TimothyH

The fact that things break does not mean that every particular instance of that thing will break. The real question is the likelihood of failure.

I don't think it is a given either.

As an example, Di2 shifters do away with the internal shift mechanism altogether and replaceit with just two electrical switches. It is conceivable that the electronic system with few or no moving parts is more reliable than the mechanical shift system which is prone gumming up, wearing out, jamming, etc.

And which is easier to fix when it does break? Replacing a switch might be easier than repairing a mechanical shift mechanism.

I don't know the answers to these questions but it is entirely conceivable that an electronic system is more reliable than a mechanical system.

It would be nice to know MTBF or failures per mile for these items. I'm sure Shimano has data but I'm also sure they would never release it to the public.


-Tim-

Cyclist0108

My minivan (Toyota Emasculator) is 15 years old...

mstateglfr 

But microshift doesnt just open up an STI shifter and copy it. The shifting is different. There are 2 paddles and the brake lever compared to Shimano where the brake lever also acts as a shift.
The higher end micro**** shifters have a tab still, campy style. And its accessible from the drops unlike old school sora. Again, different style from STI and not just a straight copy.

jamesdak 

I cry baloney on this in my experience too. I read reviews about how you couldn't depend on the 11 speed Athena Groupset yet I'm running it on two bikes with no problems. The set on the Circuit has only been touched once to adjust the brakes for new rims. And the set on the XL Super has seen one tune up (working great but had a loose headset so I let them go over the bike) since build up during the winter of 2015. Favorite bikes and even without checking my logs I'm sure the XL Super has at least around 4000 miles on it with at least half that many on the circuit. In my book Athena 11-Speed has been flawless.

Barabaika

So, a guy went touring through Europe. His front Di2 derailleur stopped working. Mechanics can't help him. He wants to go home.
Next time install simple bar-ends. If they fail to index, you can switch them to the friction mode.
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-me...stic-test.html

Steve B.

We could easily go back in time 25 years and read about all the folks whose STI shifters failed, on a tour, whatever. It finally took some wisdom from Sheldon Brown to convince folks that STI shifting and particularly the shifters, were every bit as reliable as bar-cons.

Di2 is the same way, yes you will see posts from folks having problems, but don't tell me the LBS's ain't doing business fixing mechanical systems as well. Stuff breaks. Electronic is just different and needs different repairs.

TimothyH

Back to my original topic, has anyone build a Di2 system and can they tell how much it cost them?

Parts list? Prices?


-Tim-

Marcus_Ti

Bigfoot's Di2 bill came to $880ish plus brifters (including jewelry, cabling, charger, and battery mount)....which gets a bit complicated as brifters and brakes were sold as a set.

MikeOK

I can't answer you but my whole bike just cost $2,000. The one bad thing about it is all the components you need and their compatibility. Like you can't do synchronized shifting without the newest battery, and you can't use your iPhone or iPad with the etube app without the Bluetooth unit.

SHBR

Shimano and Sram are using the time tested Microsoft strategy of vendor lock-in.

I'd be curious to know what will happen 10 years later.

Hopefully there are better options, and more interchangeability.

Here is a complete breakdown on what it takes to convert an older bike to Di2.

Looks pretty kludgy to me, replacement parts are quite limited, and there are no aftermarket parts available at this time.

Falchoon

10 speed 6770 shifters work fine with 11spd 6870/9070/9150 Di2 derailleurs.

Stucky

My D/A and Ultegra stuff from 20 years ago is still functioning flawlessly.....no batteries to replace; no circuit boards to get funky with dirt and moisture and die (Only to find out that they no longer make the part, or charge so much for it if they do that it doesn't pay to buy it); No servos to wear out...no software to upgrade. (Why would I need all of that to accomplish the simple task of moving a chain a fraction of an inch, which a lever, spring and cable can do just fine?)

The day I go electronic, will be the day after I hire someone to pedal my bike for me!

I wonder how long this fad of electronic shifting is going to last?

gregf83 

If you were riding those bikes a decent amount for 20 yrs you'd have changed the cables 10-20 times. It's much easier to charge a battery than replace cables.

Shimano, SRAM and Campy gear all wears out eventually if it's used. It's not clear the longevity of mechanical is any better than electronic.

manapua_man

I don't really see the point in obsessing so much over how long the components will last. I've gone through plenty of both MTB and road mech parts simply because I ride almost every day and often in less than ideal conditions. Hell I was going through at least 2-3 sets of rims a year until most of my bikes switched over to disc brakes.


And I could see electronic shifting being here to stay on less expensive bikes if someone were to go open source on the software end. It'd eliminate a ton of problems for people who try to run MTB groups on road/touring bikes. Heck I'd probably run it with multiple buttons all over a set of trekking bars on the folding bike that I use for touring. Even without that, the high end racing crowd and all the guys who like emulating them are probably not going to go back any time soon.

Stucky

Granted, I only ride about 3K miles a year- so cables tend to last me a good 7 years or more.... and no sweat to change 'em, anyway.

Thing is, there's still plenty of functional 10, 20, 30, even 40 year-old mechanical stuff out there. The electronic stuff, even if never used, will not last. Between the planned obsolescence; the fact that batteries go bad over time, even if never used (And if the stuff is used, wear and moisture will take it's toll much more quickly than it does on mechanical stuff)- and all for what? Is moving that cable manually so difficult?

I'm sorry, but to me, electronic shifting on a bicycle seems to be something that ought to have originated with Rube Goldberg.

Where's that first generation Di2 now? The stuff that people really did pay well over $2K for.

Marcus_Ti

Thing is most people don't buy bikes for 30 or 20 or 10 or heck even 5 years anymore....Bikes have become consumables sadly, at least that is how it seems (although maybe that is the nature of the internet and marketing). After a year or two "upgrade-ities" for the latest shiney paint job happens. You see it with all the chatter around Canyon coming to the USA....lots and lots of excited people on the internet lining up to spend money when they have a basically-brand new bike as such things go.

First gen D/A Di2 used a 5-pin pin-out that was deprecated before Ultegra Di2 standardized thereafter on 1-pin. Further, given D/A Di2 was just that, not a whole lot of it sold. Lots of folks were waiting for the Ultegra trickle-down, as is the nature of the uber-group mechanical. With the standard of the 1-pin interface the wiring harness can mostly be kept and the bike upgraded to newer stuff 10s to 11s.


With thru-axles and discs, odds are lots of legacy equipment is going to be made just that anyway.

My mechie 11s Chorus rim-brake roadie still puts a smile on face 9 years later...my Di2 rig puts an impish grin on my face too.

Stucky

I like durability- especially when paying good money for something. The idea of buying something and then tossing it out a few years down the road is anathema to me. Sadly, that seems to be the way most things are built these days- even big-ticket items like cars- and what with people being used to flavor-of-the-month electronics becoming obsolete in a year, such a mentality is becoming the norm.

I just came in for a break. I was outside working on my tractors, with tools that were passed down to me that are from the 1950's and 60's. They weren't even high-end stuff when they were new, but they're superior to just about anything you can buy today.

Disposable bikes are fine for Walmart, but isn't quality stuff not only supposed to perform better, but also last longer?

It might be different if electronic shifting offered some huge advantage over mechanical- but in reality, really, I just see it as a toy or a conversation piece- something for those who like to marvel over technology and gadgets- but as far as riding a bike, I fail to see the appeal.

Doesn't last longer.
Doesn't do anything you can't do with mechanical.
Isn't cheaper.

The only selling point I see, is that it's a solution for people who don't care to learn how to adjust dérailleurs.

gregf83 

I've got 15 yr old SRM powermeters that still work fine. I've got 25+ yr old cars with electronics still intact and perfectly functional. I've replaced SRAM and Campy shifters due to wear. No way do they last 20 years with regular use.

Fair disclosure: I don't have any electronic groups but certainly understand the benefits and will likely include on my next bike. Can't really see any downsides.

manapua_man

I have a few buddies that I ride with every so often who are still using the 1st gen Di2. None of them have had any complaints that I can remember, and they ride on pavement a lot more than I do.


We don't know this, and you've already said in an earlier post that you don't ride nearly enough to actually tell for yourself. At ~3k miles a year (practically nothing) you could run entry level stuff and be fine for a very long time.

MikeOK

You do have to adjust Di2. Once.

Marcus_Ti

And you don't have to worry about grimed up housing going into the RD ever again. You also get the perks of multi-shifting that Shimano refuses to really implement on the mech groups.

Stucky

Sadly, that does seem to be the paradigm that a lot of people fall for- especially newbs....until they get to the point where they realize that they're just bicycles, and the equipment and gadgets really don't make that much difference. But I think such a modus operandi is limited to certain types of people- whereas I'd bet the majority of cyclists- especially those buying multi-thousand dollar bikes, are buying for the long-haul.

I know for myself, i wouldn't find things half as interesting if it weren't for classic & vintage bikes; and jusging by the popularity of the C&V boards here, I'd say I'm not alone. Sad thing is, with the current trends in manufacturing, the next generation is not going to have C&V bikes...unless they want to ride patched-up CF frames withy mangled BB30 shells and retro-fitted mechanical groupsets....but then what would be the point?

11-speed Chorus? Egads! That's so 2016! Now we know how the other half live!

Marcus_Ti

Well 2015 Chorus actually, before that I built it with Centaur 10s '07. It'll probably get wireless Shimano next, Campag consumables are too damn expensive.

I still have my first and only CF frame hanging...A ridden-hard BMW-blue pre-corporate-sellout Kestrel Talon frameset from 2002. If I could sell it for any money worth the effort I might. Those Kestrels are probably going to be the only C&V carbon bikes ever, being remembered for being some of the first CF frames to hit it big-and they were built well enough to not have QC issues early/mid/long term....all the rest are flash in the pan one offs that were always "inferior" to the new paint and tube profiles that came the next year, or were noodles that liked to come apart.

Was after that bike I went to the Ti-side....but always BSA bottom brackets, funny thing I bespoked my Seven right after BB30 was unveiled and Seven raised an eyebrow when I said I wanted BSA

MikeOK

C & V does have it's place. I can especially understand someone riding an old bike that they bought when new. I've owned about a dozen bikes in my life and I typically keep one just a couple years. But I did have an old Trek road bike that I rode over 10 years. And my Yeti mtn bike I've had for about 12 years, it's the best mtn bike I've owned and Yeti still sells this exact same bike. It's due for an upgrade, and this winter it might get electronic. Not just because I like the bike, it's because electronic is better.

mstateglfr 

The shark has been jumped. Perspective has been lost.
Those who ride over 3000mi in this world are the top 7% probably.
The other 93% of cyclists spend their time on 'practically nothing' for miles.