JonBailey

Please help.

I have a Schwinn-branded Discover with stock Schwinn-branded rims marked 700C/622 and these are 24-spoke rims which spokes prone to breaking a lot especially on the deep pothole and cracked roads of Lawton, Oklahoma. The stock tires are Innova brand marked 40-622 700 x 38C.

Not only is riding on these bad streets painful on the tailbone and dangerous if pedalling too fast, I'm sick and tired of having to replace a spoke once a week.
36-spoke replacement wheels should cure this.

The stock 700C rim strips lining these stock double-wall aluminum rims are 12mm wide.

The stock valves are Schrader.

The stock inner tubes are marked: 700 x 35-43c

The replacement 7-speed freewheel that Pacific Cycle sent me is stamped on the hub: Power China and has 12 splines.

Will this Park freewheel tool for Shimano work for my freewheel since most Shimano freewheels (not cassettes) also have 12 splines?

https://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-Fre...ct_top?ie=UTF8


Are these aftermarket wheel sets compatible replacements for my bike? Will the original tires, tubes and rim strips all fit properly?
Will the stock freewheel fit? Will the stock-size 12mm rim strips also fit?

https://www.amazon.com/Sta-Tru-Silve...KE9RYJTQPBJ52T

https://www.amazon.com/Sta-Tru-Relea...EG75RE4A6YZAK8

I just ordered a 25-pack of hard-to-find 12mm x 700C rubber rim strips for close to $30 and it's too late to cancel my order.
I'd like replacement 36-hole wheelsets compatible with the sizes of all other components mounted to the original wheels.

I also have close to $25 invested in spare inner tubes of the stock size.

Bonzo Banana

Sounds like you have two issues going on, weak wheels and an uncomfortable bike. If you are replacing the wheels I would definitely keep to double wall rims, they are stronger, less likely to go out of true and take more abuse. Single wall rims are more likely to break spokes. However double wall rims are less flexy and less comfortable in my experience so you definitely want to go for the largest tyres your tyre clearance will allow and spend time working out the best tyre pressure for your body weight to give the maximum suspension effect with minimal risk of pinch flats. Also maybe change the saddle to one which is more comfortable. Look at how much you are going to spend though just in case it makes more sense to buy a different secondhand bike or even a new bike. If the bike still ends up being really uncomfortable maybe a suspension seatpost is an option.




If you are riding over a rough surface with pot holes remember not to sit on the saddle but get off the saddle and use your own legs and arms as suspension as you hit pot holes if you can't avoid them. In this way it makes it more comfortable for you and less damaging to the bike with reduced risk of damaging spokes.




Power China freewheels are pretty low end to say the least but I honestly don't know how much worse than Shimano freewheels they are. Any freewheel nowadays is a pretty low end component. If I was replacing a wheel from such a bike, I would be looking to replace with a freehub wheel and then buy a 7 speed cassette rather than keep with a freewheel and threaded hub but that is just me. It will strengthen the bike and normally improve shifting as there is less or no wobble with a freehub compared to a freewheel.




You should be able to re-use your rim tape, tubes and tyres without issues.

JonBailey

Thank you, sir.

But still, isn't a 36-hole single-wall rim still going to be much less likely to bust a spoke than a double-wall with only 24 holes? What could be better for the relief of stress on wire spokes than increasing their number by 50% if not doubling their number?

Years ago, 1983-1985, I had a Schwinn World Tourist 5-speed, bought new in 1983, with 36-spoke single-wall chrome steel rims that went hundreds of miles over two-years that never busted a single spoke.

As I'm getting more familiar with these "covered-wagon trails" for city streets in Lawton, Oklahoma, I'm learning to slow down, steer around the holes cleverly and stand off the seat if I have to hit a giant crack. The street pavement is in sectional squares with seams. Maybe for expansion. The road beds are soft and clay and the hard-pouring flash floods of the Tornado Alley coupled with winter freezes does our roads in very badly.

Clyde1820

In my own experience, most "mass market" type bikes don't have well-built wheelsets put onto them.

First step I'd suggest: find a quality wheelbuilder, then get those wheels rebuilt with very strong spokes, good lacing. Done right, it ought to be much more survivable.

Of course, if you've got pothole-laden streets and paths to traverse, frankly, I'd suggest a better wheelset. As suggested above, a good double-wall 36H set, assuming built strong by a quality wheelbuilder, ought to serve you very well, even on such damaging paths.

On one bike I've had: Velocity Dyad 36H, very strong DT Swiss spokes, and 700-47mm Conti Tour Ride tires. Built by a decent shop. Very strong, not a creak or whimper, and very capable over a rougher urban set of roads and paths. (Heavier rider+bike+gear.)

Am considering a mid-1980s vintage relaxed-geometry MTB setup for an urban commuter. Strongly considering the Velocity CliffHanger, No BS or Atlas rim, with suitably strong spokes, built up by a quality wheelbuilder. Ought to be bomb-proof, in such an environment, even if occasionally striking the edge of a chuckhole that I couldn't avoid.

Bonzo Banana

I'm a heavy rider so have taken bicycle components to their limits and damaged many parts. Single wall chrome steel rims could be as strong if not stronger than double wall aluminium rims. Single wall aluminium rims can be quite flexy which can be quite nice from a riding comfort point of view but someone like me can knock them out of true quite easily at least on the rear wheel where most of the weight is. Such flexing gives the spokes a harder life. You can isolate that flexing with thicker tyres. It's difficult to be accurate here because I'm only guessing at typical parts. Stainless steel spokes can be weaker than galvanised steel spokes and there are many variations of spokes. You are definitely correct about more spokes giving extra strength but there are other variables including the rims, lacing pattern, tyres, spoke material etc. You get wheels made with auto-lacing machines which often use larger holes in the rims with eyelets vs handmade. I just thought I'd draw your attention to the single wall rims being a possible weakness that could reduce or even nullify the benefits of a higher spoke count. On mountain bikes you get cheap walmart mountain bikes with 36 spokes on single wall rims vs high end mountain bikes with as few as 20 spokes on strong rims and the 36 spoke wheel could fail pretty much immediately if taken off road at the first minor drop.

JonBailey

I've bought a number of cheap department store bikes over my lifetime and never once has a single spoke broke. They were all the 36-hole type wheels of course.

Stock 24-spoke wheels have no place on department-store grade bicycles as mine since they are inferior to high-end low-spoke-count wheels. The Schwinn-branded Discover of mine has this manufacturer blunder and I found out the hard way. There were a lot of complaints on amazon.com about the Discover model bike I bought from amazon about spoke breakage. One customer there said Pacific Cycle sent him a set of front and rear matching 36-spoke Schwinn wheels when he made a warranty claim about broken spokes so I assumed Pacific Cycle would do the same for me but they didn't. They only sent me a replacement 24-spoke front wheel so I got screwed on this deal. My spoke problems would have been forever solved if they had sent me a pair of matching 36-hole wheels instead.

The 36-hole wheelsets on amazon.com seem to be getting mostly 4 and 5 star reviews. One customer claimed that these cheap replacement wheels have been passed down over three cheap new bicycles. The wheels themselves outlasted three cheap bikes in succession! Another customer is claiming these single-wall aluminum wheels are withstanding a lot of curb jumping without issues.

I am on a tight budget. A set of these wheels will be about $100 with shipping included in the total. This is about the price for a whole cheap new Walmart bicycle. These lower-price replacement wheels might even better quality that what comes stock on department store bikes.

Bonzo Banana

To be honest I've never broken a spoke on any wheel and I'm really heavy but the fact you have and stated poor roads made me think you were more likely to get more broken spokes. I have found single wall rims to be poor quality on cheap bikes easily knocked out of true even 36 spoke wheels. On low cost bikes in stores I've often tested the tension of the spokes by hand and found many loose and not properly tensioned. On a cheap mountain bike I bought from new, I had to re-tension the spokes after a few rides but still found they would easily go out of true. Maybe I'm wrong to assume there is a greater chance of a single wall rim breaking spokes but I have found the quality of double wall rims even cheap double wall rims far superior to cheap single wall rims. I've certainly seen people report broken spokes on cheap bike wheels even those with a high spoke count and I remember those definitely being 700c which are more vulnerable to broken spokes.

csport

Some reading on tire/rim sizing: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html#isoetrto

The wheels are the right size. Do you have quick release or bolt-on wheels?

Outer width of the wheels you linked is 35mm, the rim tape you have may be a bit narrow for them.

Other considerations:

What pressure do you inflate the tires to? Maybe lowering it can help.

What is the weight of the rider + bike? (I am 300# myself). Just to confirm: the problem is only with broken spokes, not the wheels going out of true?

Have you tightened the spokes at all? One of the causes of the spoke breakage is low/non-uniform tension. Normally a mass production bike comes with low spoke tension. OTOH, if the rims are weak, tightening the spokes to appropriate tension may cause the wheels to "taco" under load, resulting in a crash.

JonBailey

I'm 300 pounds myself. The front wheel is quick release and the rear is a solid axle.

I hope I have not wasted $30 on a bag of unusable 12m rim strips unless they can be returned.

I inflate the tires to 60 pounds. The sidewalls say 75 pounds max.
Lower tire pressure increases friction and roll resistance and makes pedalling more difficult
but it's sometimes necessary to ride about a mile on low pressure reseal a goat-head puncture with
the green Slime product in the tubes.

Harder tires with easier pedalling come at the cost of harsher ride, however.

I don't see how those Schwinn 27" ten-speeds of the 1970's, Varsity, Continental, LeTour, etc. with those spaghetti-thin
tires could cut it for one minute on the streets of Lawton, Oklahoma.

Using a steel ruler, the outer width of my stock rims appear to be 24-25 mm at the edge of the rims at the bead area.

This 700 x 25 wheel might even be a better fit for my original Discover bicycle.

https://www.amazon.com/Wheel-WEI-AS2...ct_top?ie=UTF8

hokiefyd 

In this case, I don't think the rim itself is 35mm wide (from your original link). That's very wide...like nearly into fat bike territory. In this case, the wheel is meant for "700x35" tires (or thereabouts), so they've labeled the wheel accordingly. The rim itself is probably 17mm or so wide (inner width, between the beads). I think your 12mm rim strips will be just fine.

Tire and wheel sizing is one of the most frustrating aspects of the bike industry to me, and mostly because we already have a better system (the ERTRO sizing nomenclature, such as 40-622). I wish we'd get away from this "700c" stuff. The wheel labeled as "700x35" is evidence of that. Neither of those numbers actually refers to a measurement on the wheel itself. It's probably more like 17-622, where 17mm is the inner width of the rim and 622mm is the bead seat diameter.

JonBailey

My stock Schwinn wheels have a label on the rim stating: 700C/622. I guess the 622 is the bead measurement.

The stock tires actually have 700 x 38C as well as 40-622 printed on them though my ruler shows about 25 mm for the rim outer width. I don't know what the number 40 means here.

Is Pacific Cycle (Schwinn and Mongoose branded bikes these days) putting oversize tires on their rims for its boxed dept-store bikes?

My ruler measures the stock rim tape to be 12 mm wide.

The wheels at amazon.com advertised as 700 x 25 should be a good fit then.

Bicycle wheel and tire sizes are as confusing as shoe sizes. What does Double E width really mean anyway for men's shoes?

The numbers and specs printed on bike wheels, inner tubes and tires are "encyclopedic" indeed.

csport

We have to accept that the wheels on dept. store bikes are no match for riders like us. 60psi looks good, I use something in that range as well.

The 700x25 wheel you linked will not work since it has OLD (over locknut dimension) = 126mm. This is for old frames. Yours is most likely 135mm (modern "mountain") or (with very low probability) 130mm (modern "road").

Yes, I am probably wrong here. I googled STA735 rims, and online retailers list "outer width=35". That is indeed too much.

Both 38 and 40 are the tire width in mm. These are two slightly different standards in the sense that the tire width is measured on rims of a slightly different width -- hence the difference.

If you can increase the budget, there are some good wheelsets:

Silver Heavy Duty Velocity NoBS 700c 36h Hybrid Wheelset [14363] - $149.00 Velomine.com : Worldwide Bicycle Shop, fixed gear track bike wheelsets campagnolo super record vintage bike -- has Velocity rims. Or you can get a rear wheel only:
https://365cycles.com/collections/wh...ver-dt-factory
https://www.treefortbikes.com/Qualit...-135mm-Shimano

Or this one: Sun Rhyno Lite 40 Spoke 29er MTB Commuter Wheelset 6 BOLT DISC [740429] - $149.00 Velomine.com : Worldwide Bicycle Shop, fixed gear track bike wheelsets campagnolo super record vintage bike

Throw $10 for Velox or similar rim tape, $5 for a spacer to run a 7 speed cassette and $20 for a cassette.

These wheelsets are a step up from the Amazon ones you linked. They are machine built, and you will need to tighten the spokes and possibly stress relieve them.

All this assumes that the rear hub spacing is 135mm and you have a 10mm axle. (Check these when buying a new wheel.) In this case you should be able to convert from bolt-on to QR. Also, cassette hubs are stronger than freewheel hubs.

JonBailey

The 700x25 wheel you linked will not work since it has OLD (over locknut dimension) = 126mm. This is for old frames. Yours is most likely 135mm (modern "mountain") or (with very low probability) 130mm (modern "road").

What is over locknut dimension and how do I measure mine?

csport

Frame spacing: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

JonBailey

OK, I have 135 mm between my rear dropouts.

How about this set of Wally World specials?

https://www.walmart.com/ip/700c-Alum...-NEW/901758723


ALUMINUM ALLOY 700C HYBRID / ROAD BIKE WHEELSET NEW / INCLUDES TIRES + TUBES / SHIPS IN 24HRS

SPECIFICATIONS:Manufacturer: Zhili Sport

Size: 700c/29er (622 x 19) Aluminum rim and hubs

Rim widths: 19.5mm inner, 25mm outer

Rim height: 25mm

Spokes: 36h front / rear

Rim construction: 1-1/2 walled (hybrid between single and double)

Valve drilling: Presta I have inner tubes with Schrader valves, and I like Schrader valves much better. Will they fit the Presta drilling? Do I have to resize the valve holes?

Mass: 1680 grams front / 1760 grams rear with tires

Axle type: quick release

Tires: Kenda Cosmos, 700 x 25, 110psi maxBrake compatibility: Rim brake only Hub spacing: 100mm front, 135mm rear

COMPATIBLE ONLY WITH MULTI-SPEED FREEWHEELS Which I have, a 7-speed with 12 splines.

Condition: New

Includes rims, tires, tubes, QR skewers, and rim strips

NOTES:Wheelset is multi speed freewheel compatible only. It is not compatible with single speed freewheels or cassettes. If you don't know the difference between cassettes and freewheels, and are unsure of what you have, please research the topic online prior to purchasing this wheelset. All weights and measures are approximate 700c Aluminum Road Bike Wheelset Freewheel Compatible Front+Rear + 25c Tires NEW

hokiefyd 

Yes, 622(mm) is the bead seat diameter on the wheels. The original specification for these, like 100 years ago, was the wheel and tire together was 700mm in diameter. This is where the "700" comes from. The original specification for "700c" included a 622mm wheel with a 38mm (or so) tire. 622mm + 38mm on the bottom + 38mm on the top = 698mm (about 700). Over time, the 622mm wheel came into common use, and they came up with a bunch of different tire widths to fit that. So you can have a 25mm wide tire (25-622), a 35mm tire (35-622), a 45mm wide tire (45-622), etc. The ERTRO designation (35-622, etc) is very descriptive, because it tells you the width of the tire and the wheel on which it fits. "700c" in this case (as tires are often labeled) is no longer accurate. A 25-622 (which might also be labeled "700x25"), is really only about 672mm tall, and a 45-622 tire ("700x45") is really about 712mm tall. Despite its inaccuracy, labels such as "700c" continue to persist in the bicycling industry, probably due mostly to tradition.

Regarding your question about Schrader vs. Presta, you will have to drill a rim designed for Presta valves if you want to use Schrader valves. It's not difficult -- I've done it before many times. You drill from the outside in, and it helps to have a few layers of masking tape over the top of the valve hole, to help prevent chip-out or galling on the top (finished) side of the valve hole. You may still need to clean it up with a light file after you're done. Make sure to empty the wheel, if it's a double-walled rim, of any aluminum filings after drilling, so they don't get trapped and either make noise (it happens) or abrade and puncture the tube (it happens).

JonBailey

Instead of a file, I might just use a large drill bit to chamfer the hole edges by hand for neat appearance.The metal chips from drilling should then be flushed out of the wheel thoroughly with water under pressure or maybe the tool on a vacuum cleaner might work better?

But here is what I will probably do for now to save money:

Since most of my spoke breakage occurs on the real wheel, I will use this Schwinn-branded wheel that Pacific Cycle sent me for now when I made a warranty claim a year ago for a warped solid rear axle. I got the wheel for free. I had been trying to sell the wheel with no luck anyway. Until I left Boise, ID, the stock 24-spoke wheels were holding up pretty well: the streets and bikeways are much smoother there. It is black and will mismatch the front, however. I have just contacted Pacific Cycle to see if they have a matching wheel for the front they can give me or sell me if the price is right, I'm still waiting for a reply:

hokiefyd 

Sure, that wheel should work great!

You may be able to chamfer the hole by hand from the top side with a large bit. I think you'd need more pressure and speed than you could generate by hand to get a good chamfer, but it may be possible. I've drilled two sets of wheels, and I've found that the hole comes out pretty clean -- there's usually just one little lip or ridge at the top where one side of the aluminum flared up a bit. I then will remove all the tape and then re-tape the hole (to get clean tape on it) and then lightly work the file on the high spot. The new tape prevents file marks on the rim where you don't want them, but you can still easily file through the tape to get to the high spot you're looking to knock down. That's usually enough -- since you're drilling from the bottom of the rim (which is "inside" once the tire is mounted), that side is generally pretty clean and doesn't need any hand work.

Any way you can get the chips out is fine. That only applies to true double-walled rims, by the way. Shavings just fall away from a single-wall rim fine. For double-walled ones, I turn the wheel so the valve hole is at the bottom and then shake and tap it for a minute or so. Most of the shavings come out right way, but working the wheel around a bit and tapping/shaking it will work them all out. You could use water or air as well (I guess I'd probably recommend air if you had it). I've never use anything beyond the shaker method.

JonBailey

The Pacific Cycle wheel I already have pictured above is drilled for Schrader anyway, so no worry.

Dept. store bikes pretty much use Schrader valves universally. It's the American standard in car-compatible tire valves.

Schrader has always worked fine by me and it's much easier to get the green Slime in.

I'll see if I can get a matching front wheel from Pacific Cycle for a song.

If not, I'll have to save my money up for a decent matching pair of 36-hole wheels that are truly a good fit.