Notices
Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling Do you enjoy centuries, double centuries, brevets, randonnees, and 24-hour time trials? Share ride reports, and exchange training, equipment, and nutrition information specific to long distance cycling. This isn't for tours, this is for endurance events cycling

Long vs short training rides for double century

Old 07-26-20, 01:16 AM
  #1  
stevage
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,503

Bikes: Specialized Tricross Sport 2009

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Long vs short training rides for double century

I'm aiming for a double century ride (~315km) in early January - a route of my own devising, with one 1000m climb and a few other undulating sections. Normally, in preparation I'd head out on lots of 100-150km rides, both for training and because I enjoy them. (My previous longest day ride was 220km, but back in 2014. I think I'm ok with the psychology and logistics parts of the ride, I'm just trying to get back into that kind of shape from a kind of moderate fitness base.).

However. My city is currently in lockdown, with a vague rule about "not exercising outside your neighborhood". So to do more than about 40km at a time basically means loops, which I find a bit dull if they're back to back.

So my question is: what is the difference in outcome between say:

1) Monday: 2x40km loops back to back (80km), Tuesday rest
2) Monday: 40km loop, Tuesday: 40km loop

That is: is it better or worse for that second loop to be straight after the first one, or when starting fresh?

I am currently also doing a bit of interval training, although since I'm a bit new to it, I'm probably not doing it "right". (Basically, riding up a hill as hard as I can, which takes around 2 minutes, ~4 times in a row.)

(I'm lucky to have quite a bit of flexibility in my schedule, and can ride during business hours. Less lucky to live in a big, locked down city with a lot of people on bike paths etc, and police waiting to question you about being too far from home...)
stevage is offline  
Old 07-26-20, 07:24 AM
  #2  
clasher
Senior Member
 
clasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Kitchener, ON
Posts: 2,592
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 42 Posts
I did some loops back in March and April when the advice was to avoid shops and cafes, it wasn't too bad. I ended up doing cloverleaf-style rides instead of the same loop out-and-back, but if you've only one good loop you can reverse it for a bit of variety. I would rather do a 80km ride for the endurance benefits of the longer ride rather than back-to-back 40km days. The 40km rides would be good to do for some rides at higher intensity though, so there's room for both.
clasher is offline  
Old 07-26-20, 09:10 AM
  #3  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 20,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 868 Times in 649 Posts
I don't think you need to be distance training just yet. Whatever keeps you fresh. Hopefully the lockdown will work and by october you'll be able to do longer rides without danger of official sanction
unterhausen is offline  
Old 07-26-20, 12:13 PM
  #4  
Drew Eckhardt 
Senior Member
 
Drew Eckhardt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mountain View, CA USA and Golden, CO USA
Posts: 6,316

Bikes: 97 Litespeed, 50-39-30x13-26 10 cogs, Campagnolo Ultrashift, retroreflective rims on SON28/PowerTap hubs

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 537 Post(s)
Liked 294 Times in 208 Posts
Originally Posted by stevage View Post
I'm aiming for a double century ride (~315km) in early January - a route of my own devising, with one 1000m climb and a few other undulating sections. Normally, in preparation I'd head out on lots of 100-150km rides, both for training and because I enjoy them. (My previous longest day ride was 220km, but back in 2014. I think I'm ok with the psychology and logistics parts of the ride, I'm just trying to get back into that kind of shape from a kind of moderate fitness base.).

However. My city is currently in lockdown, with a vague rule about "not exercising outside your neighborhood". So to do more than about 40km at a time basically means loops, which I find a bit dull if they're back to back.

So my question is: what is the difference in outcome between say:

1) Monday: 2x40km loops back to back (80km), Tuesday rest
2) Monday: 40km loop, Tuesday: 40km loop
You're more likely to ride two 40 km loops at a fast endurance pace which will provide more benefit than 80 km at a slower pace.

Stress is proportional to the square of exertion in terms of both accumulating fitness and spending it.

At 30% lower effort you can go twice as long.

I am currently also doing a bit of interval training, although since I'm a bit new to it, I'm probably not doing it "right". (Basically, riding up a hill as hard as I can, which takes around 2 minutes, ~4 times in a row.)
Stephen Seiler opined 7-10 minute intervals as hard as possible were most efficient at lifting VO2max and power at lactate threshold.

Stop when you can't exceed your anaerobic threshold because you're accumulating fatigue without doing much to improve fitness.
Drew Eckhardt is offline  
Likes For Drew Eckhardt:
Old 07-26-20, 11:23 PM
  #5  
stevage
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,503

Bikes: Specialized Tricross Sport 2009

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
You're more likely to ride two 40 km loops at a fast endurance pace which will provide more benefit than 80 km at a slower pace.
Ok, that makes sense and is a nice straightforward answer

Stephen Seiler opined 7-10 minute intervals as hard as possible were most efficient at lifting VO2max and power at lactate threshold.
I looked up one of his papers where he basically showed that almost all elite athletes converge on a split of 80% low intensity 20% high intensity in training. Which then made me realise that the needs of elite athletes and myself are pretty different. I guess I'm trying to build muscle, and efficiency, and cardio fitness all at once. I guess probably the more the better at this stage.

Stop when you can't exceed your anaerobic threshold because you're accumulating fatigue without doing much to improve fitness.[/QUOTE]
stevage is offline  
Old 07-26-20, 11:43 PM
  #6  
Drew Eckhardt 
Senior Member
 
Drew Eckhardt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mountain View, CA USA and Golden, CO USA
Posts: 6,316

Bikes: 97 Litespeed, 50-39-30x13-26 10 cogs, Campagnolo Ultrashift, retroreflective rims on SON28/PowerTap hubs

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 537 Post(s)
Liked 294 Times in 208 Posts
Originally Posted by stevage View Post
I looked up one of his papers where he basically showed that almost all elite athletes converge on a split of 80% low intensity 20% high intensity in training.
To be pedantic, it's one session in five which will be much less training time.

Which then made me realise that the needs of elite athletes and myself are pretty different.
While they have better genetics, are closer to that potential, and train a lot more they still have human physiology.

Studies have found benefits from polarized training down to four hours a week.

E.g. https://www.peakendurancesport.com/e...onal-athletes/ although it may be a bit contrived.

"For example, one study looked at cyclists who completed two blocks of 6-week endurance training periods with similar total training volumes but with differing intensity distributions(1):

Polarized, averaging 6.4 hours per week spending 80%, 0% and 20% of training time in low, moderate and high intensity zones respectively;
A much more middle of the road (threshold training) block, averaging 7.5 hours per week spending 57%, 43% and 0% of training time in low, moderate and high intensity zones respectively.
Although both training periods produced fitness gains, the polarized training regime resulted in a 5% extra gain in peak power output, a 48% extra gain in high-intensity exercise capacity and a 7% extra gain in power output at lactate threshold"
Drew Eckhardt is offline  
Old 07-26-20, 11:58 PM
  #7  
stevage
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,503

Bikes: Specialized Tricross Sport 2009

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
E.g. https://www.peakendurancesport.com/e...onal-athletes/ although it may be a bit contrived.

"For example, one study looked at cyclists who completed two blocks of 6-week endurance training periods with similar total training volumes but with differing intensity distributions(1):

Polarized, averaging 6.4 hours per week spending 80%, 0% and 20% of training time in low, moderate and high intensity zones respectively;
A much more middle of the road (threshold training) block, averaging 7.5 hours per week spending 57%, 43% and 0% of training time in low, moderate and high intensity zones respectively.
Although both training periods produced fitness gains, the polarized training regime resulted in a 5% extra gain in peak power output, a 48% extra gain in high-intensity exercise capacity and a 7% extra gain in power output at lactate threshold"
Thanks, that's a really interesting and helpful article. It also has this to say:

> In terms of training prescription then, it is likely that many recreational athletes may not need to adopt a polarized approach to maximise performance although including some zone-3 sessions is still likely to produce benefits.
stevage is offline  
Old 07-27-20, 12:07 AM
  #8  
stevage
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,503

Bikes: Specialized Tricross Sport 2009

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
I don't think you need to be distance training just yet. Whatever keeps you fresh. Hopefully the lockdown will work and by october you'll be able to do longer rides without danger of official sanction
One of the other motivations is to improve my fitness enough that I can keep up with some of my friends for joint training rides when they become possible as well. I have one friend who is still commuting to work, 18km each way 5 days a week. Eep.
stevage is offline  
Old 07-27-20, 08:56 AM
  #9  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 20,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 868 Times in 649 Posts
Getting in shape is fine, but you don't really need distance to do that. I feel like the occasional 100-200km ride is helpful, but also that's what I'm training for anyway.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 07-27-20, 11:19 AM
  #10  
GrainBrain
Senior Member
 
GrainBrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Central Io-way
Posts: 1,688

Bikes: LeMond Zurich, Giant Talon 29er

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 922 Post(s)
Liked 219 Times in 159 Posts
Drew Eckhardt great advice. I watched a GCN segment on Mark Beaumont and what he did to cycle around the world. He had the same bit of advice, shorter more intense rides. There was also a forum member who rode the dirty kanza with nothing more then short intense rides under his belt, but he also made use of a power meter and heart rate monitor.

​​​​​​
GrainBrain is offline  
Old 07-30-20, 10:27 AM
  #11  
adamrice
mosquito rancher
 
adamrice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Austin TX USA
Posts: 619

Bikes: Bob Jackson 853 Arrowhead; Felt VR30; Kinesis UK RTD

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 37 Posts
Here's a long article discussing polarized training. The author does give recommendations for how to do it, but also seems kind of negative about the idea--his criticisms seem to be that novices can get big gains from it, but can get big gains from anything, and pros can get big gains from it, but only because they put in such massive volumes of low-intensity work.
adamrice is offline  
Old 07-30-20, 01:28 PM
  #12  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 20,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 868 Times in 649 Posts
I was surprised at how much gain I got last year from a series of 100km rides. But I only did that for a few weeks before a 600km ride. That's why I was saying that could wait until deeper into late spring.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 08-15-20, 08:02 AM
  #13  
Richard Cranium
Senior Member
 
Richard Cranium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Rural Missouri - mostly central and southeastern
Posts: 2,959

Bikes: 2003 LeMond -various other junk bikes

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 17 Times in 16 Posts
(My previous longest day ride was 220km, but back in 2014. I think I'm ok with the psychology and logistics parts of the ride, I'm just trying to get back into that kind of shape from a kind of moderate fitness base.).
You don't mention anything about how long you expect to ride to complete your double-century. Without any real basis for advising you - all I can offer is that you ride enough to complete 200 miles across a three day period.
Most of long-distance riding technique is about selecting the correct starting pace and knowing how and when you may alter that pace as conditions on the ride present themselves.

Having a good base of saddle time is usually more important than calculating specific training sessions.

Good luck.
Richard Cranium is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.