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Riding far versus fast

Old 12-12-20, 09:23 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Richard Cranium
The post demonstrates a limited understanding of exercise as well as metabolism.

The best exercise strategy for annacaptur is the exercise he/she will continue to practice. Hopefully that could include many kinds of bike rides.
The OP posted 10 questions in 10 different sub forums, just to reach the target of 10 posts before he could post a link to whatever he was advertising. He also never came back after his original question here.

It is fun to see how the thread moves on. I guess it is OK as long as everyone is having fun, just don’t expect much interaction with the OP.
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Old 12-20-20, 07:12 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt
Low intensity which is forced by enough time riding. I lost over 60 pounds that way without being hungry.

That produces appetite suppressing peptide YY and doesn't deplete your glycogen stores as much leading to hunger.

Working out past your anaerobic threshold reduces hunger stimulating ghrelin production, but is too limited - you can't do that every day, and probably can't accumulate more than 30 minutes total. Instead you end up working somewhat hard which produces what runners call "runger" because you've depleted your glycogen stores without increasing peptide YY or decreasing ghrelin.

If you could ignore hunger you wouldn't be asking about weight loss.

Rob Gray's test results from the Wattage list, with FTP around 300W.

The problem with charts like this is the represent the calorie burn during the work and don't consider the afterburn, so they are misleading to some extent
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Old 12-20-20, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by srode1
The problem with charts like this is the represent the calorie burn during the work and don't consider the afterburn, so they are misleading to some extent
Excess Post Exercise Oxygen Consumption and the accompanying glycolysis totals 6-15% of that during exercise.

Regardless, it's not enough to offset the increased food consumption from "runger."
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Old 12-20-20, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt
Excess Post Exercise Oxygen Consumption and the accompanying glycolysis totals 6-15% of that during exercise.

Regardless, it's not enough to offset the increased food consumption from "runger."
yep, can't out work a bad diet for sure. Looking at a single chart for a specific workout can still be misleading vs looking at a longer term impact of the choice between an endurance vs HIIT session approach to weight loss. What is the impact on a person's metabolism and muscle mass as an example as well as endurance to more easily perform at higher intensity and burn more calories within a person'ts time constraints for exercise (which is the real world for most people). Definitely need to look at the whole picture including exercise choices along with dietary choices.
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Old 12-20-20, 10:48 AM
  #55  
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This is just me - not everybody is like this. But for most of my adult life I have been at (roughly) my right weight or I have been 30-50 pounds overweight. There have been 3 extended periods ( multiple years) where I did serious exercise. I am talking like running (7 minute miles) 50 miles per week, or riding a bike 150-200+ miles per week. And then there have been 3 extended periods where I did not do those things,.

Without exception when I was not exercising I was (or was getting) fat. When I was exercising I was losing weight or was not fat. That is my personal equation. It probably does not work for everyone as I find lots of exercise easy and diet control hard. But this is not 'go for a casual spin on the bike' type exercise.

Back to the topic - burn 800-1000 calories a day at whatever level of effort works for me. I cannot speak for others.

dave
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Old 12-20-20, 10:55 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by srode1
The problem with charts like this is the represent the calorie burn during the work and don't consider the afterburn, so they are misleading to some extent
I’d also like to see how someone can can ride at 105% of FTP for an hour. The far right bar may as well be infinite.
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Old 12-20-20, 11:07 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by caloso
I’d also like to see how someone can can ride at 105% of FTP for an hour. The far right bar may as well be infinite.
Per Training Peaks

Lactate Threshold (LT) is also referred to simply as threshold. Lactate Threshold Power is also referred to as functional threshold power (FTP). For most trained athletes this is similar to the maximum effort they can maintain for an hour.

So ftp is actually a lab measured metabolic thing and the 'one hour max steady effort' measure is an approximation. So some folks probably can do 105% of their actual ftp for an hour.

dave
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Old 12-20-20, 12:27 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
Per Training Peaks

Lactate Threshold (LT) is also referred to simply as threshold. Lactate Threshold Power is also referred to as functional threshold power (FTP). For most trained athletes this is similar to the maximum effort they can maintain for an hour.

So ftp is actually a lab measured metabolic thing and the 'one hour max steady effort' measure is an approximation. So some folks probably can do 105% of their actual ftp for an hour.

dave
The original point of FTP was that it was a relatively simple measurement to make in the field. It was never a lab based metabolic measurement. I don't think there has ever been a definition of FTP that would support riding at 105% for an hour. People that ride over 100% for an hour simply have their FTP set too low which is not uncommon as FTP is not constant over time.
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Old 12-20-20, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by caloso
I’d also like to see how someone can can ride at 105% of FTP for an hour. The far right bar may as well be infinite.
The fact that the vertical axis is labeled Cal per hour does not mean you have to ride for 1 hour. Just like you can ride at 20 mph during 30 minutes.
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Old 12-20-20, 01:01 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by gregf83
The original point of FTP was that it was a relatively simple measurement to make in the field. It was never a lab based metabolic measurement. I don't think there has ever been a definition of FTP that would support riding at 105% for an hour. People that ride over 100% for an hour simply have their FTP set too low which is not uncommon as FTP is not constant over time.
I think the point that was being made is that the 1 hour point is not in the definition and some genetic freak might be able to do it. But I agree it is very unlikely because if FTP>1hr, then the part between 1hr and FTP TTE is not that steep.

This article explains how you could define FTP:https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/t...ing-protocols/

It is the point on the power curve when power suddenly starts to drop much faster, after it drops slowly from say 20min onwards.
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Old 12-20-20, 01:17 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by gregf83
The original point of FTP was that it was a relatively simple measurement to make in the field. It was never a lab based metabolic measurement. I don't think there has ever been a definition of FTP that would support riding at 105% for an hour. People that ride over 100% for an hour simply have their FTP set too low which is not uncommon as FTP is not constant over time.
I believe that it was originally a lab based thing (the point at which you start to accumulate significant bloodstream lactate). The field measurements are a way to do this determination in the field without a lab. I have no idea how different they might be in some cases. And I agree that 5% more power (as opposed to 5% longer) is a big step. dave
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Old 12-20-20, 02:35 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by mr_pedro
This article explains how you could define FTP:https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/t...ing-protocols/
The article explains how you can measure FTP, not define it. There's a big difference.
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Old 12-20-20, 02:39 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
I believe that it was originally a lab based thing (the point at which you start to accumulate significant bloodstream lactate).
You are incorrect. There are many lab-based metrics for when someone exceeds a quasi-steady state (lactate threshold, anaerobic threshold MLSS, OBLA, etc.). FTP was introduced as a simple field-based metric to replace the need for lab testing. I was there when it happened.
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Old 12-20-20, 02:50 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
The article explains how you can measure FTP, not define it. There's a big difference.
In the article it is mentioned that FTP is defined as the power at MLSS. It is also the highest intensity for which no anaerobic power is used.
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Old 12-20-20, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle
You are incorrect. There are many lab-based metrics for when someone exceeds a quasi-steady state (lactate threshold, anaerobic threshold MLSS, OBLA, etc.). FTP was introduced as a simple field-based metric to replace the need for lab testing. I was there when it happened.
I do believe that we just said the same thing. dave
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Old 12-20-20, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
I do believe that we just said the same thing. dave
Really?
Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
I believe that it was originally a lab based thing ...
FTP was never lab-based.
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Old 12-20-20, 05:40 PM
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[QUOTE=asgelle;21841418]Really?

FTP was never lab-based.[/QUOTE

I did not say that. It referred to whatever threshold (lab based or field based) you were using as a fundamental parameter of your training at that time.

Here is an interesting question. Assume the impossible where someone came up with a thermometer that would measure in 20 seconds either your ftp or your LT (precise definition of your choice). Which would be the better metric on which to base your training in the manner that we do today with power meters and ftp? I truly do not have an opinion - at least for well trained athletes.

dave
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Old 12-20-20, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
Here is an interesting question. Assume the impossible where someone came up with a thermometer that would measure in 20 seconds either your ftp or your LT (precise definition of your choice). Which would be the better metric on which to base your training in the manner that we do today with power meters and ftp? I truly do not have an opinion - at least for well trained athletes.
Others with a stronger background in physiology or coaching can correct me, but my view is since FTP is a field-based surrogate for MLSS, if you had a way to quickly and accurately measure MLSS, it wouldn't make sense to use FTP. I'd add that whether MLSS is the best marker to use or not depends on what you plan to do with the information.

As for me, I shy away from using any single point metric and prefer to look at the full power-duration curve.
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Old 12-21-20, 12:25 AM
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[QUOTE=DaveLeeNC;21841595]
Originally Posted by asgelle
Really?

FTP was never lab-based.[/QUOTE

I did not say that. It referred to whatever threshold (lab based or field based) you were using as a fundamental parameter of your training at that time.

Here is an interesting question. Assume the impossible where someone came up with a thermometer that would measure in 20 seconds either your ftp or your LT (precise definition of your choice). Which would be the better metric on which to base your training in the manner that we do today with power meters and ftp? I truly do not have an opinion - at least for well trained athletes.

dave
There are countless arguments about which is the best metric but at the end of the day you still have to go out and do the work and raise whatever it is your measuring. The precise definition is immaterial provided you use the same method consistently so you can track performance and the efficacy of a particular training regimen. FTP, MLSS, CP are all very close to one another.
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Old 12-21-20, 04:49 AM
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Call me simple-minded... but if someone rode 105% FTP in one hour, I'd just say "congratulations, you just improved your FTP. It's now 105% of your old FTP."

But in the context of the graph... you can lump me in the "I'd like to see how you can ride 105% your FTP in one hour" group.
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Old 12-21-20, 07:44 AM
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Functional Threshold Power was developed by Dr. Andrew Coggan and is specifically defined as “the highest power a rider can maintain in a quasi-steady state without fatiguing."


Originally Posted by Andrew Coggan
That is because 1) the exercise intensity-duration relationship is quite flat in that region, and 2) FTP has never been defined as the power you can maintain for 60(.000000.....) min.


...
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Old 12-21-20, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by atwl77
But in the context of the graph... you can lump me in the "I'd like to see how you can ride 105% your FTP in one hour" group.
The graph is not implying anyone to ride at 105% FTP for 1 hour. The unit of the vertical axis is kCal per hour, however that does not mean you need to ride for 1 hour, just like riding at 20 mph can also be done for 30 minutes.
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Old 12-21-20, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_pedro
The graph is not implying anyone to ride at 105% FTP for 1 hour. The unit of the vertical axis is kCal per hour, however that does not mean you need to ride for 1 hour, just like riding at 20 mph can also be done for 30 minutes.
How can they denote kCal per hour?

One person's 100% FTP may burn 1300 kCal an hour, whereas someone else's may only burn 600.
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Old 12-21-20, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
How can they denote kCal per hour?

One person's 100% FTP may burn 1300 kCal an hour, whereas someone else's may only burn 600.
the plot isn’t for everyone. It’s for Rob Gray.
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Old 12-26-20, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle
the plot isn’t for everyone. It’s for Rob Gray.
Fackin Rob.
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