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Ready to give-up on tubeless road tires

Old 11-03-20, 10:39 PM
  #26  
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If you use Stan's at anything above MTB pressures, you're gonna have a bad time. All of my wheels have had OS or TruckerCo Cream in 'em for 5+ years and look brand new on the inside.
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Old 11-03-20, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by XXLHardrock View Post
How about using sealant in the tubes? Does that work?
What I have heard is that it works best to put the sealant in after you notice a leak. Not sure how big of a leak it can handle.
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Old 11-07-20, 11:02 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by XXLHardrock View Post
How about using sealant in the tubes? Does that work?

I need to ride with my psi higher than 60 so I won’t be experimenting with tubeless on the road bike.
I had a friend that was using special sealant for inner tubes on his road bike (pre-tubeless tires). He said it was messy, and abandoned it after awhile. This was about 15-20 yrs ago.
I, myself have no experience with sealant in inner tubes.
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Old 11-07-20, 01:17 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by XXLHardrock View Post
How about using sealant in the tubes? Does that work?

I need to ride with my psi higher than 60 so I won’t be experimenting with tubeless on the road bike.
I did a week of mountain biking on the Maah Daah Hey trail in North Dakota about five years ago, reports were that it was hard to avoid thorns, sealant was suggested to avoid punctures. I bought one thorn resistant tube (very thick rubber) and put Slime sealant (a brand of sealant) into the tube for my rear wheel, used the same sealant in a regular tube on the front. The thorn resistant tube is very thin where the valve stem is, the rest of the tube is much thicker. And that thin to thick transition point in the tube failed, and it was so close to the valve stem it could not be patched. Thus, that thorn resistant tube was a total failure.

That said, it was my only flat for a week in an area with a lot of thorns. I have no clue if the sealant in the front prevented any flats, it could have.



That is my only experience with sealant.

I used Slime sealant instead of other brands for reasons that I do not recall, that was five years ago. Slime makes sealant for tires and for tubes, I am not sure what the difference is, but if you want sealant for tubes, be careful you buy that instead of tire sealant.

If I recall correctly, Slime brand sealant is water soluble, I used tubes with removable Presta valve cores, added the sealant through the valve stem and being water soluble, it was easy to clean out the valve stem with something before re-installing the valve core. I do not recall if I used a Q tip or something else. It was five years ago, so I do not recall all the details, I have only put sealant into tubes once.

Slime also sells tubes that have sealant already added. I probably should have just gone that route instead of getting the thorn resistant tube which failed.

If I ever plan a bike tour in the southwest where thorns are common, I will probably use sealant in the tubes again. But no more thorn resistant tubes for me.

Regarding pressure limitations, I am not aware of any, perhaps the limits are specific to certain brands of sealant? I am not a mountain biker, and the friend of mine that advised me to use sealant did not mention pressure as an issue, but I was using 57mm wide tires at lower pressures.

I bought the sealant at REI, they also sell tubes with sealant, they would probably be good people to talk to for more info.
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Old 11-09-20, 08:52 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by XXLHardrock View Post

I need to ride with my psi higher than 60 so I won’t be experimenting with tubeless on the road bike.
I run 80-82 rear and 75-78 front using orange seal no problem.
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Old 11-09-20, 08:57 AM
  #31  
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Could a 250-300 lb Clyde run those pressures safely?
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Old 11-09-20, 09:50 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post
Could a 250-300 lb Clyde run those pressures safely?
with what size tires? What road surfaces?
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Old 11-10-20, 10:20 AM
  #33  
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I've been tubeless for 16 years. First MTB, then Hutchinson's road tubeless tires with regular road rims (Mavic Open Pros), now tubeless-approved rims and tires.

For my regularly ridden bikes, brevets and not, I wouldn't go back to tubes.

The sealant does dry out and needs to be maintained, so the infrequently ridden bikes (couple times a year) still have tubes ... or will go back to tubes the next time I ride them.

But I recently found a box of old tubes all with snake bite punctures and was reminded of the days running too low of pressure on Conti 4000S tires (28's measuring 32) for the plushness. I've not had a snake bite since, and I run much lower pressures (50psi on Hutchinson Sector 32's, with a combined bike+rider of 200lbs'ish) than I ever did back then.
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Old 11-10-20, 11:08 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by anotherbrian View Post
I've been tubeless for 16 years. First MTB, then Hutchinson's road tubeless tires with regular road rims (Mavic Open Pros), now tubeless-approved rims and tires.

For my regularly ridden bikes, brevets and not, I wouldn't go back to tubes.

The sealant does dry out and needs to be maintained, so the infrequently ridden bikes (couple times a year) still have tubes ... or will go back to tubes the next time I ride them.

But I recently found a box of old tubes all with snake bite punctures and was reminded of the days running too low of pressure on Conti 4000S tires (28's measuring 32) for the plushness. I've not had a snake bite since, and I run much lower pressures (50psi on Hutchinson Sector 32's, with a combined bike+rider of 200lbs'ish) than I ever did back then.
My biggest complaint using tubeless road tires (shimano tubeless wheels with Hutchinson fusion 4/5) is that once you remove the tire for cleaning, tire and rim, once per year it is almost impossible to re-seal the tire even using a compressor. Many times, adding sealant solves the problem, but sometimes it doesn't, and I have install a new tire even though the original it not that worn.
I use inner tubes for training, and tubeless for races and brevets so my tubeless tires do not accumulate so many klm.
Since now I race only a few times a year, and limit my brevet to 200/300klm weather permitting I am going back to inner tubes.
I also had issues with rim corrosion. I've replaced 3 Shimano rims due to corrosion using Stan's sealant.
Recently, there was a post that Stan's and Shimano rims is a no-no. I never pick this up.
After contacting both suppliers one blames the other while the customer bears the expense.
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Old 11-10-20, 11:14 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by yannisg View Post
My biggest complaint using tubeless road tires (shimano tubeless wheels with Hutchinson fusion 4/5) is that once you remove the tire for cleaning, tire and rim, once per year it is almost impossible to re-seal the tire even using a compressor. Many times, adding sealant solves the problem, but sometimes it doesn't, and I have install a new tire even though the original it not that worn.
I use inner tubes for training, and tubeless for races and brevets so my tubeless tires do not accumulate so many klm.
Since now I race only a few times a year, and limit my brevet to 200/300klm weather permitting I am going back to inner tubes.
I also had issues with rim corrosion. I've replaced 3 Shimano rims due to corrosion using Stan's sealant.
Recently, there was a post that Stan's and Shimano rims is a no-no. I never pick this up.
After contacting both suppliers one blames the other while the customer bears the expense.
I would stop using STANS and change to Orange Seal...then I would re-tape your rims ensuring the tape is 4mm wider than internal diameter.....doing a double wrap. There is no reason your tires to be near impossible to seal. If you have done all of that I would re-look your tire choices because something is way out of spec.
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Old 11-10-20, 01:57 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by jadocs View Post
I would stop using STANS and change to Orange Seal...then I would re-tape your rims ensuring the tape is 4mm wider than internal diameter.....doing a double wrap. There is no reason your tires to be near impossible to seal. If you have done all of that I would re-look your tire choices because something is way out of spec.
If I will continue using road tubeless I would apply rim tape.
Regarding the lip sealing, I have found that the older the tire gets or the more times you have removed it the more difficult it is to seal. I have been using strictly Hutchinson road tires, and only recently purchased Continental tubeless that I have not yet installed.
I have found the same applies to mtn bike tires, but to a lesser degree because of the larger volume.
I have tried Mariposa latex sealant on my mtn bike tires which did not show any corrosion on Shimano rims, and was easier to clean. However, I think that Stan's has a better sealing quality.
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Old 11-10-20, 02:26 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by yannisg View Post
If I will continue using road tubeless I would apply rim tape.
Regarding the lip sealing, I have found that the older the tire gets or the more times you have removed it the more difficult it is to seal. I have been using strictly Hutchinson road tires, and only recently purchased Continental tubeless that I have not yet installed.
I have found the same applies to mtn bike tires, but to a lesser degree because of the larger volume.
I have tried Mariposa latex sealant on my mtn bike tires which did not show any corrosion on Shimano rims, and was easier to clean. However, I think that Stan's has a better sealing quality.
I've never had any corrosion issues with Stan's Arch, Mavic Open Pros (silver), DTSwiss RR (forget number), or HED Belgium rims (or a couple different CF rims) when using Stan's sealant -- all of those rims were anodized.

From a performance perspective, I've found Orange Sealant (both the Endurance formulation and the regular) works much better in road tires than the Stan's did. I finished the quart of Stan's in my MTB wheels last year and am now on Orange sealant exclusively.

And I've never had issues with road tires (primarily Hutchinson Sector 32s (and before those Intensives and Atoms), though also Conti 5000's, Schwalbe Pro Ones, and Rene Herse/Compass ultralights) re-seating on a rim despite having dried/crusted sealant ... if I take the tire completely off the rim I'll pull what dried bits off I can, especially on the outside bead, but it's a haphazard effort.
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Old 11-11-20, 01:21 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by anotherbrian View Post
I've never had any corrosion issues with Stan's Arch, Mavic Open Pros (silver), DTSwiss RR (forget number), or HED Belgium rims (or a couple different CF rims) when using Stan's sealant -- all of those rims were anodized.

From a performance perspective, I've found Orange Sealant (both the Endurance formulation and the regular) works much better in road tires than the Stan's did. I finished the quart of Stan's in my MTB wheels last year and am now on Orange sealant exclusively.

And I've never had issues with road tires (primarily Hutchinson Sector 32s (and before those Intensives and Atoms), though also Conti 5000's, Schwalbe Pro Ones, and Rene Herse/Compass ultralights) re-seating on a rim despite having dried/crusted sealant ... if I take the tire completely off the rim I'll pull what dried bits off I can, especially on the outside bead, but it's a haphazard effort.
Supposedly, the newer Shimano rims are anodized, but I still get some corrosion specially starting at the valve hole. I suspect they anodize the rim, and then drill the valve hole exposing the edge of the hole.
I clean the outside lip of the tire quite well with Scotts-brite, but I still have difficulty sealing them. I suppose the larger with tires are easier to seal because of the increased volume.
I haven't used Orange sealant. I've used Bongrader in road tires, but it seemed to dry quickly into lumps, and CaffeLatex in tubeless mtn tires.
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Old 11-11-20, 01:24 PM
  #39  
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I cannot get my front mtn bike tire to stay inflated. At 2.8", I woud like to avoid tubes, but this is an unending headache. The leak is so slow I can't detect it, but the tire is flat the next day, even with more sealant added. (I only took it apart to replace a broken spoke nipple, so the only thing I can think of is the new rim tape is at fault.)
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Old 11-11-20, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
I cannot get my front mtn bike tire to stay inflated. At 2.8", I woud like to avoid tubes, but this is an unending headache. The leak is so slow I can't detect it, but the tire is flat the next day, even with more sealant added. (I only took it apart to replace a broken spoke nipple, so the only thing I can think of is the new rim tape is at fault.)
Once you add more sealant, how do you slosh it around in the wheel? Going way back to ~2005 I followed a Stan's video of holding the wheel between two hands horizontally and tipping back and forth, rotate wheel a couple degrees, and repeat, then flip the wheel over and repeat. Since then I've seen Compass/Rene Herse lifting the wheel from below the hips to overhead and rotating, but I've stuck with Stan's method.

I'm not sure that just riding does as good of a job.

But a bad taping job or the valve stem not being fully seated will do it. I'd start with a wide plastic container that you can submerge the wheel halfway up the rim (I used a a round concave plastic kids snow disc/sled), with some soap in the water, and slowly+patiently rotate the wheel and look for the faintest hint of a bubble. If air is leaking past the rim tape, then it'll be going into the rim cavity and out spoke holes and you'll probably never see it without immersing the whole wheel.

And as for valve stems and removing on the road and need for pliers that was mentioned early on, I've never been unable to press down on the rubber portion in the rim channel enough to relieve pressure from the nut that holds it on and unthread by hand. The valve doesn't need to be tightened with pliers in the first place, so shouldn't need pliers to remove it later.
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Old 11-11-20, 06:00 PM
  #41  
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yannisg : I went tubeless for the first time this July when I purchased my Surly Ogre. Initially I was not impressed at all. I suffered several flats within the fitst 4-6 weeks of use and had to replace my rear tire 2x. Right out of the gate the first flat I experienced was so bad the tire could not be plugged. There was goo spraying all over the place while I waited in vain for the sealant to do it's job (which never happened). I had to remove the tire, clean up the goop, remove the tubeless valve and install a tube to get home. The tire immediately went into the trash because it could not be repaired. What a PITA! My 2nd flat wasn't much better. Once again the sealant was spraying all over me and the bike, but a large plug was sufficient to fix the puncture. No tube required, but it was a mess. I was really upset and starting to wonder why people liked tubeless tires so much. The third puncture was small enough so that the sealant at least had a fighting chance of doing it's job. The sealant initially worked to seal the hole... temporarily. A few minutes after I thought the punture was sealed it started to leak. It went back and forth between sealing itself and then opening up again several times, so I finally pulled over and threw a plug into it. The plug sealed it, but I was pissed and seriously considered going back to tubes.

Before ripping the tires off and going back to tubes I waited until I had a cooler head to think things through. I concluded that 2 out of the 3 punctures likely would have happened even with tubed tires. Assuming that's true, how would my situation have been better or worse with tubes vs tubeless? In both cases I would have had to fully remove the tire, change the tube, put the tire back on and then pump it up. My first puncture required the same amount of work as a tubed tire (with some added mess from the sealant). However, the 2nd and 3rd punctures, while really inconvenient, required nothing more than a plug and some CO2 to reinflate. The punctures were repaired quickly and I was back on the road in much less time than if I had a tubed tire.

I ultimately changed to a totally different tire and haven't had any issues since. Yes, I've had two more punctures since swiching tires, but I didn't even know it until I got home. The selant did it's job and both punctures were easily repaired with plugs.

At the end of the day I've concluded that tubeless isn't the "be-all, end-all" solution I thought it was... but roadside punctures are definitely easier to repair than tubed tires. I've also learned that all tubeless tires are not created equal. Some tires puncture easier than others, some will seal easier than others. I'm glad I stuck with it and am now quite happy with my tubeless setup.

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Old 11-12-20, 11:02 AM
  #42  
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Thank you for convincing me not to try tubeless. I can believe the ride is better, but the time required to maintain them isn't worth it for me. I rode tubular tires many years ago and spent a lot of time on them. It wasn't fun.
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Old 11-13-20, 10:15 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by anotherbrian View Post
Once you add more sealant, how do you slosh it around in the wheel? Going way back to ~2005 I followed a Stan's video of holding the wheel between two hands horizontally and tipping back and forth, rotate wheel a couple degrees, and repeat, then flip the wheel over and repeat. Since then I've seen Compass/Rene Herse lifting the wheel from below the hips to overhead and rotating, but I've stuck with Stan's method.
Did both.

I'm not sure that just riding does as good of a job.
​​​​​​​

Did that, too.

​​​​​​​But a bad taping job or the valve stem not being fully seated will do it.
​​​​​

I think that is the most likely problem, since I know how badly the clown that applied the tape did it, and I only went around once.


​​​​​​​ I'd start with a wide plastic container that you can submerge the wheel halfway up the rim (I used a a round concave plastic kids snow disc/sled), with some soap in the water, and slowly+patiently rotate the wheel and look for the faintest hint of a bubble. If air is leaking past the rim tape, then it'll be going into the rim cavity and out spoke holes and you'll probably never see it without immersing the whole wheel.

And as for valve stems and removing on the road and need for pliers that was mentioned early on, I've never been unable to press down on the rubber portion in the rim channel enough to relieve pressure from the nut that holds it on and unthread by hand. The valve doesn't need to be tightened with pliers in the first place, so shouldn't need pliers to remove it later.
​​​​​​​I think I need to re-tape it.
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Old 11-13-20, 10:24 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
I cannot get my front mtn bike tire to stay inflated. At 2.8", I woud like to avoid tubes, but this is an unending headache. The leak is so slow I can't detect it, but the tire is flat the next day, even with more sealant added. (I only took it apart to replace a broken spoke nipple, so the only thing I can think of is the new rim tape is at fault.)
Re-tape will absolutely fix that. Do not be intimidated by the procedure. Once you start you will realize how easy it is. Just get some good tape (ie DT Swiss), 4mm wider than your ID and double wrap as I have outlined above. Adding sealant to a wheel with a bad tape job is like sticking your finger in a hole to prevent the dam from leaking.
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Old 11-13-20, 11:21 AM
  #45  
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I'm going to tape my road bike wheels today. Not sure when I'll try tubeless, my current tires aren't tubeless ready. But the rims are.
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Old 11-13-20, 01:57 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by XXLHardrock View Post
How about using sealant in the tubes? Does that work?

I need to ride with my psi higher than 60 so I won’t be experimenting with tubeless on the road bike.
My orange sealant holds up to 100-120 psi (I pump the tires hard to ride the rollers), abd doesn't blink at the 60-80 psi I normally run in my 26-28 mm tires,
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Old 11-13-20, 02:11 PM
  #47  
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But .... in the words of my dentist, "Is it safe?"
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Old 11-13-20, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jadocs View Post
Re-tape will absolutely fix that. Do not be intimidated by the procedure. Once you start you will realize how easy it is. Just get some good tape (ie DT Swiss), 4mm wider than your ID and double wrap as I have outlined above. Adding sealant to a wheel with a bad tape job is like sticking your finger in a hole to prevent the dam from leaking.
I just pulled it apart, and it was very unambiguously the rim tape. If I didn't screw it up to begin with, I most certainly did mounting the tire. It was completely pulled to the side in spots. I am surprised the tire held enough air for a quick ride or two.

I used Stan's tape, and it is too narrow, and I only went around once.

I washed all the sealant off the rim, and I am letting it dry for a day or two.

The orange seal made a uniform coating of latex on the tire. I'm cleaning off the edges to help the tire seat itself again, when the time comes.

I accept that this was 100% user error (i.e., my fault), but it sure is a PITA.
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Old 11-15-20, 01:10 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
I just pulled it apart, and it was very unambiguously the rim tape. If I didn't screw it up to begin with, I most certainly did mounting the tire. It was completely pulled to the side in spots. I am surprised the tire held enough air for a quick ride or two.

I used Stan's tape, and it is too narrow, and I only went around once.

I washed all the sealant off the rim, and I am letting it dry for a day or two.

The orange seal made a uniform coating of latex on the tire. I'm cleaning off the edges to help the tire seat itself again, when the time comes.

I accept that this was 100% user error (i.e., my fault), but it sure is a PITA.
For road tires I'd always heard two wraps ... it has been so long since I wrapped my MTB wheels, I don't remember if I was doing two wraps then or not.

Going back to Stan's 15 year old guidance, I've always scuffed new rims with a Scotch-Brite pad (green), then clean it with brake cleaner and a rag. After wrapping I put a tube in the tire and let sit for the day (or at least an hour+) ... it doesn't give the instant gratification of getting to ride, however it does press the tape in to the nooks and crannies of the rim that doesn't happen when you apply the tape with tension by hand (even when you are chasing it by pressing down with your finger -- and the more tape that sticks to the rim, the less likely it'll leak).

I've still had the top layer of rim tape come up on the edge later (the bead drags across it when unmounting), but I think the bottom tape layer adhering to the rim keeps is otherwise enough (and sealant can help).
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Old 11-15-20, 01:36 PM
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wgscott
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Thanks. I will give this a try. The new tape is already moving around.

Sorry this is OT, but it is the main thing preventing me from doing road tubeless. If it is such a struggle with mountain tires (even if it is all user error and my fault), I can't see doing it unless I ride in an area with lots of goatheads.
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