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How to avoid getting doored

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How to avoid getting doored

Old 07-23-20, 12:42 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Chistophe516
That is, if you ride in fear. Every time, I ride in traffic, I ANTICIPATE. Not just what a driver might do. But also, because of the time of day(AM/PM-Rush, Non-Rush). Also, Speed limit on the road..
Anticipation is exactly what I am talking about when it comes to the "6th sense." I always try and think "what is the most idiotic thing this driver can do?"

In terms of fear, down on the street in rush hour traffic is one of the most exciting places you can be...the energy is extraordinary, almost like getting a drug fix.
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Old 07-23-20, 01:14 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
You're better than that comment. My advice would be to apologize.
<snort>You enabled him, live with the consequences. Oh, this is just too rich, like a drug fixie, I can't take it ...
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Old 07-23-20, 01:26 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels
Another thing I do is blast my 140 db horn + avoiding the door zone.

One more important reason to avoid door zone in case of vans and trucks, people on foot / pedestrians could sneak out on the other side of the parked vehicle into your path, catching you totally by surprise. This also another important reason to sound the horn. Being out of the door zone greatly reduces the probability of hitting the person and also makes it easy to swerve out of harm's way.

Ironically such circumstances seem to happen very rarely depending on your region. Most people are sensible enough to scan the road before coming out. OFC things won't be the same for those who are drunk, impaired judgement, and for unsupervised children.

TBH, around where I live, I have many more close calls with people pulling out blindly from driveways than any issues with parked cars on the street.

No way is a 140 dB horn something I'd ever put on my bike, but I think you're dealing with a lot more extreme traffic than I am.
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Old 07-23-20, 01:27 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
<snort>You enabled him, live with the consequences. Oh, this is just too rich, like a drug fixie, I can't take it ...

You really needed to coke up for that comment?
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Old 07-23-20, 01:27 PM
  #30  
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Obviously, the safest technique would be to peer into each car window and see if the driver's hand is on the door latch, or not. If they're playing with their phones, or applying makeup (to name a couple examples), they're not likely to pop that door open any time soon. Of course, I'm not sure if any mere mortals such as the rest of us are quick enough to see the driver's hand, not at 20 per.
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Old 07-23-20, 01:34 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by BNSF
Obviously, the safest technique would be to peer into each car window and see if the driver's hand is on the door latch, or not. If they're playing with their phones, or applying makeup (to name a couple examples), they're not likely to pop that door open any time soon. Of course, I'm not sure if any mere mortals such as the rest of us are quick enough to see the driver's hand, not at 20 per.
Well, that and the door latch is usually a bit below the window line. I still think it would be crazy not to assume that it's likely that a head on that side of a parked car means an extremely high probability of someone opening the door.
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Old 07-23-20, 03:10 PM
  #32  
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There was a video posted somewhere on one of these forums that showed a bicyclist in the door zone get hit by an opening car door, get thrown under a truck and then run over by said truck. The truck driver had no way of knowing a bicyclist had been knocked under his truck. the result? One very dead bicyclist! Stay OUT of the door zone if you want the best chance of NOT being doored.

Cheers
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Old 07-23-20, 04:33 PM
  #33  
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Stay OUT of the MOTORIST zone if you want the best chance of NOT getting run over by a MOTORIST.

Skål

-mr. bill
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Old 07-23-20, 04:47 PM
  #34  
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Yes, the best advice is to stay out of the door zone....but doing so is not always possible. Another really, really cool technique is what the fixies guys do. I was not a fixie rider, but this is a slick technique.

Watch the murder the courier movie and towards the end you will see this skill performed beautifully. Lets say it is 4:30 rush hour traffic. The traffic is moving slowly, maybe 10 miles an hour tops. The messenger, under time pressure must travel at a faster rate of speed.

As a fixie biker comes up on the car on their right (and there is often another car on the left) just as their front tire passes the rear bumper they will lock the wheels up and start to drift to one side or another. During this moment they calculate the chances of a door opening or the car making a sudden right turn. If it looks bad they will stay locked longer. If not they release the lock and sprint past the car.
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Old 07-23-20, 05:03 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by RadDog
Yes, the best advice is to stay out of the door zone....but doing so is not always possible. Another really, really cool technique is what the fixies guys do. I was not a fixie rider, but this is a slick technique.

Watch the murder the courier movie and towards the end you will see this skill performed beautifully. Lets say it is 4:30 rush hour traffic. The traffic is moving slowly, maybe 10 miles an hour tops. The messenger, under time pressure must travel at a faster rate of speed.

As a fixie biker comes up on the car on their right (and there is often another car on the left) just as their front tire passes the rear bumper they will lock the wheels up and start to drift to one side or another. During this moment they calculate the chances of a door opening or the car making a sudden right turn. If it looks bad they will stay locked longer. If not they release the lock and sprint past the car.
Keep telling yourself it's a movie. (I'm not sure if that movie was very realistic.)
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Old 07-23-20, 05:05 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by BNSF
Obviously, the safest technique would be to peer into each car window and see if the driver's hand is on the door latch, or not. If they're playing with their phones, or applying makeup (to name a couple examples), they're not likely to pop that door open any time soon. Of course, I'm not sure if any mere mortals such as the rest of us are quick enough to see the driver's hand, not at 20 per.
You aren't seeing this. You aren't generally going to be able to see if they are playing with their phones or putting on make up either.

Even if you can see the thing you can't see, you will see it too late to do anything.

What you might see is a person in the driver's seat and not much else.

Originally Posted by livedarklions
Well, that and the door latch is usually a bit below the window line. I still think it would be crazy not to assume that it's likely that a head on that side of a parked car means an extremely high probability of someone opening the door.
This.

You can see people fairly-well (not perfectly). If the cars aren't obscuring each other, keep in mind that the rear window isn't (generally) tinted.

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-23-20 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 07-23-20, 06:40 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Keep telling yourself it's a movie. (I'm not sure if that movie was very realistic.)

It was a movie called Murder of Courier. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2611060/ You need to beef up your reading comprehension, as this was already explained. I was a messenger in San Francisco for 5 years, the movie was very realistic, especially the rampant drug and alcohol use.

The difference is that in SF the best paid messengers ride triple front chain multi gear set ups to deal with the hills. Vancouver (where murder of courier was filmed) is flat, so they ride fixies. VC is not as dense as SF and SF has cable car tracks which make riding a 25 cm tire very risky. Also, back when I messengered pay was much higher. This was before email. I don't know how these guys make a living.

Another difference is that in 1987 there were thousand and thousands of messengers. After work we gathered at a place and there were always at least 80 or more people there. Today there are only a handful.
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Old 07-23-20, 06:56 PM
  #38  
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Lots of BS here. Every car is a loaded weapon. Any door on any car can open at any time. OP gives fixie couriers the bad rap they deserve when riding faster than traffic, coming up on cars and passing on the right. Locking up their rear wheel for no reason at all without respect for other bikers following. All bad ideas. Glad we don't ride together.
People open car doors without looking...Fact! They do not turn their head to the left to look. You can't see them anyway.
Stay out of door zone period.
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Old 07-23-20, 07:10 PM
  #39  
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A lot of the comments smack of Trolling.

The best way to avoid getting doored is to stay out of the door zone. Next best way is to ride very slowly in the door zone and hope your reflexes are fast enough to save you. Not much chance of that though if the opening door deflects you down and into the traffic that is NOT expecting you to suddenly in front of them - if they even see you because you're NOT in their lane, nor line of sight.

I was a messenger in Toronto, Canada and I saw my share of other bicycle messengers getting doored or causing accidents.

Cheers
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Old 07-23-20, 07:14 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by RadDog
It was a movie called Murder of Courier. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2611060/ You need to beef up your reading comprehension, as this was already explained. I was a messenger in San Francisco for 5 years, the movie was very realistic, especially the rampant drug and alcohol use.
I understood what you said.

Using what is done in a staged movie as safety advice is stupid.

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-23-20 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 07-23-20, 07:23 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by RadDog
My advice to you would be to learn how to ride.
Authoritative, wow!
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Old 07-23-20, 08:37 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
...

You can see people fairly-well (not perfectly). If the cars aren't obscuring each other, keep in mind that the rear window isn't (generally) tinted.
I'm guessing from your usename you're from the east coast. Out here on the west coast, dark tinted rear windows are a regular feature. I look for waves of thank you from drivers I have been courteous to. About one in three I cannot even see through the rear window because it is so dark. I've also had the drivers who looked right at me, seemingly seeing me, and still opening the door at that perfect time. In general, I don't look very hard for people in parked cars. Sometimes they cannot be seen, sometimes they do the ridiculous so having seen them gave you no useful information and that whole time you were looking, there was other stuff you weren't looking at or seeing.

Ben

Last edited by 79pmooney; 07-23-20 at 08:39 PM. Reason: I'm really not so importnat I have to sign my name twice
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Old 07-23-20, 08:50 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
I'm guessing from your usename you're from the east coast. Out here on the west coast, dark tinted rear windows are a regular feature. I look for waves of thank you from drivers I have been courteous to. About one in three I cannot even see through the rear window because it is so dark. I've also had the drivers who looked right at me, seemingly seeing me, and still opening the door at that perfect time. In general, I don't look very hard for people in parked cars. Sometimes they cannot be seen, sometimes they do the ridiculous so having seen them gave you no useful information and that whole time you were looking, there was other stuff you weren't looking at or seeing.

Ben
You're better-off trying to look than not (I said you might see somebody). You don't have to look "hard" for them.

You're even more better-off not being in the door zone (I've said that multiple times).

Not everything will always work and not everything will work the same everywhere.

I've ridden on the west coast. The risk of being doored might be higher in NYC.

Originally Posted by 79pmooney
About one in three I cannot even see through the rear window because it is so dark. I've also had the drivers who looked right at me, seemingly seeing me, and still opening the door at that perfect time.
Being able to see 2/3 of them* might be meaningful. You might be better-off (even a little bit) seeing those who "seemingly saw you" because you might have some expectation they might do something bad. It's not hard to looktlook for the ones you can see. I suspect lots of riders don't do that.

(* I guess I might see 20% of them and, usually, the cars are empty.)

====================

There are all sorts of things that experienced/skilled riders (and I'll assume you are one of them) do that they might not even realize they do (because they've internalized it).
​ride

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Old 07-23-20, 11:18 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
I understood what you said.

Using what is done in a staged movie as safety advice is stupid.

Once again, reading comprehension, my friend. I was primarily referring to the people and personalities in the movie. It was spot on messenger culture. What was especially true, and sad, is the drug and alcohol abuse, it is rampant. It also unpacks the mentality behind the risk taking culture that often leads to death. I take you have not seen the movie. I highly recommend it. It goes beyond just talking about the job, it gets into these peoples lives.

Most messengers are people who have not had a lot of traditional success in life, shall we say. They finally find something they are good at and enter a community where they are loved and accepted....just go see the movie, you will understand. Someone asked me what I thought about it so I watched it and it was extremely authentic. Its on Amazon Prime.

Messengers will do whatever it takes to bond with this lifestyle. It is the most exciting job on the planet, its addictive. All this is a recipe for individuals who will do anything....anything to maintain the lifestyle. It should be no surprise that many, many messengers develop serious drinking and drug problems. It caught me too, after I lost my $200 a day gig I had to work as a slug for $50 a day. I was drinking 15 beers a day everyday and doing nasty white powders. I became unreliable (and eventually 30 years sober).

Now, as far as bike riding advice is concerned....I am most certainly not arguing for anyone to take safety lessons from messengers....you would be absolutely insane. I had a death wish because I had become a drunk loser. As most said, stay out of the door zone period. Honestly, I ride on mostly car less tarmac in a fancy smanshy McMansion neighborhood (not drinking turned my life around). I do have some tricks for staying away from cars almost altogether. That is also why I am into gravel and MTB.

However, I do also know some cool stuff you won't find anywhere else. As stated, I never rode a fixie. I was fascinated by the technique, never seeing it before. Again, watch the movie. It is really clever the way these guys and gals do it.

Here is the thing. I am 58, rode for 30 years in every imaginable condition. I raced BMX, MTB and trained with some pretty good road guys. Every time I learned something....a lot. I wish I trained with the road guys earlier because they really are the best when it comes too pure pedaling technique, cadence, and those sorts of things. I associate with a pretty hard core group of MTB guys and I tell them if they want to get better off road train on road with the experts. So, for me, I am always learning. I joined this forum to learn.

The stuff I know from messengering for 5 years is dangerous, but also very interesting.

Namaste

PS...I always wanted to go to Toronto
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Old 07-24-20, 08:01 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by RadDog
Once again, reading comprehension, my friend.
The problem isn't my "reading comprehension". It's you going on about irrelevant, off-topic crap that I'm ignoring because it's irrelevant.

Originally Posted by RadDog
Once again, reading comprehension, my friend. I was primarily referring to the people and personalities in the movie. It was spot on messenger culture. What was especially true, and sad, is the drug and alcohol abuse, it is rampant. It also unpacks the mentality behind the risk taking culture that often leads to death. I take you have not seen the movie. I highly recommend it. It goes beyond just talking about the job, it gets into these peoples lives.
??? Why the heck are you going on about "messenger culture" in a thread about the risks of being in the door zone?

Do you typically have a problem with staying on topic?

Originally Posted by RadDog
Yes, the best advice is to stay out of the door zone....but doing so is not always possible. Another really, really cool technique is what the fixies guys do. I was not a fixie rider, but this is a slick technique.

Watch the murder the courier movie and towards the end you will see this skill performed beautifully. Lets say it is 4:30 rush hour traffic. The traffic is moving slowly, maybe 10 miles an hour tops. The messenger, under time pressure must travel at a faster rate of speed.
This is "advice" is ridiculous! It's a staged movie!

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-24-20 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 07-24-20, 08:02 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by RadDog
Once again, reading comprehension, my friend. I was primarily referring to the people and personalities in the movie. It was spot on messenger culture. What was especially true, and sad, is the drug and alcohol abuse, it is rampant. It also unpacks the mentality behind the risk taking culture that often leads to death. I take you have not seen the movie. I highly recommend it. It goes beyond just talking about the job, it gets into these peoples lives.

Most messengers are people who have not had a lot of traditional success in life, shall we say. They finally find something they are good at and enter a community where they are loved and accepted....just go see the movie, you will understand. Someone asked me what I thought about it so I watched it and it was extremely authentic. Its on Amazon Prime.

Messengers will do whatever it takes to bond with this lifestyle. It is the most exciting job on the planet, its addictive. All this is a recipe for individuals who will do anything....anything to maintain the lifestyle. It should be no surprise that many, many messengers develop serious drinking and drug problems. It caught me too, after I lost my $200 a day gig I had to work as a slug for $50 a day. I was drinking 15 beers a day everyday and doing nasty white powders. I became unreliable (and eventually 30 years sober).

Now, as far as bike riding advice is concerned....I am most certainly not arguing for anyone to take safety lessons from messengers....you would be absolutely insane. I had a death wish because I had become a drunk loser. As most said, stay out of the door zone period. Honestly, I ride on mostly car less tarmac in a fancy smanshy McMansion neighborhood (not drinking turned my life around). I do have some tricks for staying away from cars almost altogether. That is also why I am into gravel and MTB.

However, I do also know some cool stuff you won't find anywhere else. As stated, I never rode a fixie. I was fascinated by the technique, never seeing it before. Again, watch the movie. It is really clever the way these guys and gals do it.

Here is the thing. I am 58, rode for 30 years in every imaginable condition. I raced BMX, MTB and trained with some pretty good road guys. Every time I learned something....a lot. I wish I trained with the road guys earlier because they really are the best when it comes too pure pedaling technique, cadence, and those sorts of things. I associate with a pretty hard core group of MTB guys and I tell them if they want to get better off road train on road with the experts. So, for me, I am always learning. I joined this forum to learn.

The stuff I know from messengering for 5 years is dangerous, but also very interesting.

Namaste

PS...I always wanted to go to Toronto
WTH is this doing here?
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Old 07-24-20, 10:16 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
The problem isn't my "reading comprehension". It's you going on about irrelevant, off-topic crap that I'm ignoring because it's irrelevant.


??? Why the heck are you going on about "messenger culture" in a thread about the risks of being in the door zone?

Do you typically have a problem with staying on topic?



This is "advice" is ridiculous! It's a staged movie!
A staged movie that you have not even seen yet feel qualified to analyze. Why do you embarrass yourself this way?

Do you always bold face "irrelevant off topic crap" that you are ignoring? Since you are incapable of discussing substance and are obviously obsessed with me my advice is for you to work on your attachment issues.

Again, you are free to read and participate as you wish, could you please stop gunking up threads with your childish nonsense. Otherwise I am going to have to put you on ignore. In short, go away.
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Old 07-24-20, 10:41 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by RadDog
Otherwise I am going to have to put you on ignore.
An inane threat. Why would I care? Please do! It helps me.
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Old 07-27-20, 11:44 AM
  #49  
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get out of the door zone, period.
you cannot see into parked cars, you cannot ride within 3 feet of them at all ever.
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Old 07-27-20, 12:00 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels
Where I live, cars are often heavily tinted and driver / pax are really hard to see. 6 wheeler trucks which are abundant in the streets have completely blocked view of the driver from behind.

So I just avoid the door zone and if I can't avoid the doorzone, I slow down until I passed the car. Motorcyclists (who are mostly professional delivery) also do the same thing in my city.

A passive option is simply bring a front light and turn it on (day or night, steady light, not blinking) - this cannot guarantee someone not opening a door for you but you'll definitely show up in the driver's side view mirror quite easily in case you have no other choice but to go through the doorzone (slowly of course). Just make sure the light is pointed slightly down and at low power setting so you don't blind the drivers through their mirrors

Another option if you can maintain the same speed as cars, you can move to the middle of the lane which places you completely out of the door zone. However, this option may not work for everyone as in my city there are no bike lanes so cyclists can own lanes if they can pace the cars. This option requires having flashing (not strobing) rear light day / night so you're much easier to notice if you're slowing down.
I really like the front light idea. That never occurred to me.

I always pull over into the lane, but I am not living in a large city.

I don't like any flashing light as I have a theory that that hypnotizes drivers making it crazy what they will do.
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