ahead crush a century on a bag of gummy bears and two water bottles. Is it doable? Hell yes if you really try. But trust me you won't be doing much until next Saturday. We all have done that. It's really up to him to find the right balance on and off the bike. Having a clean and healthy diet is a good start.
Having a clean/healthy diet (whatever that is for the day) is a nonsequitor and has nothing to do with the op or this thread.

You just went off on a tangent espousing your rather extreme (and strange) nutritional ideas that are irrelevant to just about everything .
rubiksoval is offline  
Likes For rubiksoval:
Old 09-24-19, 08:07 PM
  #66  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,301

Bikes: Felt AR, Longteng LTK 118 with Chinese carbon everything.

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2547 Post(s)
Liked 1,302 Times in 649 Posts
Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
I'd like to address the hours per week thing.



I don't think you have to have 8 hours a week and more unless you're doing back to back fondo stages OR you're an upper level racer. You have to have laser focus though.

Last week I had 505 TSS on only 6.5 hours. No farting around.
Just to add on some relevant information...Haven't you only been riding for like...2 years? Without ever having done significant training volume? And you really have no idea what your performance would actually be with said training volume?

That you've had relatively good results simply speaks to a better endurance disposition than most (ie, talent) It doesn't mean that your plan is actually any good. It gets you to where you want to be, but it's unlikely to get you much further. It's kind of disingenuous to say something like "you just need to be focused and you can get by with 4.5 hours a week."

Well, no. A very few select people can. A very few select people can also run 4:10 miles off of 20 mpw. The vast majority cannot, however.

Enter actual training.

That's the funny thing about stimulus and response. When that stimulus stays the same, so does the response...
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 09-24-19, 08:08 PM
  #67  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,301

Bikes: Felt AR, Longteng LTK 118 with Chinese carbon everything.

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2547 Post(s)
Liked 1,302 Times in 649 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
No, itís not a good pre-ride breakfast. Itís a great pre-ride breakfast. More than 600 calories of mostly carbs, plenty of fiber, and some protein.

My big event breakfast was alway oatmeal, plus sometimes scrambled eggs.

I, too, am a pre-ride/race oatmeal person. One of the best bang-for-the-buck meals I've found.
rubiksoval is offline  
Likes For rubiksoval:
Old 09-24-19, 08:14 PM
  #68  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,301

Bikes: Felt AR, Longteng LTK 118 with Chinese carbon everything.

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2547 Post(s)
Liked 1,302 Times in 649 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
1100 calories per hour? That seems too high. Or have I misinterpreted the units you didnít specify?

A pro cyclist doing a hard ride reportedly burns 10-15 calories per minute.
Not sure what the reportedly is.

1000 kJ an hour is only 276 watts. I did a workout that was 300 watts for three hours and finished up with 3520 kJ in three hours, 18 minutes.

Not really that big of a thing compared to actual pro riders who can do that for 6 plus hours.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 09-24-19, 11:48 PM
  #69  
terrymorse 
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 3,517

Bikes: Scott Addict R1

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 332 Post(s)
Liked 169 Times in 126 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Not sure what the reportedly is.

1000 kJ an hour is only 276 watts. I did a workout that was 300 watts for three hours and finished up with 3520 kJ in three hours, 18 minutes.

Not really that big of a thing compared to actual pro riders who can do that for 6 plus hours.
1000 kJ is 239 kcal, or 239 Calories.

238 Calories/hr is about 4 Calories per minute. Pros can burn over 3 times that rate on a hard ride.
terrymorse is offline  
Old 09-25-19, 04:40 AM
  #70  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,301

Bikes: Felt AR, Longteng LTK 118 with Chinese carbon everything.

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2547 Post(s)
Liked 1,302 Times in 649 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
1000 kJ is 239 kcal, or 239 Calories.

238 Calories/hr is about 4 Calories per minute. Pros can burn over 3 times that rate on a hard ride.
As much as I dislike resorting to a cut and paste, I'm not going to pretend I'm a scientist, so I will defer to my elementary understanding of the matter based on articles like the one below.


The bodyís efficiency of turning fuel combustion into useable work at the muscles being engaged is called an individualís Gross Metabolic Efficiency (GME). The typical GME ranges from roughly 20% to 25%. What that means is, of the 1 Calorie your body plans to burn to produce 4.184 kJ of work, the average human body is only going to be effectively using 20-25% of that Calorie to do so. The remaining 75-80% of the stored chemical energy (Calories) is lost to the external environment in the form of heat.

1 Calorie ◊ 25% = .25 → .25 ◊ 4.184 kJ = 1.045 kJ

For practical reasons, most cyclists approximate this to: 1 kJ to 1 Calorie.



https://blog.trainerroad.com/calories-and-power/
rubiksoval is offline  
Likes For rubiksoval:
Old 09-25-19, 06:16 AM
  #71  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 2,304

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1052 Post(s)
Liked 797 Times in 534 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Just to add on some relevant information...Haven't you only been riding for like...2 years? Without ever having done significant training volume? And you really have no idea what your performance would actually be with said training volume?

That you've had relatively good results simply speaks to a better endurance disposition than most (ie, talent) It doesn't mean that your plan is actually any good. It gets you to where you want to be, but it's unlikely to get you much further. It's kind of disingenuous to say something like "you just need to be focused and you can get by with 4.5 hours a week."

Well, no. A very few select people can. A very few select people can also run 4:10 miles off of 20 mpw. The vast majority cannot, however.

Enter actual training.

That's the funny thing about stimulus and response. When that stimulus stays the same, so does the response...
Never considered that.

I've just pilfered through the data, plans, and info and tried to make the best sense of it that I can and optimize what I've got (time and myself).
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 09-25-19, 06:31 AM
  #72  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,301

Bikes: Felt AR, Longteng LTK 118 with Chinese carbon everything.

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2547 Post(s)
Liked 1,302 Times in 649 Posts
Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Never considered that.

I've just pilfered through the data, plans, and info and tried to make the best sense of it that I can and optimize what I've got (time and myself).
Sure. And that you hit those numbers off of that training is pretty awesome. It's definitely not a common thing.

I wish I could get similar results like that! It'd make cycling a lot more time efficient.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 09-25-19, 07:28 AM
  #73  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 2,304

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1052 Post(s)
Liked 797 Times in 534 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Sure. And that you hit those numbers off of that training is pretty awesome. It's definitely not a common thing.

I wish I could get similar results like that! It'd make cycling a lot more time efficient.
Thanks.

I'm glad you did address this though for the original poster's topic because highlighting that it isn't common makes sure people don't end up with expectations that don't work out. It is very relevant.

I think the "Time Crunched" book does mention the genetic lottery portion, but in their own self interest (of selling a book) they seem to gloss over that pretty quick.

You can't sell a book about big gains on short time if you toss in a bunch of caveats.

If I had to give tips about the time crunched thing specific to the workouts: your results may vary........disclaimer, etc........

-Do your "not so fun" work indoors on a trainer. The 3x3's, under overs, etc. You accumulate more stress per minute than outdoors where eventually you go downhill. It sucks, but that's the situation of being short on time. And by indoor, I mean do it in ERG. Zwift with a smart trainer would be just like outdoors. It's better to put out some power to circulate your blood/oxygen after hard efforts to recover than just coast back down a hill.

-On the back end of their "hiit" workouts (or any hiit workout) where you're well above 100 % (like 120% and stuff) tack on whatever intensity and duration SS interval on the tail end you can manage physically and time wise. You've mobilized some energy stores that are now circulating your body, but aren't super great for hiit. The hiit helped bring them out. Use them on the tail end of the workout. It's mentally taxing, but I've had good luck doing this. Like..........2 sets of 3x3 then one SS interval of 8min. That's short for SS, but you'll already be feeling crap. (I credit this with a FastTalk podcast segment and the gurus on Slowtwitch)

-Double up days once in a while. Somehow I've had success with doing a fairly tough lunch hour workout, having a good nutritious lunch, then a good snack right before the weeknight worlds ride. Just seems to workout really well for training stimulus. If you look at how training stress accumulates, if you're short on time and can accumulate 100 TSS today instead of 50 today and 50 tomorrow......that's a bigger training stress.
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 09-26-19, 10:56 AM
  #74  
firebird854
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 531

Bikes: 2016 Specialized Tarmac Expert

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Liked 68 Times in 43 Posts
What a fun thread, I've always held the notion that you can do on any given day about 90% of what you could do in an entire week (given of course that that is your sole activity that week and you are well rested). So, if your weekly maximum is normally around 10-12 hours then your longest ability to ride should be around there too.

I've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence that this is true, given your situation I would assume you just had a bad day. If you've been reasonably training for 2 years, something like 70mi with 5k of climbing really shouldn't be that hard at all. The symptoms you describe sound to me like a combo of heat getting to ya and possibly dehydration.
firebird854 is offline  
Old 09-30-19, 09:31 AM
  #75  
sanmateoclimber
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by firebird854 View Post
I would assume you just had a bad day. If you've been reasonably training for 2 years, something like 70mi with 5k of climbing really shouldn't be that hard at all. The symptoms you describe sound to me like a combo of heat getting to ya and possibly dehydration.
Taking everything into consideration, I think this is right. I wasn't exposed to an enormous amount of heat/sun, but I think it snuck up on me and I let myself get a little more dehydrated than I realized. Plus I was a bit undertrained for a ride of this magnitude, and totally inexperienced with the conscientious pacing required for someone at my level to finish strong at these distances. Still, on a good day I'm pretty sure I could have managed fine and this productive conversation never would have happened. I'm chalking it up to a bad day, and it's helpful to hear all these experience folks say that these things just happen.

Progress works in funny ways. I think I easily could have come out of this fairly discouraged, taken it easy the next week with the excuse of sore legs, and backed off in general as the days get shorter and cooler. Instead, I listened to you crazy bastards and decided to take a stab at increasing my training volume and intensity. So, after one day of rest and feeling down on myself, I got back on the saddle last Monday and committed myself to finding out what a proper ten hour week feels like. I started the week with some longer, flatter rides where I focused on intensity over flats and gentler climbs. Things got dicey for my ten hour plan when a cold front came in Thursday and brought some hardcore winds with it, but I stuck it out and got some good wind conditioning in. I finished the hours off strong with a great ride yesterday, knocked off a good PR on Kings Mountain (another good climb in the area,) and just generally enjoying myself cruising through the redwoods on a beautiful day. I feel like I've had a total paradigm shift about the training volume I'm capable of and interested in pursuing, and my legs feel fine and ready for the next ten hours I'll start this afternoon. I also picked up and worked my way into the Time Crunched Cyclist book and finally bought a scale so I can start thinking a little more seriously about my weight. As we move toward the dreaded dark months, I imagine I'll be back around with a new thread asking some questions about intervals and indoor trainers soon.

So thanks, ya crazies, & happy trails.
sanmateoclimber is offline  
Likes For sanmateoclimber:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.