squirtdad

One thing that is not talked a lot about in A&S is the bike itself and it's impact on getting people riding and keeping riding.

The bike is important and I think that many people don't ride simply because they don't have a working bike or can't find an inexpensive bike that will keep working.

Many people buy bikes at target, walmart, etc because of the price, but unless people can maintain these bikes, they quickly become scrap metal due to the cheapness of the components.

Also part of the problem is that people want the style of more expensive bikes, but not the cost. So you get bikes that have suspension forks or full suspension, which even though cheap still add cost. Drop these and keep the same price and you could put some better other components on the bike. Also these bikes with bells and whistles don't work with kids who just ride and drop the bike

Also, I think we all assume that people at least have acdess reasonable, workable bikes and a LBS as an option to a big box store, but that is not always the case.

I just got back from my hometown in the middle of montana. (wwwl.chinookmontana.com) and beside bringing my dad a torker trike, I spent a lot of time trying to fix up nieces and nephews bikes. There is no LBS, the only hardware store in town did not have any brake or shifter cables. So the bikes were all walmart bikes, 21 speeds, suspension forks, etc and almost all had twist grip shifters that were dead, brakes that were just barely there, bent derailer hangers, etc. I did what I could, but it was limited. ( It is interesting to note that in looking around town the bikes that seemed to be working were old schwin single speeds and old (late 70 early 80) schwinn 10 speeds. the nicest bike I saw was a fisher commuter, owned by the retired lawyer/antique dealer)

I have also seen the same in working on neighbors bikes....the components of cheap bikes are not durable and hard to work on.

There are some excpetions for kids ....like a good quality BMX bike in the $200 - 250 range (ie Haro) is pretty close to indestructable

So what is the answer?....... it would be pretty easy to get a quality bike at a reasonsble price point by choosing minimal simple parts, say a single speed (coaster or hand brakes), or a english 3 speed style ...either 3 sped IGH or a 6/7 speed derailer with a simple friction shifter.

but would people buy them?

I think part of advocacy is to encourge such bikes that require minimal maintenance skills and to help people learn how to maintain bikes.

B. Carfree

My wife and I were just talking about this topic this morning. She agrees with you. I think the most important way to get large numbers of the car-bound on bikes would be to enforce the traffic laws with zero-tolerance and have REAL license revocations/suspensions. In our state, like many others, license suspensions mean you can't drive anywhere except work or shopping; this is rather difficult to enforce since no matter what direction a suspended driver is going he/she can claim to be on the way to some store. That said, you are entirely correct that there is a barrier to entry/continuation to cycling imposed by crappy bikes and a lack of general community knowledge on how to keep them running.

genman

Everything we buy at a department store or big box store is cheap enough that you might as well throw it away and buy a new one than spend time and money on repairing it. The same goes with bicycles. I'm not sure how you can expect to solve this problem without addressing the "everything is disposable" attitude.

That being said, I do see a lot of cities with programs such as Seattle's BikeWorks: https://www.bikeworks.org/ which has a Kids Bike Swap program. (Ironically, a lot of department store bicycles they resell actually are sold at a higher cost than the original sticker, given the cost to them to repair or tune such a bicycle.) Public schools could certainly do a lot more, say with a bicycle maintenance class, if they weren't all busily worrying about No Child Left Behind.

JohnnyCyclist

I guess it depends on where you live, but here you choose between Wal-Mart, Target, etc., and several boutique LBS'. One costs $200, the other starts at $1,200. There's no in-between unless you go to ebay, BD, Performance mail order, etc. And if you're not mechanically-inclined (or don't have the patience to learn), they're out.

I'd love to see a LBS open that offers bikes above Wal-Mart quality but below the current boutique offerings.

njkayaker

These might be OK for short, flat rides.

Indexed is going to be less frustrating to use.

I suspect that that's because the LBS can't sell $500 bikes because those customers would choose Walmart anyway.

I think those LBS's are unusual.

Many LBS's in my area sell lots of $500 bikes (ie, their bikes start at much less than $1200).

squirtdad

Short rides are where it's at! I should have added this upfront. I believe the most critical area to grow cycling is in getting people to grab their bike instead of the car for the little 2 mile and under errances that people do so often. From there commuting next. People will get the concept the bicyling part of the daily life, not a "special" activity.

but many people don't do it, partially because that bike the bought a year ago doesn't work

Indexing will only be less frustrating as long as it does not break and stays in adjustment, neither of which is a long term situation with cheap components.

meanwhile

Someone else had exactly the same thought and came up with "The Big BMX":

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...n-the-uk-25635

It's not as cheap as I'd like, but it could get cheaper with more production. The bike comes as a singlespeed with rim brakes but can be upgraded to an IGH with discs.

meanwhile

You should *really* like that Big BMX!

crhilton

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes...muters/gritty/
$419, in a shop.

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes...design/atwood/
$489, in a shop and it has gears.


Call me out of touch. But 30,000 miles later that $200 of price difference is going to be very minor. But then again, people don't actually plan to ride the bikes much. In my opinion, that's the problem.

And, if there was a solid used market for bikes like we have with cars that could help further. Imagine if you could get that $600 hybrid from 5 years ago for $200. Instead of it rotting in someone's garage.

silverwolf

Why has no-one seriously mentioned used bikes yet?

A used bike in good condition runs almost always half or less than half of the comparable new model; and high-end bikes (such as real mountain bikes) usually depreciate heavily within a few years. And best of all is finding an unused but non-dept. store bike at a garage sale, thrift shop or through a craigslist "general stuff" listing. These bikes usually go for $40 or less and only need a good tune, cleaning, and new tires/tubes and cables to get them going- if you're smart about the tires/tubes/cables you can buy needed acessories such as lights, a rack, bags, etc and still come out under the price of a typical walmart bike.

mikeybikes

The issue is not the price, nor the quality.

The issue is bikes are viewed as a toy. People just can't imagine spending more than a hundred dollars on a bike. The trick is convincing people that bikes are really good for transportation. When you treat the bicycle as a transportation device, suddenly, the $500 for a decent new one doesn't seem too bad.

dynodonn 

Not so much as a toy, but something more for occasional leisure or recreational use.

Getting the general US population out their cars is going to be a tough sell, due mainly in part from a auto designed landscape, perceived or real comfort/safety of an automobile, and people generally tend to gravitate towards the path of least resistance.

Fasteryoufool

I've had conversations about this with my sister several times. She's convinced that she doesn't like bicycles. I've told her that the reason she thinks she doesn't like bicycles is because she's never ridden a decent one. The bikes we started with as kids were department store BSO's, and that's all she's ever been on. When I was coming up on my 13th birthday, I made a deal with my parents for half the money for a decent bicycle and never looked back.

I WILL find a decent bike in a thrift store and fix it up for her. I guarantee it'll be an eye opener for her.

sudo bike

I think more prevalence of internal hubs would go a long way to helping cure people's frustration. Get a cheapie 3 speed onto some popular department store bikes, and suddenly people get a lot less frustrated. In my experience, the top two complaints from people starting to cycle on a department store bike are 1) The bike never shifts right (derailer constantly out of position) and 2) Too many flats. People don't need all the bells and whistles, just a decent bike that they don't have to futz with. The key there is good tires and an internal hub (IMO). This could be done on the high end of the department store spectrum, I think.

As far as mid-range bikes, I always felt REI carried a decent selection of bikes that fall between LBS and Big Box.

Raiden

Novara, Cannondale, and Marin? Two of the three are often carried by smaller shops, and the third is comparable.

Brands like Trek are slowly driving thier low-end bikes down in price by reducing bells and whistles. Here's their cheap, solid 7000 model: https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes...h/hybrid/7000/ . I've seen shops that price that bike for way less than MSRP, and they have similar models coming out soon that are even cheaper. If your local shop sells Trek but doesn't carry those bikes, its because of some combination of 1) the owner deciding there isn't demand for such bikes, or 2) that stocking such cheap bikes is not a profitable venture.

All LBSes can stock cheap junk- the problem is making a profit off of cheap junk. Even on a $300 bike, the shop pays half of that to the manufacturer, and it doesn't leave a lot of overhead to pay employees or keep the lights on.

squirtdad

Meanwhile....that is very inline with what I'm thinking....it has the benefit for reminding young adults of the bmx bikes they had as a kid


Used bike are great.....but have some of the same issues as BSO's in that they require some knowledge of what is good and not, and often some mechanically ability with bikes....and some places just don't have alot used bikes around

True, many see as toy or occaisonal use...... and people don't see the value in spending a bit more or getting fewer bells and whistles.

My long held and often posted belief is that it will take econmics (ie much high gas prices) to get more general use of bikes.

meanwhile

And that BMX position is the most confidence inspiring one in traffic.

I'd like to see the same design with a 3 speed IGH of the type that Sudo suggested. And, as the tech matures, an oil-less belt drive. Sealent-filled almost puncture-proof tubeless tyres would be nice; the price should fall a lot with wider production. So a bike that can just get on with things with virtually no maintenance required.

What else would be good but cheap..? Reflective paint? Perhaps built-in lights (so that they can be left on the bike without being stolen.) How about tagging the frame and major parts with RFID chips to make selling a stolen bike harder?

meanwhile

Used bikes can be a good solution for a few individuals, but they could never support a large switch to cycling - as more riders competed for the same number of used bikes prices would soar.

Seattle Forrest

I think that could be a wonderful thing, but maybe not in this context. I'm guessing most people who haven't been converted to cycling, but might be for short trips, haven't thought about bike theft.

silverwolf

The ideas for reflective paint and built in lights are excellent and necessary. At the very least a headlight is needed on all non-racing, seriously ridden bikes- there's a reason why every other kind of transport has them- making a simple, aerodynamic, and most importantly durable self-contained system would be a brilliant idea. I'm thinking something along the lines of having LEDs, but the light assemblies themselves contained within the handlebars. The system would have bar-ends with little levers on the side so you could pop them off and than pull out the battery pack.

steve0257

One thing that might help would be easy to understand maintenance manuals written for somebody that knows little about bikes but is competent with hand tools. I understand why but I was disappointed last year when I bought my bike. The owners manual didn't even explain how to use the barrel adjusters for the brakes or dérailleurs, or the brake quick release.

Raiden

I don't think that's true at all. Locks are easy to sell, especially to parents buying their kids bikes for school.

Edit:

Selling used bikes might work for a very (very) small shop in a somewhat wealthy place that has a supply of cyclists willing to sell/consign worthwhile bikes to the shop, but a bigger shop thrives on efficiency, and troubleshooting used bikes for resale just isn't as smooth and profitable as selling new boxed bikes. It works out better for both the seller and the shop if the seller just converts the bike to cash with craigslist or ebay, and brings it to the shop.

If the shop is in a very poor neighborhood that can only afford used or very cheap new bikes, they probably won't have a large supply of nice used bikes for the shop to buy from sellers, spend money (in labor and parts) fixing, and resell for much in the way of profit. Also, the shop would be liable for possessing stolen bikes, or if they accidentally buy a lemon bike (with, say, a busted frame they didn't notice, or the bike has an old/discontinued suspension fork), they have no recourse for warranty service as they do with big distributors.

MRT2

There is one place in my area that seems to sell almost as many used bikes as new bikes, and does a thriving business repairing older bikes. I just bought a used bike for my kid this way, paid a little less than half of what al new bike of comparable quality would have cost. I don't know for sure where this shop gets their supply of quality used bikes from. I presume some new bike customers just trade them in rather than sell themselves. Maybe this shop pays someone to cruise neighborhoods around the city, snapping up bikes for sale at garage sales or on craigslist.

There is an annual bike expo in the are sponsored by Trek and one of the local bike chains. One of the managers at this place told me they often get trade ins of mint condition 2 or 3 year old bikes from people who bought bikes at the expo with the best of intentions, but were sold a bike that didn't suit them by a poorly trained salesperson.

As far as troubleshooting used bikes goes, it seems to me that this has to be the exception rather than the rule, as these guys seem to be able to troubleshoot bike problems in a matter of minutes. As far as profit goes, it seems to me selling used bikes can be more profitable than selling new ones. I have bought both new bikes and used ones over the years, but honestly, the bike I had to bring in for service most during the first year of owning it was the new bike I bought, which had a spoke/wheel issue that took months to iron out (under warranty, of course).

MRT2

How about built in locks or locking mechanisms?

Commodus

I think that Trek Gritty is brilliant. Looks great and there's nothing to break. You don't need to learn about mechanics if the thing works forever.