etherhuffer 

So, I am building a rear wheel, and the truing stand says I'm close, the dishing tool says I am not. What am I doing wrong?

Panthers007

Without knowing what truing-stand you're using, I suggest you flip the wheel in it and check again. But if you're going to believe one - believe the dishing-gauge. Most truing-stands (I have a Park TS-2) need a bit of tinkering done to make them give accurate dish readings. Rather than spend my time on this - I just use my dishing-gauge.

etherhuffer 

I am using the same stand. I will use the dish tool and then use the closest caliper to true it off. Sound reasonable?

mrrabbit 

Don't use any built in dishing utility of a truing stand...they are often off a tad...and get worse over time requiring resetting...

1. With the stand arms slightly snug, flip wheel and rotate axle...flip wheel again and rotate axle...was it the same or not...

2. Use the old reliable handy dishing tool...

I've had mine since 1985...and no matter how ugly it is - and how troublesome it can be to handle in the midst of tight handling situations - I will never trade it in for anything...

Why?

It has never failed me...once!

=8-)

The other issue I have with built in dishing features of truing stand is that you are dead center between the points...but I actually like a bias of a couple millimeters to the right point - pretty much negating the dishing feature. I actually pop the wheel a couple millimeters rightwise before locking it in the stand.

=8-)

Panthers007

Mr. Rabbit is on the mark. To translate: Rely on the dishing-gauge. Save trouble-shooting for later regards the truing-stand.

I use the Park Tool WAG-3 currently. I had a Minoura, but it froze-up and fell apart. Park I suggest dwells here:

https://www.parktool.com/products/det...=16&item=WAG-3

Al1943

Dishing gauge is good but I don't use one. I just flip the wheel on the stand multiple times until I know the rim is centered. This is just as accurate as a dishing tool.

Al

operator

This is not the proper way of doing things. There's a reason why a dishing tool exists. Using the stand itself as a gauge is unreliable.

prathmann

The dishing tool is useful since it's much faster than repeatedly flipping the wheel over in the stand. But there's nothing "unreliable" about flipping the wheel over and verifying that the dishing is correct.

kenhill3

I also use a TS-2 to build wheels. I just don't like flipping it in the stand.

Always a dishing gauge for me. The flipping is a LOT faster. Built my own from oak and hardware bits about 12 years ago:

operator

Wrong

Can you guarantee that the wheel will sit exactly the same with a measureable tolerance with repeated flipping? On a new stand? How about one that's been used 30k times? Would you bet a professional build on the flipping method?

The WAG-4 allows you to verify dish without ever taking it out of the stand. I can dish more wheels perfectly, faster and better than flipping. Money back guarantee.

kenhill3

Thanks. I looked at the WAG-4 on Park's site, but don't really understand how to use it while the wheel is in the stand.

On a side note, how absolutely perfect does dish need to be? Just askin'.

JohnDThompson 

Self-centering truing stands are handy, but they do go out of alignment. Trust the dishing tool, not the stand.

kenhill3

One of the first things I did when I got a TS-2 was to 'disable' the self-centering part- the right-hand sleeve with set screw next to the big spring (shaft adjusting collar).

prathmann

Repeatedly flipping the wheel back and forth automatically lets me know what the tolerance is - if the result varies from one flip to the next then I look for the reason why the wheel isn't sitting in the holder the same each time. But I haven't found that to be a problem in practice if I'm the least bit careful about inserting the wheel firmly and securely. And yes, I would trust the result of building the wheel that way. In fact I'd trust it more than using a dishing tool that I hadn't first verified since it's less subject to possible systematic error. Similar to the mistake made with the Hubble mirror in depending on the technically more precise measurement tool and disregarding the simple Foucault test.

But, as I said before, I agree that a good dishing tool can make things quicker and easier

operator

Sorry, i'm a perfectionist.

The Wag-4 and TS-2 stand is desinged to specifically allow you to use the dishing tool without removing the wheel from the stand at all. Notice the shape of the stand where the axle goes in and the shape of the feeler of the WAG-4. They are compatible.

Having said that, I know personally the stand I use daily to know that it is 2-3mm off left of exactly where the lateral feelers is. It saves a lof of time when dealing with wheels. As a final check I always use the WAG-4, but unless a meteor crashed into it when I wasnt looking, this offset is consistent day to day.

Time is money

etherhuffer 

Thanks to all. I looked at what I was doing and realized (since I am new at this) that I was heading the wrong direction on the dish. I was paying too much attention to the rim, not thinking that the axle goes the opposite of the rim. Duh'o. But... It was the dishing gauge that woke my brain up to that fact. Both stand and dish are very useful for a beginner like me.

bellweatherman

Dishing tool is good to have because most stands that claim that they self-center do not do it well at all.

I don't agree with the comment about flipping the wheel in the stand as improper. I know a former pro-team mechanic that used to use an old Var truing stand when he was wrenching and he only used a dishing tool to quickly check the dish on multiple wheels. He would always build and center the wheels by flipping them in the stand. You will have to flip many times, but the wheel becomes more and more centered with every flip. You will not get any more accurately centered of a wheel using the dishing tool as compared to this method. So, the comment about it not being proper I don't agree with. Not only is it proper, but it is a proven and accurate method.

operator

This is just one big fail, I don't know what else to say about it. That mechanic never learned how to do things the correct and fast way. Would I dish wheels by flipping if I didn't have the tool? Yes. Would I do it this way if I did? Of course not! If you had a dishing tool, why the **** would you repeatedly flip the wheel in the stand and waste time? Seriously?

An experienced mechanic only needs to check the dish on the wheel maximum of two times. Once when it's true and another if it wasn't dished properly. So called "experienced" mechanic means jack all. There are a lot of experienced crappy mechanics out there.

bellweatherman

Um, that mechanic friend of mine was a professional mechanic that wrenched for a pro team in Europe. You fail to realize that the Var Atomic stand has left and right independent adjustment screws, so by truing multiple wheels (ie, a team of rear wheels), you set one side independently of the other. If you do one wheel that is perfectly true and set the caliper on one side, then it is WAY faster and more accurate to flip-flop, than it is to use a dishing tool.

Thank you.

PS- try not to act so smug and condescending. Your methodology works for you, but you come off as a real *****hole saying that everybody else's method is bunk.

operator

I am an *******. Who do you think I am?

My park TS-2 is cenetered using the TS-2. I use it daily enough to know exactly what the offset is. 99.9% of the time I do a final check with the dishing guage and it's perfectly in dish. That's a total of 1 extra step, and i've never flipped a ****ing wheel with a guage present. You don't need to!

Wordbiker

There's a reason a race mechanic doesn't use a dishing tool: It's one less thing to pack when flipping the wheel has the same result. In a shop you have the luxury of not having to deal with toolbox weight.

Soil_Sampler

"The 1554-1 will help align the TS-2 stand, but for accurate work with the TS-2,
working with a dishing tool such as the WAG-4 is recommended."

https://www.parktool.com/products/det...item=1554%2D1#

mrrabbit 

Using the flip method in a truing stand is okay BUT WITH ONE CAVEAT:

You MUST rotate the axle...

- in almost snug arms
- mark the extent to where the rim moves left
- mark the extent to where the rim moves right

Then flip the wheel...

- in almost snug arms
- mark the extent to where the rim moves to the left
- mark the extent to where the rim moves right

The above method can result in a wheel that is dished within a millimeter...however it is very time consuming.

Dishing tool is more accurate - and much quicker.

=8-)

mrrabbit 

Nicely done...

Funny thing is more than once I've been in the middle of conversations in a shop in which someone is lamenting the need for a dishing tool - and the cost...

...when someone says, "Just build your own!"

Each time about half the bystanders just react to the messenger with a quizzical look...and the other half just smile in agreement understanding that it is cheap and easy to make - no rocket science required.

=8-)

Al1943

With my TS 2 truing stand I can quickly dish a wheel to within 1/2 mm without reversing the wheel. I keep the stand centered for rear road wheels at 130 mm spacing. I check dish and truing accuracy further by reversing the wheel a few times. When I'm through the wheel will be accurately true radially, laterally, and dished to a fraction of a mm. I find the manufacturer's accuracy of the rim. I'm confident that I can do this as accurately without a dishing tool as anyone can with a dishing tool. It's not rocket science, just geometry. Centered is centered, regardless of how you get there.

Al