oldbobcat

Getting some weight forward to plant the front wheel does aid handling, but weight over the feet means your center of mass is still roughly over the bottom bracket. This still leaves quite a bit of leeway for individuation. And fitter, more aggressive riders tend to use smaller frames which leads to longer stems and more cornering stability. And moving the hands to the drops also shifts weight forward.

The rider who can best benefit from this discussion is the guy who thinks the reason his back, neck, hands, and wrists hurt is because he's stretched too far forward. So he slides the saddle forward, which puts more weight on the hands, so he buys gel gloves, gel handlebar pads, a short riser stem, and a comfort saddle, and he's puzzled and angry because all he's done is shift the pain to different body parts.

rat fink

I agree.

Genshu

I dont believe any of that because, if you look at where his face is pointing, he is staring at the front wheel spokes the whole time, except for a little bit on the first position when he looked up. I have stenosis in my neck, and have had to raise the handle bars a lot, move them towards the seat a lot, actually inverted the stem towards me rather then away. All in order to avoid pinching my neck when looking ahead. I am excited to try pivoting forward and flattening my back, but this video doesn't convince me much because he is looking down the whole time.

rat fink

If it helps any, that probably because he is on the trainer. For some reason, I'm always staring at the ground when I'm on a trainer, too. On the road though, it's different. I run a very similar setup to the guy in the video, I never have problems looking forward while on the road.

Campag4life

To be honest, a road bike isn't the best bike for somebody with a neck condition. This thread does explain just how counterintuitive road bike fit is however. Many go to a more upright position seeking comfort only to find it aggravates neck and shoulder problems due to more compression in the arms which translates to shoulders and neck. This is kind of a limbo state if you think about it...caught between riding bolt upright like Mary Poppins and a traditional road bike position. The problem with riding bolt upright is manifold of course...not only in power transfer but wind resistance but more notably pain is just transfered to the seat because all the riders weight is transferred to the saddle. By contrast the so called comfort road bike or what I call limbo position fights the natural body position required for spirited pedaling which is with the back closer to 45 degrees with butt well back. As the torso seeks this more laid out position it pushes hard down on the handlebar. With the handlebar in the proper position there is no such pressure which translates to shoulders and neck. Further, it isn't just about torso angle affecting neck pain. It is the posture of the back that changes the curvature of the upper back increasing neck angle/extension even with a higher handlebar. So many counterintutive aspects to fit and why I believe it is so often performed poorly. Having experimented extensively from high to low bar position, a lower bar to a point...I still ride a modest drop of about 6cm...improves my neck comfort for the simple fact that my arms are in much less compression into my shoulders. A lower bar promotes a more elongated body with spine in less compression and moves the bottom rearward behind the BB taking weight of the hands and rotates the pelvis more forward.

If you read and re-read this thread, all the information is there to make an informed decision about proper fit. I will say again however...and this applies to me, John Cobb in his B back video takes his interpretation of fit to an extreme for the average cyclist. 12cm of drop in my experience is too much drop...more fitting to racer with overall superior conditioning. So if this is what you are referring to, I agree. I will say however that many that seek a comfort road bike for more comfort sitting with their pelvis rotated back end up being less comfortable and slower. I think its key to find a saddle that allows more forward pelvis rotation without perineal pressure. John Cobb is right on the money about cause and effect. Many times a lower bar is more comfortable 'to a point' as in my experience as well because that is the body position that the body naturally tries to assume when riding in a spirited manner. If the geometry of the fit fights the bodies' natural position sought by spirited pedaling, the result is discomfort and lost speed.

Genshu

Well i went to the LBS with a more open mind, and am starting to see the light with the lower handlebars. Could really feel the difference in terms of access to the leg engine. Test rode about 4 bikes, re the neck some were a lot better then others. Rode a couple $2700 and up bikes, which were some damn sweet, now Im in trouble!

cooleric1234

Looks like an interesting thread, I haven't finished reading all of it. But you realize the OP's observation is directly in contrast with what Fizik recommends, and their saddles should show they know a thing or two. I don't know who's right, just an observation.

https://www.fizik.it/spineconcept/#/how-it-works.html

TromboneAl

I moved the handlebars down a little, and adjusted the saddle forward a tiny bit, and I was very uncomfortable on a 56 mile ride Sunday. I'm not sure it was from the changes, but I've moved the handlebars back up, and will see what happens.

oldbobcat

Why did you move the saddle forward? That only put more weight on your hands.

What we've been talking about is the necessity of moving the saddle rearward as you lower the handlebar. As the torso nears a horizontal position, the center of gravity moves forward. To restore upper body balance the saddle needs to move back. That also allows you to stretch the lower back.

oldbobcat

Fizik's spine concept marketing is only about two years old, while the Arione, Aliante, and Antares saddles have been on the market for about five years. My customers who buy Fizik saddles have reasons that have nothing to do with their spinal concepts, although they all tend to be fit and show generally good posture and core strength.

The Arione sells because it's long, flat, and firm, and the "flex wings" give support without undue pressure. The Aliante is popular with guys who want something wider, and the scoop seems to reduce pressure by increasing the area of the contact patch under the butt. The Antares is most difficult to sell, probably because it's hard where the flex wings should go. I hear David Zabriskie likes them for both his road and time trial setups, though.

According to Fizik's spinal concept I'm a bull, but I've got good flexibility for an old man at the pelvis. I love my Arione because my old Turbos were too wide and my Concor was putting pressure on the perineum.

Hulley

I'm thinking of trying this. Measure the distance between pedal shafts, mark the distance on the floor using blue tape, stand with each foot on the blue tape in a horizontal crankshaft position and balance myself to see where the knee is positioned and then adjust the fore/aft on the seat. When standing on the tape you can feel pressure on the balls of your feet and determine where to achieve center balance. Does this sound reasonable? IDK, maybe too early in the morning......

cooleric1234

As eluded to earlier though, by the Dave Moulton graphic, that may not be true for tall guys right? I'm 6'5" and I found that with a new bike with higher handlebars it's been more uncomfortable. I wasn't sure why but this thread makes sense. The contact point measurements were same in almost every other respect, just higher handlebars. My old bike had something like 3 inches of drop. And I'm not a high mileage ultra-flexible serious cyclist. I've read that tall guys just do better naturally with more drop, true?

Campag4life

As oldbobcat stated, you moved the saddle the wrong way. Reread oldbobcats' posts...he really knows his stuff. Cause and effect has been written repeatedly throughout this thread. The reason why so many mistakes are made with fit even after a lengthy discussion here, is not everybody will get it. Road bike fit kind of reminds me of golf swing mechanics. Many of the metrics involves are the opposite of intuition....moving saddle farther away and lower handlebars begetting more riding comfort reinforce this.

For those that the above doesn't resonate with...I suggest a professional fitting but do some research to find a good one because for every good fitter out there, there is a bad one.

Campag4life

Quite right. Drop relative to body height isn't the same as Dave Moulton's chart clearly shows. This can be attributed to scaling of larger bodies and/or most tall people including me even though you dwarf me, derive their height in their legs and leg length 'typically' correlates to arm length as we morphed from quadripeds just a few years ago. So it makes sense that drop does become more pronounced with taller riders. This makes my modest drop even with my long sleeve length that much more pedestrian.
cheers.

roadwarrior

But now you'll get 16 posts about what a rip off that is. There's way too many "experts" here.

Take a look at the "opinions about fault" thread. As an example.

rat fink

Moulton's graphic is only the beginning. There are a lot variations on wingspan, upper and lower leg length, and torso length, as well as riding preferences/styles that may contradict even that data.

As far as the tall guys thing goes, it does seem that the taller you are the more drop you need/can get. However, some taller guys can't have a lot of drop because they don't have longer arms. This is different than the ones who are just inflexible and want to sit upright. What you have to pay attention to is torso angle. Pick thr torso angle that works best and set you cockpit where it need to be to achieve that position in a somewhat natural way.

RT

Great thread. I may have missed this somewhere, but something I have done to remedy a slightly sore back and neck (after adjusting the stem height, length and angle, saddle fore/aft and tilt) was awareness of form. When tired, I tend to hunch a bit (maybe we all do?), so I focus on relaxing my lower back, which naturally plants my weight on the front of my sit bones. This also has the effect of stretching my diaphragm and reducing undue weight on my hands while reducing the bounce in my pedal stroke. In conjunction with this little move, I work on keeping an even pedal stroke, not mashing 100% of the time. This may be second nature to most of you, but it takes a conscious effort on my part and has a learning curve much like learning clipless: It gets easier, as any improvement to one's overall cycling game does.

roadwarrior

.
Work on your core strength and flexibility. Many riders put a lot of weight on their arms, and ride with locked elbows. Your core should be absorbing the responsibility of holding up the torso, reducing the weight on your hands and allowing you to hold the bars with a much lighter grip. There's a ton of info on the net about how to improve your core strength...and don't ignore flexibility. BTW...the lighter grip will give you better control and allow your arms to act as shock absorbers.

rat fink

RW, what do you think of the book Cycling Anatomy? Have you read it? I have and have recommended it to several people I know as primer on the biomechanical side of riding. It does a good job on explaining muscle recruitment, strength training, and how to isolate muscle groups. It also has recommendations on what do in the gym to make you better on the bike.

Campag4life

True.

roadwarrior

I have not read it...but will take a look. I used to have a load of books on that subject...had a house fire that toasted them all. I will say that if you like a DVD to work out with, Trainright's "Core Strength for Cyclists and Triathletes" is very good. About 45 minutes with minimal equipment and it's very difficult if done correctly. You need a stability ball, a medicine ball, and probably a mat. The big thing is making sure that you get balance...like doing crunches, then back extensions for balance.

RT

Flexibility is not an issue, but the core always needs some work. Luckily, I have approved a home torture course - my daughter is doing P90X, and based on my initial level of soreness and the complaints from my core, am on the right track.

TromboneAl

I had remeasured with a plumb bob, and I was slightly behind KOPS. I wanted to use KOPS as a starting point. It was only a move of about 5 mm. But you have a good point.

Ideally, one can find the magic adjustment position at which all body parts are comfortable -- neck, butt, hands, knees. But if I can't find that position, hopefully I can find a position in which the different parts share the pain equally and tolerably.

Finally, I'm pretty sure that I can go on two identical rides with identical positioning on both, and be much more comfortable on one of the rides than the other. IOW, there are other variables involved. So I try not to jude any adjustments based on a single ride.

Davemutt

Give us some details. What was uncomfortable? Neck? Hands?

TromboneAl

No, it was my butt that was uncomfortable. I was "spilling the bowl," but from 33 miles on, the area near my sit bones was aching. I could change position slightly and be fine for a minute or so, then the ache would come back.

https://connect.garmin.com/activity/77083640