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Culture change

Old 03-25-20, 10:52 AM
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Culture change

With the realization that we are subjected to conditions from all over the world do they have to rethink high density living and mass transit? We have learned that people left New York as the virus hit that state hard. we know hapl of all the the cases are in the most dense state in the USA. Mass transit is suffering because of covid19. I see empty buses here and friends have reported lower ridership in LA. Has it effected people in this forum?

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/on-air/as...mpact/2343061/
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Old 03-25-20, 03:59 PM
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HK and SK have theirs under control, so... no, we just need to be smarter.

Which means we're doomed, but that's a different question.
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Old 03-25-20, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
HK and SK have theirs under control, so... no, we just need to be smarter.

Which means we're doomed, but that's a different question.
I have Family in LA and Seattle. My nephew says bus ridership is way off. https://la.streetsblog.org/2020/03/1...ce-reductions/

My Niece in Seattle says transit is hurting. Both have been more or less sheltering in place. The Nephew and his wife work from home and my niece has a mail order business. But her kids are home so she isn't getting out as much either.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...irus-outbreak/
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Old 03-25-20, 08:19 PM
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Transportation in general is way way down. The number of cars on the road during the weekday are a fraction of normal. In the evening it's like a ghost town. People aren't going to work, they aren't going out to dinner, they aren't visiting friends. I expect transit is even more down than cars because people don't want to be around others. Out on the end of the MAX line where I live, I see two to four people per car these days.

The last example we had, the Spanish Flu, did not spare rural areas or even most remote villages. It took longer, but it got there and was devastating.

When comparing NY with other states, you have to keep in mind two things. First, infected people hit there sooner than much of the country so it's ahead of much of the country, and second they are testing more than any other state. If you don't test, you don't have positives.
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Old 03-25-20, 08:54 PM
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News I've heard around here is that there isn't a lot of testing going on, one person I know was notified that she was getting physical therapy at the same time as someone who had it so she just needs to lock herself in for 14 days and only if it gets too bad to handle should she seek medical help. No test to determine if she has is, just self quarantine.
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Old 03-25-20, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by downtube42 View Post
Transportation in general is way way down. The number of cars on the road during the weekday are a fraction of normal. In the evening it's like a ghost town. People aren't going to work, they aren't going out to dinner, they aren't visiting friends. I expect transit is even more down than cars because people don't want to be around others. Out on the end of the MAX line where I live, I see two to four people per car these days.

The last example we had, the Spanish Flu, did not spare rural areas or even most remote villages. It took longer, but it got there and was devastating.

When comparing NY with other states, you have to keep in mind two things. First, infected people hit there sooner than much of the country so it's ahead of much of the country, and second they are testing more than any other state. If you don't test, you don't have positives.

I think New York is an example of the most dense of living in the US, that and New Jersey. Mass Transit is the most dense way to travel. And we have been told we need social distance. It could make a big change in how we view dense living conditions in the future. This pandemic may come again even if we stop it this time and if it does people seem to react the same way time after time. As an example during the time of the Black Plague in Europe the people that had the best chance of living left London to live out on rural estates. It seems as if that is an action people are taking even today. At least looking at reports by people that track these things. https://therealdeal.com/2020/03/25/e...-and-avoiding/

There is some kind of change in the air, cultural or something. https://therealdeal.com/2020/03/25/e...-and-avoiding/
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Old 03-26-20, 03:53 PM
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And still no one is even whispering Zero Population Growth. Seems obvious. Too many people. If all of these younger "Green New Deal" people swore to only have zero, one, or two kids and one or two pets at the most, they could fix this in one generation as the baby boomers pass on. But will they? My chips are on NO they wont.

https://www.populationconnection.org...-happened-zpg/

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Old 03-26-20, 06:35 PM
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Don't eat, or have relations, with meat and a lot goes away....
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Old 03-26-20, 07:24 PM
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I'm doing the family grocery shopping now, by bicycle (saves me from having to touch the store's shopping carts). There's no public transportation where I am so, that's not part of the picture. One of my household members has two co-workers who have a connection to the virus. One caught it from their young adult children in Florida and is self-quaranteeing, the other has a mid-40s next-door neighbor who is bad-off, sent to a hospital 30 miles away (because no appropriate facility at local hospital) with all the symptoms.
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Old 03-26-20, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyah View Post
I'm doing the family grocery shopping now, by bicycle (saves me from having to touch the store's shopping carts). There's no public transportation where I am so, that's not part of the picture. One of my household members has two co-workers who have a connection to the virus. One caught it from their young adult children in Florida and is self-quaranteeing, the other has a mid-40s next-door neighbor who is bad-off, sent to a hospital 30 miles away (because no appropriate facility at local hospital) with all the symptoms.

I have another week of stay in place. So I have gone to online shopping. What it seems like is social distancing could put a big dent into mass transit. Stores that are open have a restricted number allowed in at one time and are only allowed to approach the cashier one at a time. Bart is hurting in San Francisco. It looks like Buses, Trains and planes are going to have to reconfigure a lot to get people back. https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2020/news20200225
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Old 03-27-20, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
I have another week of stay in place.
Only one week??
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Old 03-27-20, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
It looks like Buses, Trains and planes are going to have to reconfigure a lot to get people back.
They'll have to take cleaning more seriously.
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Old 03-27-20, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
Only one week??
Our Governor has asked high risk people and non essential workers to stay home for 14 days. Thursday was seven days for me. All people flying into Texas are mandated 14 days especially from New York. It isn't mandated for the rest of us but my kids would go ballistic if I went to the store.

We are being told, believe it or not, that the major problem is transference from people to people. That makes surface cleaning secondary. The virus seems to have a very short lifespan on most surfaces. But the days of putting people on Buses, trains and planes shoulder to shoulder may be over, if not by mandate by caution. Meetings, concerts, restaurants, museums, sporting events are all canceled because of social distancing. And people here are not shaking hands any more. Hugs are gone. Schools are closed.

I just believe our relationship to others will change socially and culturally. People some we used to call germaphobes are now looking like reasonable people. This event look like it may have a lasting effect on peoples psyche. Living densely sounds dangerous and from the looks of streets in Italy and the US it seems as if the population is taking in seriously. Except for some places in New York where we still see people gathering. But then they have half of all the cases of Covid 19 we see.

My question might better be, will this cultural shift last?
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Old 03-27-20, 02:10 PM
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Wait till it's in the M's... Then, there WILL be a major change, right now it still hasn't really sunk into some people's brain/what brain they have... (it's a temporary glitch, to some,... and isn't a real problem to others) and they are partying/socializing like there's nothing to worry about. (probably because it seems to only kill 60+ year old's, and how is that a problem)???... JMO

EDIT: Here is what happened to my wife while shopping at Costco yesterday... Costco was doing EVERYTHING, RIGHT!!! By the way, sterilizing the touch pad/sterilizing the buggies, and not letting too many people into the store at any one time and so on... a shopper behind her was touching, and picking up things all around the store, like dozen's of things, that he did not buy and putting them back onto the shelves.... TOTALY NOT seeming to understand/or care, about the gravity of the situation that everyone else thought was serious enough to follow Costco's rules … It's "A holes" like that, that will bring the death tolls into the M's in the next year... IMO OH< I seemed to have missed, mentioning, the president of the USA and his take on the subject... Oh, no, banned,.. I will be now, not just reprimanded…

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Old 03-27-20, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
People some we used to call germaphobes are now looking like reasonable people. This event look like it may have a lasting effect on peoples psyche. Living densely sounds dangerous and from the looks of streets in Italy and the US it seems as if the population is taking in seriously.
So right on the germaphobe bit. I'm grateful that my mother is a germaphobe. All that hand washing, taking hand sanitizer to church, and spraying me down with Lysol when I got sick as a kid seems totally okay at the moment!

I suspect that we'll probably see more people covering their faces in public, even in the US, once we get to the other side of this - just like people in other regions of the world have been doing for quite some time. To be perfectly honest, I feel safer living in a place with moderate population density than the lower density place I lived a year ago. There are actual services for things like grocery delivery, there's reliable phone and internet access, and when supplies run out, they get restocked more quickly.


Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
And still no one is even whispering Zero Population Growth. Seems obvious. Too many people.
No kidding. I've been saying that for quite some time.
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Old 03-27-20, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by wipekitty View Post
So right on the germaphobe bit. I'm grateful that my mother is a germaphobe. All that hand washing, taking hand sanitizer to church, and spraying me down with Lysol when I got sick as a kid seems totally okay at the moment!

I suspect that we'll probably see more people covering their faces in public, even in the US, once we get to the other side of this - just like people in other regions of the world have been doing for quite some time. To be perfectly honest, I feel safer living in a place with moderate population density than the lower density place I lived a year ago. There are actual services for things like grocery delivery, there's reliable phone and internet access, and when supplies run out, they get restocked more quickly.




No kidding. I've been saying that for quite some time.
I suspect you might be right. I also suspect our concept of living space and population density will change.Trains might be made longer to space people out but the bus is another matter. Those big city buses simply can't be configured to give every0ne six feet of space. Planes may be even worse. Elevators may have to be limited to two people..

Like I said people don't even attempt to shake hands anymore and human contact is being discouraged. I don't know from reading how bad services like Lyft and Urber are doing but Imagine they have taken a hit. Like I said Bart in San Francisco is way off. Metrolink in LA has lost ridership, I don't expect full recovery for a very long time. https://www.masstransitmag.com/rail/...virus-outbreak
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Old 03-28-20, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
Our Governor has asked high risk people and non essential workers to stay home for 14 days. Thursday was seven days for me. All people flying into Texas are mandated 14 days especially from New York. It isn't mandated for the rest of us but my kids would go ballistic if I went to the store.

We are being told, believe it or not, that the major problem is transference from people to people. That makes surface cleaning secondary. The virus seems to have a very short lifespan on most surfaces. But the days of putting people on Buses, trains and planes shoulder to shoulder may be over, if not by mandate by caution. Meetings, concerts, restaurants, museums, sporting events are all canceled because of social distancing. And people here are not shaking hands any more. Hugs are gone. Schools are closed.

I just believe our relationship to others will change socially and culturally. People some we used to call germaphobes are now looking like reasonable people. This event look like it may have a lasting effect on peoples psyche. Living densely sounds dangerous and from the looks of streets in Italy and the US it seems as if the population is taking in seriously. Except for some places in New York where we still see people gathering. But then they have half of all the cases of Covid 19 we see.

My question might better be, will this cultural shift last?
Most of us have been sent home ... not for 14 days, but for the next several months. It's not going to be gone in 14 days.

An interesting ... and quite realistic ... read:

Coronavirus across the world: What happens next?

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/he...cbbf1e3#.156fc

"When will normalcy return?

The answer is simple.

We donít know. But we know what it will take.

We can only hit the streets again in the same way we did back in January once some 80 per cent of the population has resistance to COVID19.

And you only get that once youíve had the disease and recover.

Or, you get a vaccination.

.
.
.

Australia can only open for business once again when the risk can be managed. And that wonít be easy.

It will need all-encompassing testing. Massive contact tracing. Isolating the infected.

This could entail privacy-intruding surveillance and monitoring that goes against our democratic grain.

And it could last up to two years."
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Old 03-28-20, 01:43 PM
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Everything will return to normal eventually Just like every other disease. We will rebuild, we will recover because we are human and we will survive. Resistance is futile.... heheh. You may take our lives, but you'll never take us all.

In a world where there is no physical contact:


So did naked gun actually call it on the covid 19. Conspiracy I says, conspiracy.

I saw a bunch of people wearing masks today and just plain creepy. Although I cant be certain that they may have looked far worse with the mask off. Since it's not airtight it doesn't make you invulnerable because the virus molecules are very teeny. It'll probably reduce the amount of the virus you breath in initially, but I don't think it takes much to infect a person.

I think we're all going to get it at some point and there are probably loads of people that have had it and not even known so you can't trust the stats 100%.

Remember black death? I don't, but I'm here because the world didn't end, I think we came close, but we're living post that event.

I recon as a kid you need to be exposed to some good germs to build up your immunity to stuff. Not enough kids get to play outside or in the mud when they're young. But, advances in medicine and learning about these diseases has meant we die a lot less from stuff. In a generation covid 19 will probably just be another thing you get inoculated for.
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Old 03-28-20, 01:44 PM
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I think that's right - it could be two years before things are under control, and who knows what we'll see on the other side. This is not a snowstorm where it's over in a week and then you go clean up.

In the meantime, it seems to me that one of the cultural shifts that might take place is more people working from home on a routine basis. I work in an industry where working from home was traditionally allowed - and expected; 20 hours at work, +/- 30 hours at home, and a week's work gets done. In my industry, there has been a slow creep toward a 9-5 culture, and along with it, a frustrating creep toward more busywork and less time for doing work that seems relatively important. COVID-19 just killed that.

It seems that a lot of office-type jobs can be done just fine at least partially from home. If people get used to working from home, that could spell less demand for transit, and maybe less congestion for those who need to drive for work (trades, delivery, etc.) Perhaps density will no longer be a huge issue for mass transit. All speculation, of course.
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Old 03-28-20, 02:31 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
Most of us have been sent home ... not for 14 days, but for the next several months. It's not going to be gone in 14 days.

An interesting ... and quite realistic ... read:

Coronavirus across the world: What happens next?

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/he...cbbf1e3#.156fc

"When will normalcy return?

The answer is simple.

We donít know. But we know what it will take.

We can only hit the streets again in the same way we did back in January once some 80 per cent of the population has resistance to COVID19.

And you only get that once youíve had the disease and recover.

Or, you get a vaccination.

.
.
.

Australia can only open for business once again when the risk can be managed. And that wonít be easy.

It will need all-encompassing testing. Massive contact tracing. Isolating the infected.

This could entail privacy-intruding surveillance and monitoring that goes against our democratic grain.

And it could last up to two years."
I read something very much like this in the Atlantic. I had two problems with both but they were just my opinion. First I don't trust the WHO. They covered for several months for China in the number of cases and how it was spread. Far more than medical experts they have become political. But The CDC is not positive we will be immune once we recover so if we rely on the herd mentality we could lose 20 percent this season and 20 percent next season. If that becomes the norm, that Covid 19 is like catching a cold, then the days of dense living , dense mass transit even dense shopping will become a thing of the past I think. I believe we might have a major shift in human interaction. At least I see in now and it didn't take that long for us to limit our contact with other people. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/faq.html
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Old 03-28-20, 11:21 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
And still no one is even whispering Zero Population Growth. Seems obvious. Too many people. If all of these younger "Green New Deal" people swore to only have zero, one, or two kids and one or two pets at the most, they could fix this in one generation as the baby boomers pass on. But will they? My chips are on NO they wont.

https://www.populationconnection.org...-happened-zpg/
You're like a stranded WWII fighter pilot who doesn't know the war is over. You have to be on a pretty small atoll to not know that the Gen X and Z kids are so blasted by all the crap we have put in the air and water that the women are infertile by age 30. Not that it matters, only half of the guys can get it up reliably and increasingly they don't want to get it up. Going forward, a population crash is more likely than your overpopulation nightmare. And .. pets? What have you got against pets? We seem to have baked in a culture where people feel like everything a total stranger does affects them in some way. And ... just saying ... seems like an awful lot of people are working hard on LAWS to prevent those young people that still can, from having zero, one, or just two kids ... I suggest you talk to them
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Old 03-28-20, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
"When will normalcy return?

Australia can only open for business once again when the risk can be managed. And that wonít be easy.
Unless things have changed, in Australia:

Schools stay open, but there is online school for parents who don't want to send their children to school.

Most work places stay open. Some businesses have closed because the business has been affected by the situation.

Most shops stay open.

Food places are open for take away, but not eat in.

They just advise people not to do anything where large groups of people gather together. This includes limiting the number of people at weddings and funerals.

I think this is better than the large shut downs in many countries.
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Old 03-29-20, 12:03 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by alo View Post
Unless things have changed, in Australia:

Schools stay open, but there is online school for parents who don't want to send their children to school.

Most work places stay open. Some businesses have closed because the business has been affected by the situation.

Most shops stay open.

Food places are open for take away, but not eat in.

They just advise people not to do anything where large groups of people gather together. This includes limiting the number of people at weddings and funerals.

I think this is better than the large shut downs in many countries.
Things have changed.

Schools are open for essential services parents, but the rest are strongly encouraged to stay home.
Many workplaces have closed or are encouraging employees to work from home.
Many shops have closed or have reduced their hours and put various restrictions in place.
Some food places have closed.
We're not allowed to gather in groups larger than 10 anywhere.

Last edited by Machka; 03-29-20 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 03-29-20, 03:10 AM
  #24  
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And things have changed again ...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-...id-19/12101162
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Old 03-29-20, 10:42 AM
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Mobile 155
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
Like you I have been watching trends but mostly in the USA. But I questioned about the cultural change because the old mantra," High density population will save us", is hardly anywhere to be heard. Here it seems as if low density places are trying to restrict people from high density places from access to their area. https://nypost.com/2020/03/29/rhode-...g-coronavirus/ People have taken it upon themselves to restrict traveling by mass transit both for business and pleasure. As seen from many previous posts and links.

My question is do we think this is a long lasting change? Will population planners have to rethink stuffing as many people into as small of a place to work, shop and live as they had done before this pandemic? In my opinion just looking form how easy it was to give up sporting events, concerts, and restaurants I would say it is very likely the change will be long lasting. COVID-19
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