tiger1964 

I fear today might be 2017's last cycling day unless we get another warm spell, but I got in a 33-mile ride yesterday with a regional club (plus another 10 miles to/from the starting point). 12 miles from the finish, a group of four broke off the front and I went after them, and hung on well enough until they dropped me on the last, heartbreaker, hill.

Got to the parking lot +/- 1 minute after the leaders, and waited for the rest to catch up. One of the four leaders looked over my bike, I guess he's a good ten years younger than me, and asked "What kind of derailleur is that?" I had to explain what a Nuovo Record was... really? And, yeah, I had one of the very few non-CF bikes on the ride yesterday. Different generation.

steelbikeguy

It is fun to see what sort of reaction a vintage bike will generate when in a group of modern bikes. There are a lot of positive comments, as well as the random "how does it shift?". I think the toe clips and leather shoes with slotted cleats cause the most confusion, though.

It's always fun to have a bike that's different and is a bit of a conversation piece, though!


Steve in Peoria

The Golden Boy 

I had a kid compliment my bike when I was at the gas station yesterday. I was riding the 620.

PilotFishBob 

All the local rides here I participate in I do on any one of my vintage bikes along with a friend who caught the bug from me. I occasionally get a comment or question from new riders or when I show up with something new, but most are used to it.

John E

As the owner of a 1960 GS and 1980 NR and 980 derailleurs, I have to admit we would all be better off with slant planographs, whether period-correct or more modern, but an old school straight parallelogram just looks right on an older road bike. (I was an early adopter of slant plano with my 1971 Nishiki Competition, and I have always admired the design.)

jimmuller 

@tiger1964, I bet your bike has "reach-down switchers" too. (There is a previous thread with that title.)

FWIW, I have NR derailleurs on two bikes, both with long Rally-style cages. They both work just fine, not quite up to the precision level of the Cyclone but acceptably functional. Soon I will attempt to fit a short-cage NR to another bike. If chain capacity isn't an issue I expect it will work just fine.

qcpmsame 

No question that the slant parallelogram type derailleurs are smoother and more efficient in their shifting, but its self satisfying to nail each shift when on a friction shifting, straight derailleur bicycle. Sew-ups are another thing that stumps some younger riders, one of our LBS owners likes to give me a hard time about riding on them, for both bikes. I don't tell them I patch my sew ups though, that would just push them over the edge probably.

But, taking the easy way out isn't nearly as gratifying to me. Developing skills and getting things down pat just seems the right way if doing things to my way of thinking.

Each time someone asks me about my C&V rides, I will fill them in on the various components, if they are interested. If they get. glazed over look in their eyes its time to just ride along.

Bill

John E

This thread is starting to remind me of one of my grad students who had studied abroad with a small group of fellow Americans. Since he was the only one who knew how to use a clutch pedal, he ended up doing all of the driving that year.

I do admit that downshifting a GS or NR by Frank Berto's overshift-and-return method is part of the part of the experience of riding a bike of that era. I can't bring myself to look for a Simplex Pristige for my strictly utilitarian UO-8, however -- I'll stick with the SunTour ratchet barcons and the Cyclone II.

52telecaster

i find as it gets dark earlier and a little chilly, more people comment about our being on bikes. at the grocery store i get comments almost every time if its dark out.

Wildwood 

Comments and questions from newer cyclists is all part of the vintage experience.
It's enjoyable when the person asking the question listens to a short reply.
It's occasionally annoying when the person asking the question has a hidden agenda, revealed by their quick retorts, such as:
Older bikes aren't really safe on a fast group ride.
Do those brakes stop you well enough?
How do you shift safely?
I wouldn't ride a bike that diverts my eyes from the road ahead.
Looks worn out.

But when you carry a spare tubular tire figure 8'd & around your shoulders you usually scare off all but those who are authentically vintage experienced. hehehe!

Jon T

Friction shifting is like playing the trombone. You just know where it is.
Jon

Vefer

"You mean you have to take your hands Off the handlebars to shift?" One of my favorite comments!

oldschoolbike

I got this one last week, regarding my 1987 vintage road bike that I explained had been ridden steadily all that time (30 years): "I'll bet you paid a lot of mechanic's bills over the years!"

Not a penny, actually. Except for setting headset and hub cups (neither have been needed), it's all user-serviceable. To be fair, that's probably not true of the hubs and Ergo levers of my new bike.

alikws

Persons who judge experience and skills by dress and equipment are derailed by vintage equipment, and often easier to talk to then they would otherwise be. I had an interesting talk with a rider with electric shifting and space age telemetry while I was riding hardware and dressed right for the late 30's. That is a big appeal to the vintage world.

PilotFishBob 

I've rebuilt Ergos, not too bad actually. But modern hubs... Well, never tried on those but have yet to have issues with the ones I have so no incentive as of yet...

qcpmsame 

This has to be the best description of friction shifting I have come across. Kudos @Jon T

tiger1964 

Oh, yes, down-tube shifters and, like the steel frame, mine was the only bike there so equipped. On the cage swap, oddly, I've recently wondered what a Rally with a short cage might be like; would it shift any better than a NR? Make one up out of leftover parts form the NR/long-cage build.

If I ride with any of my old friends I have to listen to this, much less an organized gout ride. Sheesh. I've wrecked enough times -- never because of inadequate brakes.

Very interesting analogy!

El Chaba

I was out for a ride this past summer when I came up on a 20-something triathlete. He looked over at the ca.1982 Peugeot that I was on that evening and said, "That bike is old"....I replied, "Everything you see here is old"...We then had quite the little ride for the next 8 miles to the town limit sign.
Note: I have nothing against modern equipment, but it is the RIDER and not the equipment that makes it go...and it is the rider's job to know how to use the equipment.

T-Mar

If you want a lot of dumbfounded looks, try turning up at an ATB ride with a completely rigid C&V model, preferably with bull moose handlebars.

El Chaba

WRT to slant vs. straight parallelogram derailleurs....For friction shifting, a straight parallelogram derailleur is easily the equivalent of a slant model on gear ratios ending is +/- 21 teeth or so. On these close ratios something like a Nuovo Record or Simplex Super LJ dances across the cogs. Things get different on wider ratios. A forgotten benefit of a straight parallelogram derailleur is the ease of changing a rear wheel quickly. This comes into play in racing and was a huge reason why they were favored by pros. You can lose a race with a slow wheel change, but you are not likely to with a slightly slower shift

Salamandrine 

Yep, I was going to mention something too. With typical racer gears, say 13-21, I never noticed any real difference in shifting between nuovo record and a slant parallelogram Suntour. As you say, wheel changes are easier. Clearly an advantage for pros. Frankly, that was not much of a factor in amateur racing BITD, but handy nonetheless. Another thing was NR were very rugged. They tend not to get destroyed in crashes, which happened frequently in jr's racing.

tiger1964 

For my next project, and I need to do a topic on it including photos, I want to use one of my Simplex 543's. THAT should raise some eyebrows!

On the Palo Alto I'm riding most right no, the NR is dealing with 14-28 and it's maxxed out. I think I bought too wide a replacement freewheel. Shifting is OK but not thrilling.

jimmuller 

Most of us, or I at least, choose a FW based on the gearing required by the terrain, then choose the RD that works!

As for the Rally, as I understand them never having seen one in person, the horizontal parallelogram version really isn't slant-parallelogram at all. As for it working well, some would say no. I would say after riding a fair amount on converted NRs that it works well but there are considerations to consider. The Rally, Crane GS, and SXn10GT derailleurs all work on the same principle. The cage pivot and the two pulley axes form an inverted L. When you shift to a larger sprocket the tension pulley is pulled forward which causes the guide pulley to drop. Shifting to a smaller sprocket releases chain which allows the tension pulley to move backward and the guide pulley to move up. This helps the guide pulley's vertical position track the lower edge of the active and adjacent sprockets. The ideal ratio of the arms from cage pivot to pulleys is about 3 (pi). In practice it needn't be precise and there is a reason for it to be slightly less than theoretical. IIRC, the Vx-S has a similar effect but just not so much.

The problem with this technique is that shifting in front also moves the pulleys. You can adjust the at-rest vertical position of the guide pulley by tweaking your chain length, but you must do so on the small chainring. Shifting to the big ring then moves the pulley downward into a lower-than-ideal position. So rear shifts while on the big ring are never as precise as shifts while on the small ring, and the bigger the front shift jump the greater the discrepancy in shifting precision. So as a compromise you could use an arm ratio which isn't as great as the theoretical pi (but with a manufactured cage you are stuck with whatever they built it to be). And you can rig your gearing as half-step crossover so the front shifts are smaller. As a point of reference re compromising, the Suntour slant angle was never adjustable. Its fixed angle really didn't track the sprocket edges perfectly except for one set of ratios. But it worked well anyway, proving that it needn't be perfect to be effective.

After all that discussion... My long-cage NRs work well though not up to Cyclone standards. Both are half-step, with cranks 47-42 and 6-spd FW 14-34, IIRC. The choice of chainring makes a subtle difference. The SX410GT on our tandem works very well indeed over a 14-28 5-spd FW with any ring of our 1-1/2-step triple crank, but then the SX410GT is a double-spring derailleur so the cage movement isn't just from the cage pivoting.

JohnDThompson 

You're correct; the 1st generation Rally is not a slant parallelogram like SunTour, but rather a dropped parallelogram like the Shimano Crane GS or Simplex SX610. The sprung upper pivot means that it will shift better than, say a 2nd generation Rally or Nuovo Record long cage conversion, but not quite as nice as the SunTour units. The final generation Rally came out after SunTour's patent on the slant parallelogram expired and did incorporate that design feature as well as retaining the sprung upper pivot (as do the majority of modern derailleurs to this day). It's the best shifting Rally of the lot, but fairly rare and pricey.

RandolphCarter

I did exactly this a few weeks ago.

I took this thing:



(It's a 1983 Ross Force One)

On the trails here:



(The Luther Forest trails in the tech park, Malta, NY)

I had a blast.

I also confirmed that I'm fat, old, and out of shape.

My buddy Gordon threw together a quick group ride, and I show up with a bike from Reagan's first term. They were all on $$$ carbon fiber rockets. I got some good natured ribbing in the parking lot at the trailhead - several other groups were having an impromptu cookout, looked at my bike, and a wiseguy asked me where the hell the rest of my tires were. I pointed out that my bike was 10 years older than he was and that I wasn't 'missing' any 4 inch wide tires at all.

My Ross is a great beer run bike, but I think I'm going to retire it from active MTB duty. They all were able to carry a lot more speed over obstacles and through turns than I could.