metalheart44

All luddites, please cover your ears and close your eyes lest you be struck by the future ... the rest may find this amusing

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[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #F5F5FF"]Charles Shimano Sequential Video // Fairwheel

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Mountain Mitch

I can see it if there are medical issues (arthritis or ?) but for me part of the biking experience is that it is purely mechanical - no motors or engines involved - so I don't think I'll ever bother with it.

And looking at some of the earlier posts, it seems to me that the next great 'must have' will be automatic shifters. I don't even like driving an automatic car!

Biker395 

OK, I peeked.

Meh.

So what happens if I want to put up with a little cross-chaining to get some semblance of half-step gearing (I do that occasionally)? Does that system permit that option?

Kinda reminds me of what of the more irritating thing about modern automobiles ... you cant get air directed to the defrosting ducts without turning the air conditioning on. They do it automatically for you, probably because so many people are too clueless to know that the A/C helps and is useful in really difficult conditions. But of course, once you use the A/C for defrosting, you'd better keep it on, or the moisture on the condenser will make matters worse.

There is an old saw in engineering ... make something only a fool can use, and only a fool will want to use it. Not always true, of course ... but there is some truth to it. Automatically making choices for me without a manual option falls into that category for me.

CraigB

Not in *my* future. I just took a job that I hope will be my last, even though it only pays 55% of the last one I had that was in my field. My wife let me know this means I've bought my last bike (or set of components, for that matter).

Retro Grouch 

I used to say that I didn't want any app on my phone that didn't start with me saying "Hello." Then Mrs. Grouch forced a phone on me that I could text with and now texting is my communication method of choice.

on the path

I am totally down with electronic shifting. It may not be in my budget for a long time, if indeed it ever is. All you luddites, traditionalists, whatever, if you are shifting at all you are using advanced bicycle technology. Tell me you are riding fixed gear exclusively, and you will make a better case for yourself..

Frankfast

I'm retiring in two weeks. I'm stuck with what I've got. And yes, one of them is fixed gear.

Wogster

I expect as is typical with electronics, the first generation is $5,000 the next generation is $500, the third generation is $50 and the forth generation is $5..... At that point the old technology simply fades into history......

CraigB

If you follow that line of reasoning, riding any kind of bicycle at all is verboten.

Biker395 

I'm also one of those nuts who prefers to drive a car with a manual gearshift. I also prefer using ergonomic controls that I can distinguish by feel instead of the touch screen BS so predominant now.

Swiftly going the way of the dinosaur, I guess.

chasm54

So do I. So do the vast majority of Europeans.

But the analogy isn't sound. Di2 as it currently stands doesn't change gear automatically for you, it merely uses electronics to implement your manual input. More like the paddle systems on race cars. The driver chooses when to make the change, he just no longer has to operate a clutch.

Biker395 

I agree ... mostly. I was referring more to the design where both the front and back derailleur choice is made for the user.

I say "mostly" because there are things you can do with a manual transmission that cannot be done with an automatic (and of course, vice versa). Push starting, for example. I've driven paddle actuated transmissions and they honestly don't appeal to me. Most would consider the automatic xmission superior ... especially the new ones. They're actually capable of better gasoline mileage, particularly the CVT transmissions (likely coming in all cars to meet CAFE requirements), and don't require clutch replacement for the life of the car.

I guess the point really was that just because something is new or uses new technology, doesn't mean it's better. And even if it's better for most, it doesn't mean it's better for everyone. The touch screen interface on new cars is a good example. It's common because it's a cheap way to implement a lot of features, and design changes during development are easier ... not because the end product is better. In a lot of important respects (to me, ergonomics, which are a safety issue), it's worse.

Back on point, electromechanical shifting is a "meh" to me. I don't oppose it ... I just see it as a complex answer to a question that wasn't asked. Changing out cables and fiddling with barrel adjusters now and again has never troubled me. Then again, I know people for whom indexed shifting was a game-changer, so what do I know? lol

Kinda funny I'd find myself with these kind of opinions ... new technology is my business. You'd think I'd be more of a proponent of technology or technology's sake.

Frankfast

There's a difference from the mechanics perpective, not so much from the rider. Replacing little black boxes might not seem attractive (not to mention expensive) to the DIY mechanic.

waynesulak

I saw a request for this type of Di2 system for Half-step gearing that would automatically shift in sequential order with both the front and rear shifting together every other gear combination. That would be a great demonstration of Di2's power but I don't know if it would be fun to ride.

I would like to ride the system shown on our tandem with all the shifts under power to see how it does. Might be just what we would like because of our (lack of) power to weight ratio we shift at least 50% more than I do on my single.

Still another electronic system with more wires and another battery might be a pain. I can continue to ride when my Garmin dies but shifting is pretty important. Those with multiple bikes have to remember that batteries die when not used for extended periods. Picked up my nice drill driver the other day and the really big battery was stone dead and the spare battery as well. They charged up nicely and work fine .....after an hour in the charger.

Biker395 

See there .. on a digital electromechanical system, that sort of a thing is easier to implement, as much of it can be done in software. It's also possible that a Di system could be used with 10 or 11+ speeds, merely by uploading new software/firmware or setting a flag. The same technology is probably more usable with continuously variable designs too, so it is a bit of a pathfinder for that.

To be honest, I think that's the reason for the push. It makes inter compatibility issues much easier to resolve.

John_V 

At 66, by the time they come down to an affordable price, I'll be too old to ride a road bike.

waynesulak

Electronic shifting does open new possibilities however I would guess Shimano and others will do everything they can to prevent adapting older shifters and derailleurs to new systems. They are in the business of selling new components and I don't think they are planning on undercutting their own sales. That was one advantage of Shimano changing a perfectly good brake pull ratio with the newer shifters. Helps sell brakes calipers.

It will be pretty easy to prevent any forward compatibility. An example is Garmn's maps. They are tied to a device and you buy an new device then you have to buy new maps from Garmin.

There will be people out there than can hack the systems but I do not expect wide distribution of upgradable products. Campy allowed the easy conversion of 9 speed shifters to 10 speed by changing one part. They have not made that mistake again. They actually went to other direction and from what I hear the Campy 11s cannot be repaired and are now disposable like Shimano. We can hope that some niche after market vendors will pop up selling replacement memory chips that are programmed for the desired conversion.

It appears to be good business on their part. Most people don't buy on adaptability or repairability.

Rowan

The technology for automatic shifting (as opposed to electronically assisted shifting) has been around for a decade or more. But I think Shimano has been concentrating on development with internally geared hubs and the shifts are based on no input from the rider other than the pedalling effort detecting through the system.

However, it only has been in the past few years that bikes have become available with the system, and those have only a limited gear range.

Here is a page from the Western Australian government bike site that discusses the matter:

https://www.transport.wa.gov.au/media..._autobikes.pdf

Bikeradar got quite excited about the Alfine hub going to electronic shifting, but it's not automatic:

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/articl...ictures-33229/

And there is this hybrid system developed in the UK for smartphone users:

https://www.gizmag.com/automatic-gear...icycles/24956/

I think much of the development has a way to go to mature enough to be able to sustain extended use in the field. One of the issues, I gather, is how to override the system should the batteries fail and the rider is miles from nowhere.

As to shifting both front and rear ders at the same time, I am not sure it is electronic technology that is the hurdle.

Chain tension (linked with increased chain wear) might have a role here. I can get away with using my manual levers to double shift most times, but I know to slightly slacken the chain tension through the pedals enough to make the shift successful.

I don't know how it goes with Di2, and maybe some users can give us some feedback on how the shifts go when accelerating hard and keeping huge pressure on the chain. Judging from what I have seen on the Grand Tours in the past two seasons, the system sometimes fails under pressure. I'd be particularly interested n feedback on front der shifts down to the smaller ring when climbing.

Rowan

I might just add that the reason why full automatic electronic shifting on bikes has not gone the full course in development may be the rise of electric-assist bicycles, the prevalence of which in the marketplace has become quite strong and are likely more suited to the target market automatic shifting might have attracted.

TiHabanero

Remember, these are not just simple electomechanical systems with servo to actuate, they have brains, ie, chip sets. Therein lies the Achilles heel. At some point there will be problems, just like pure mechanical systems, but the electrical problems will not be cheap to fix.

Which brings to mind, how many Shimano Flight Deck computers are still able to function with daily use? I remember customers destroying wiring harnesses just by changing handlebar tape.

As was said before, electronic shifting is solving a problem that never existed, but is creating new problems for the future!

Hey, will there be firmware updates needed sometime?

metalheart44

It was partly tongue in cheek that I embedded the video, but it does show what some folks are doing to adapt the system.

On my Di2 , I often do almost simultaneous shifts of the front derailleur (big to small ring) and the rear derailleur (down a cog or two) when climbing and the chain is under load. Works just fine and it can be done very quickly so there is almost no loss of momentum. I am sure the same can be done with a well tuned mechanical system, but it works just fine to make a quick simultaneous front/rear shift under load on a hill. Don't feel I need the auto-adjust for my riding style, but the Di2 adds to my riding experience since I could care less about the mechanics of it all. I can focus on the riding experience and not one more mechanical thing in my life.

zonatandem

Tested Di2 on our tandem last year.
Worked/shifted faultlessly for about 1,300+ miles.
However the red idiot light that was to inform it needed recharging never did work. Front derailleur quit shifting, which indicated it needed recharging.
Recharged it fully. In another 300 miles had several issues with the system. Then it quit shifting without warning in the middle of a tough hill climb.
Great when it was working; lousy when it quit!
Ditched the Di2 and back to 9 speed barcons.

ModeratedUser150120149

Balderdash! I was older than you before I started riding a road bike. You've lots of road bike years yet.

JimF22003

It just works

I've shifted up/down/separately/simultaneously under all conditions of spinning, "sprinting" (for me), sitting while climbing, standing while climbing etc. It just works.

I used to spend a lot of time strategizing how to shift under various conditions. That can be enjoyable in itself, which I understand. Now I don't really think about what kind of shifting is "bad" or dangerous or likely to make me miss a shift or drop a chain or whatever.

Rowan

Thanks for that feedback, Jim. It just confirmed my desire to acquire a groupset sometime. I have plans for a TT/tri bike for triathlons in the next 12 months, and that may be a suitable platform for it.