Campy out of spec, making it work
#1
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Campy out of spec, making it work
Campy Chorus 10 speed 12x30 with an 11 speed 50/34 crank. No other brands mixed in.
1. In the cross little little cross chain, the line is far enough off that it tries to shift into the big ring. The next up is noisy but doesnt force a shift. Per Campy, the UT crank will work up to 68.8mm. I can add up to .8mm of spacers on the drive side cup. Since .5 is all that's readily available, that's probably all I'll move it. Probably won't correct the problem but will reduce it. Due to the construction of the spider on the crank, it would not be possible to shim the rings out.
2. In granny, 34 x 30, there is a rub from the pulley to the cog. Campy has no b-screw. The tension screw it does have, paradoxically increases rub when tightened. Shortening the chain alleviates the problem but is so short that an accidental big/big will lock the chain and do who knows what to the derailleur and chain.
So for proper chain length I need to do something.
A wolf link would work but is dramatic overkill. I only need an eighth of an inch, maybe less. I shoved a thin piece of metal to space out the deraileur from the frame, it works. So I'm thinking I'll kludge one.
So yes, getting a new medium cage rear derailleur and getting a different compact crank that has a little more play in the chainline would be everyone's favorite answer.
Let's pretend that the bike is great most of the time and a couple things will make it better. Am I on the right track?
I find sometimes my mind wanders one direction and it's sometimes helpful to ask others. So what would you do?
1. In the cross little little cross chain, the line is far enough off that it tries to shift into the big ring. The next up is noisy but doesnt force a shift. Per Campy, the UT crank will work up to 68.8mm. I can add up to .8mm of spacers on the drive side cup. Since .5 is all that's readily available, that's probably all I'll move it. Probably won't correct the problem but will reduce it. Due to the construction of the spider on the crank, it would not be possible to shim the rings out.
2. In granny, 34 x 30, there is a rub from the pulley to the cog. Campy has no b-screw. The tension screw it does have, paradoxically increases rub when tightened. Shortening the chain alleviates the problem but is so short that an accidental big/big will lock the chain and do who knows what to the derailleur and chain.
So for proper chain length I need to do something.
A wolf link would work but is dramatic overkill. I only need an eighth of an inch, maybe less. I shoved a thin piece of metal to space out the deraileur from the frame, it works. So I'm thinking I'll kludge one.
So yes, getting a new medium cage rear derailleur and getting a different compact crank that has a little more play in the chainline would be everyone's favorite answer.
Let's pretend that the bike is great most of the time and a couple things will make it better. Am I on the right track?
I find sometimes my mind wanders one direction and it's sometimes helpful to ask others. So what would you do?
#2
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1. In the cross little little cross chain, the line is far enough off that it tries to shift into the big ring. The next up is noisy but doesnt force a shift
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#4
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I've often wondered whether anything larger than my 13-26 would work on a standard Chorus 10. I also have 50/34 UT in the front except an older 10sp version. I ride frequently enough in the 50/26 combo and would wonder whether 50/29 would work. There is so rarely a hill that I encounter that needs to go to the small front ring.
I'm not sure where the spacer goes on your crank. Is that at the frame so the BB cup protrudes a little more on the drive side?
I'm not sure where the spacer goes on your crank. Is that at the frame so the BB cup protrudes a little more on the drive side?
#5
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I've often wondered whether anything larger than my 13-26 would work on a standard Chorus 10. I also have 50/34 UT in the front except an older 10sp version. I ride frequently enough in the 50/26 combo and would wonder whether 50/29 would work. There is so rarely a hill that I encounter that needs to go to the small front ring.
I'm not sure where the spacer goes on your crank. Is that at the frame so the BB cup protrudes a little more on the drive side?
I'm not sure where the spacer goes on your crank. Is that at the frame so the BB cup protrudes a little more on the drive side?
Yes, move the drive side cup .5mm out.
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the Chorus driveside cup is flanged - you’ll need a spacer to go between the flange and the BB cup (actually you probably don’t if you unscrew the DS cup ~3/4mm, torque down the NDS cup, then torque the DS cup - but there’ll be a gap around the flange)
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This is a basic misunderstanding of Campagnolo Ultratorque cups. They are totally independent of each other with no sleeve in between. If you untorque the driveside cup, the non driveside cup will already be fully seated, you will not be able to tighten it further. The driveside cup will go back to its original position when you tighten it back up
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This is a basic misunderstanding of Campagnolo Ultratorque cups. They are totally independent of each other with no sleeve in between. If you untorque the driveside cup, the non driveside cup will already be fully seated, you will not be able to tighten it further. The driveside cup will go back to its original position when you tighten it back up
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As someone who has admired Campagnolo's products for 50 years or more, it's slightly upsetting to see a Campagnolo drivetrain referred to as "out of spec" when it's being asked to accommodate a gear range that it wasn't designed for.
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I would be a little worried about moving the driveside cup out even by only .5 mm. Perhaps an 11 speed chain might work as an alternative. Does your bike have short chainstays? this can exacerbate this sort of problem. I have a similar setup: Chorus 10 speed drivetrain, 12-29 cassette with an 11 speed 50-34 crank. I never expected that my 12-34 combination would work very well. It works, sort of but the large chainring rubs against the chain. However, my bike has fairly long chainstays and adjustable dropouts set as far back as possible. Short chainstays can make a difference for the worse. Compact cranksets have a bigger difference between large and small chainrings than standard 53-39 setups. When I was running a 52-39 crank I could use all cogs in back using both rings
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Whether it is 10 speed or 11 speed, Ultra Torque cups are the same. My first Ultra Torque cranks were designed for 10 speed drivetrains. The cups remain the same for both
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Don't run the 34 chainring and the #1 cog, it isn't designed to do that and it isn't as mechanically efficient as the 50t ring and the #8 cog. Campy UT cranks are connected with a hirth joint (as you know). No way in the world would I use a spacer that will decrease engagement. Whether Campy says it's ok or not.
It is what it is, no little little and no big big. For the record I run the exact same set up on half a dozen vintage steel bikes.
I get it, you want one tooth changes that the #1 -3 cogs offer. But with a 16 tooth difference between the small and large chainrings you'll need to learn to spin a smaller gear faster (using the 50t ring) or a bigger gear slower (cadence wise).
It is what it is, no little little and no big big. For the record I run the exact same set up on half a dozen vintage steel bikes.
I get it, you want one tooth changes that the #1 -3 cogs offer. But with a 16 tooth difference between the small and large chainrings you'll need to learn to spin a smaller gear faster (using the 50t ring) or a bigger gear slower (cadence wise).
#16
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Originally Posted by nomadmax
Don't run the 34 chainring and the #1 cog, it isn't designed to do that and it isn't as mechanically efficient as the 50t ring and the #8 cog. Campy UT cranks are connected with a hirth joint (as you know). No way in the world would I use a spacer that will decrease engagement. Whether Campy says it's ok or not.
It is what it is, no little little and no big big. For the record I run the exact same set up on half a dozen vintage steel bikes.
I get it, you want one tooth changes that the #1 -3 cogs offer. But with a 16 tooth difference between the small and large chainrings you'll need to learn to spin a smaller gear faster (using the 50t ring) or a bigger gear slower (cadence wise).
It is what it is, no little little and no big big. For the record I run the exact same set up on half a dozen vintage steel bikes.
I get it, you want one tooth changes that the #1 -3 cogs offer. But with a 16 tooth difference between the small and large chainrings you'll need to learn to spin a smaller gear faster (using the 50t ring) or a bigger gear slower (cadence wise).
And if anybody ever needs it, I have the bearing extractor and the cup tool and a long 8mm 3/8" drive allen bit.
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#17
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A bearing puller rented from the auto store works if you're careful. The old bearing can be used along with a piece of PVC and a rubber mallet to put new one back on.
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Campy Chorus 10 speed 12x30 with an 11 speed 50/34 crank. No other brands mixed in.
1. In the cross little little cross chain, the line is far enough off that it tries to shift into the big ring. The next up is noisy but doesnt force a shift. Per Campy, the UT crank will work up to 68.8mm. I can add up to .8mm of spacers on the drive side cup. Since .5 is all that's readily available, that's probably all I'll move it. Probably won't correct the problem but will reduce it. Due to the construction of the spider on the crank, it would not be possible to shim the rings out.
1. In the cross little little cross chain, the line is far enough off that it tries to shift into the big ring. The next up is noisy but doesnt force a shift. Per Campy, the UT crank will work up to 68.8mm. I can add up to .8mm of spacers on the drive side cup. Since .5 is all that's readily available, that's probably all I'll move it. Probably won't correct the problem but will reduce it. Due to the construction of the spider on the crank, it would not be possible to shim the rings out.
Wheels Manufacturing, Origin 8, and LeTour all make 0.5mm shims that provide clearance for a chain made for one cog less - 9 speed chain on 10 speed crank, 10 speed chain on 11 speed crank, etc. Campagnolo briefly did too during the short 9-10 speed transition.
Alternatively you could run 11 speed chains; although one set of shims will cost less and not render your chain stockpile obsolete.
Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 07-28-20 at 08:58 PM.
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Chorus/Record attach the pivot with a bolt you can't lose like the lower gruppo clip.
I'd disassemble it and see if that's the case.
No idea if they ever did the same thing with the upper pivot - I never had to mess with one.
Otherwise don't exceed Campagnolo's derailleur limits.
10 speed official derailleur capacity limits were:
Short - 55mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for standard/compact doubles and all cogs but 13-29. 27T wrap. Or 30T of wrap (2010 OEM manual). 26T (2010 OEM manual) or 27T largest cog. 16 minimum to maximum sprocket difference (which the observant reader will note might get to 13 + 16 = 29 if you don't run out of wrap first, perhaps in situations like 50-39 rings not on Campagnolo's menu)
Medium - 72.5mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for standard/compact doubles and all cogs plus triple cranks with all cogs but 13-29. 30T wrap. Or 32T of wrap (2010 OEM manual). 29T largest cog. 16 minimum to maximum sprocket difference.
Long - 89mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for triple cranks and all cogs. 38 (2010 OEM manual) or 39T wrap. 29T largest cog. 22 minimum to maximum sprocket difference. Obviously with the specified 11 minimum starting cog and a 22 range you'd end up with a 33 large which is beyond 29T.
The 8/9 speed Racing-T derailleur was a medium which I measured at 75mm between jockey wheel axles.
Personally, I'd pair a smaller cassette with a triple crank and NOS 2006 Record Titanium derailleurs. You can have one tooth jumps to the 19 cog, more speed before shifting to your big ring, and a lower gear for mountains. Chorus 10 speed ergo levers will all run a triple using 6 or 7 out of 12 positions.
Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 07-28-20 at 09:16 PM.
#21
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For that matter, look at how few of us are responding! We are of the few Campy users here,
#22
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Some Campagnolo derailleurs have two positions for the lower pivot spring so you can have more adjustment range than the tension screw provides.
Chorus/Record attach the pivot with a bolt you can't lose like the lower gruppo clip.
I'd disassemble it and see if that's the case.
No idea if they ever did the same thing with the upper pivot - I never had to mess with one.
Otherwise don't exceed Campagnolo's derailleur limits.
10 speed official derailleur capacity limits were:
Short - 55mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for standard/compact doubles and all cogs but 13-29. 27T wrap. Or 30T of wrap (2010 OEM manual). 26T (2010 OEM manual) or 27T largest cog. 16 minimum to maximum sprocket difference (which the observant reader will note might get to 13 + 16 = 29 if you don't run out of wrap first, perhaps in situations like 50-39 rings not on Campagnolo's menu)
Medium - 72.5mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for standard/compact doubles and all cogs plus triple cranks with all cogs but 13-29. 30T wrap. Or 32T of wrap (2010 OEM manual). 29T largest cog. 16 minimum to maximum sprocket difference.
Long - 89mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for triple cranks and all cogs. 38 (2010 OEM manual) or 39T wrap. 29T largest cog. 22 minimum to maximum sprocket difference. Obviously with the specified 11 minimum starting cog and a 22 range you'd end up with a 33 large which is beyond 29T.
The 8/9 speed Racing-T derailleur was a medium which I measured at 75mm between jockey wheel axles.
Personally, I'd pair a smaller cassette with a triple crank and NOS 2006 Record Titanium derailleurs. You can have one tooth jumps to the 19 cog, more speed before shifting to your big ring, and a lower gear for mountains. Chorus 10 speed ergo levers will all run a triple using 6 or 7 out of 12 positions.
Chorus/Record attach the pivot with a bolt you can't lose like the lower gruppo clip.
I'd disassemble it and see if that's the case.
No idea if they ever did the same thing with the upper pivot - I never had to mess with one.
Otherwise don't exceed Campagnolo's derailleur limits.
10 speed official derailleur capacity limits were:
Short - 55mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for standard/compact doubles and all cogs but 13-29. 27T wrap. Or 30T of wrap (2010 OEM manual). 26T (2010 OEM manual) or 27T largest cog. 16 minimum to maximum sprocket difference (which the observant reader will note might get to 13 + 16 = 29 if you don't run out of wrap first, perhaps in situations like 50-39 rings not on Campagnolo's menu)
Medium - 72.5mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for standard/compact doubles and all cogs plus triple cranks with all cogs but 13-29. 30T wrap. Or 32T of wrap (2010 OEM manual). 29T largest cog. 16 minimum to maximum sprocket difference.
Long - 89mm between pulley bolt centers. Officially for triple cranks and all cogs. 38 (2010 OEM manual) or 39T wrap. 29T largest cog. 22 minimum to maximum sprocket difference. Obviously with the specified 11 minimum starting cog and a 22 range you'd end up with a 33 large which is beyond 29T.
The 8/9 speed Racing-T derailleur was a medium which I measured at 75mm between jockey wheel axles.
Personally, I'd pair a smaller cassette with a triple crank and NOS 2006 Record Titanium derailleurs. You can have one tooth jumps to the 19 cog, more speed before shifting to your big ring, and a lower gear for mountains. Chorus 10 speed ergo levers will all run a triple using 6 or 7 out of 12 positions.
#23
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Zacster, the reality is always a little better than the published range.
The evolution of the bike went this way
Got it (used) with full Chorus 10 speed. Including 53-39 on a square taper BB. 12-25 cassette. I rode that bike up Pikes Peak the second day I had it. It was character building.
Quickly switched to 13-29 and it was pretty good. No real concerns at all. In fact, it might have been plug and play, as in, I just installed the cassette and went for a ride.
I wanted even more and got the Chorus carbon compact cranks that needed new bearings for cheap. It only took a few minutes to put new bearings on. The only problem was I didn't install the cranks 180 apart and didn't notice for a couple rides.
I got the 12-30 cassette almost accidentally. Just had my name on a list to email when it finally came back in stock. I will say it is far lighter than the 13-29 one it replaced. Both are Campy but the 12-30 was a little more expensive.
I got it to work by shortening the chain but I had to be very careful. Nobody cross chains on purpose, I just don't want to do it on accident and ruin anything.
Yesterday was new chain day and I put it together one link longer. Solves the big cross chain concern but re-opens the whole can of worms about granny gear. I'm trying to have it all.
As for the small small problem. It's basically a non concern. However, if Campy says that I can move my cup out up to .8mm, why not? It's really easy to find out, if it's too wide, as in two pieces of the spindle aren't solidly connected, the bearings will bind when the bolt is tight. It's not like it would even be rideable. So it's not an issue of riding with half tooth engagement on the spindle, it's a matter of it working perfectly or the bearings don't move.
The evolution of the bike went this way
Got it (used) with full Chorus 10 speed. Including 53-39 on a square taper BB. 12-25 cassette. I rode that bike up Pikes Peak the second day I had it. It was character building.
Quickly switched to 13-29 and it was pretty good. No real concerns at all. In fact, it might have been plug and play, as in, I just installed the cassette and went for a ride.
I wanted even more and got the Chorus carbon compact cranks that needed new bearings for cheap. It only took a few minutes to put new bearings on. The only problem was I didn't install the cranks 180 apart and didn't notice for a couple rides.
I got the 12-30 cassette almost accidentally. Just had my name on a list to email when it finally came back in stock. I will say it is far lighter than the 13-29 one it replaced. Both are Campy but the 12-30 was a little more expensive.
I got it to work by shortening the chain but I had to be very careful. Nobody cross chains on purpose, I just don't want to do it on accident and ruin anything.
Yesterday was new chain day and I put it together one link longer. Solves the big cross chain concern but re-opens the whole can of worms about granny gear. I'm trying to have it all.
As for the small small problem. It's basically a non concern. However, if Campy says that I can move my cup out up to .8mm, why not? It's really easy to find out, if it's too wide, as in two pieces of the spindle aren't solidly connected, the bearings will bind when the bolt is tight. It's not like it would even be rideable. So it's not an issue of riding with half tooth engagement on the spindle, it's a matter of it working perfectly or the bearings don't move.
#24
Senior Member
Zacster, the reality is always a little better than the published range.
The evolution of the bike went this way
Got it (used) with full Chorus 10 speed. Including 53-39 on a square taper BB. 12-25 cassette. I rode that bike up Pikes Peak the second day I had it. It was character building.
Quickly switched to 13-29 and it was pretty good. No real concerns at all. In fact, it might have been plug and play, as in, I just installed the cassette and went for a ride.
I wanted even more and got the Chorus carbon compact cranks that needed new bearings for cheap. It only took a few minutes to put new bearings on. The only problem was I didn't install the cranks 180 apart and didn't notice for a couple rides.
I got the 12-30 cassette almost accidentally. Just had my name on a list to email when it finally came back in stock. I will say it is far lighter than the 13-29 one it replaced. Both are Campy but the 12-30 was a little more expensive.
I got it to work by shortening the chain but I had to be very careful. Nobody cross chains on purpose, I just don't want to do it on accident and ruin anything.
Yesterday was new chain day and I put it together one link longer. Solves the big cross chain concern but re-opens the whole can of worms about granny gear. I'm trying to have it all.
As for the small small problem. It's basically a non concern. However, if Campy says that I can move my cup out up to .8mm, why not? It's really easy to find out, if it's too wide, as in two pieces of the spindle aren't solidly connected, the bearings will bind when the bolt is tight. It's not like it would even be rideable. So it's not an issue of riding with half tooth engagement on the spindle, it's a matter of it working perfectly or the bearings don't move.
The evolution of the bike went this way
Got it (used) with full Chorus 10 speed. Including 53-39 on a square taper BB. 12-25 cassette. I rode that bike up Pikes Peak the second day I had it. It was character building.
Quickly switched to 13-29 and it was pretty good. No real concerns at all. In fact, it might have been plug and play, as in, I just installed the cassette and went for a ride.
I wanted even more and got the Chorus carbon compact cranks that needed new bearings for cheap. It only took a few minutes to put new bearings on. The only problem was I didn't install the cranks 180 apart and didn't notice for a couple rides.
I got the 12-30 cassette almost accidentally. Just had my name on a list to email when it finally came back in stock. I will say it is far lighter than the 13-29 one it replaced. Both are Campy but the 12-30 was a little more expensive.
I got it to work by shortening the chain but I had to be very careful. Nobody cross chains on purpose, I just don't want to do it on accident and ruin anything.
Yesterday was new chain day and I put it together one link longer. Solves the big cross chain concern but re-opens the whole can of worms about granny gear. I'm trying to have it all.
As for the small small problem. It's basically a non concern. However, if Campy says that I can move my cup out up to .8mm, why not? It's really easy to find out, if it's too wide, as in two pieces of the spindle aren't solidly connected, the bearings will bind when the bolt is tight. It's not like it would even be rideable. So it's not an issue of riding with half tooth engagement on the spindle, it's a matter of it working perfectly or the bearings don't move.