eduskator

So you're on the ''I like my hub quiet'' team! How many are you exactly?

Last year, my brand new bike's hub had dirt inside for an unknown reason (what the?) and it was making a creaking sound under load. The LBS' Tech overhauled it and he obviously didn't read the instructions / know what he was doing because he put so much grease inside that you couldn't hear it anymore. I can't ride with a quiet hub. You're supposed to put a thin layer on the ratchets, not the whole tube!

Symox

It’s possible they added just enough to quiet it down. If they added a LOT of grease you would likely feel significant drag (I’ve made that mistake before )

Iride01 

Now it's a battle of the quiet hub vs the noisy hub. This must be for those that love the lantern rouge battles, as likely those lantern rouge candidates coasted too much also.

Yes I've found Shimano freehubs to be much more quieter than the Specialized Axis hub on my Tarmac that might be made by DT Swiss. But it's not a big deal. Just don't coast. I'd rather it be quiet, but I'm not going to not ride avoid riding my Tarmac because it's noisy when I'm too tired to pedal.

I just think of it as encouragement not to coast. Just like someone far ahead of me is encouragement to go harder and pass them.


I've read plenty of threads from people disturbed because their freehub didn't make much noise.

Psimet2001 

Honestly we have sold, built with and serviced an immense number of these hubs. The absolute most common failure is slipping under pressure caused by wear on the pawls in combination with "slop" in the hub (caused by either concentricity issues with the ring gear or bearing bores). The slightest wear will result in enough loss of an edge on those pawls that they will start failing to hold the ring gear under pressure.

Psimet2001 

As a wheel builder I get to watch this get played out daily. One customer is all about how loud a hub can be and swears it is a direct indication of the quality of the hub. The next will say how quiet it is as an indicator of quality.

Reality is that design and materials along with lubrication will affect the sound level of the freehub and that is seldom an indication of quality either way.

IMHO - it's a pointless endeavor and a little piece of me dies every time I have to endure the discussion. I am lucky to have this be one of my problems in life but the key word is still problem. The same phrase just rattles around in my head the whole time - If you don't like the sound then don't coast and ride faster.

WhyFi

This reminds me of when I was a kid looking at stereo equipment in department stores - the slower the tape deck opened, the better it was! Those decks that opened like molasses on a cold day were hot ****, boy!

asgelle

In fact, you have it exactly backwards. Racing success correlates to time coasting: the most successful racers coast the most.

Racing Dan

Really? I never owned a hub that would slip, except if the pawls stick from rust or a broken pawl spring. Once the pawl engage and come under pressure it should "self lock" rather that slip. If slight wear cause the ratchet to slip id say its a design defect, but honestly, I have a hard time believing it. Id stay of Bitex clear if that is really the case. Its not a common issue, least not from my experience.

Psimet2001 

Yes, really. I don't know where to start with this. Your thoughts about the matter seem nice for you but I am a direct voice of a lot of experience. This used to be more of an issue on batches about 5-6 years ago. That said - the freehubs wear out and when they do the pawls lose grip on the drive ring. The repair is a replacement freehub.

This is not the only hub that happens to. I will also replace pawls in all sorts of hubs - like White Industries, Novatech variants from Powertap, etc. It happens with riders who develop a lot of power or simply ride tons. Some designs seem to fare better.

Cyclist0108

That can be a real buzz-kill.

Racing Dan

Im sure freehubs eventually wear out, but that wasnt really what I answered to before. In #29 you said "The slightest wear will result in enough loss of an edge on those pawls that they will start failing to hold the ring gear under pressure." and in #6 you said "The pawls aren't tarnished - they have a coating on them to help with long term wear and you have removed it making them softer."

Slight wear shouldn't cause the hub to break down and slip under load, - its not normal and its quite dangerous, and IMO, the pawls should be hardened steel. Maybe it IS the case with these hubs, I dunno, but how about using another brand? Say Shimano that also have a hardened steel freehub body that wont gouge ;-)

Psimet2001 

I don't know where this is getting lost in translation or why you seem to be doubting the validity of my experience. I am starting to think you don't understand the failure I am discussing. It's not a complete letting go. You don't just go spinning down the road with no engagement. It will slip a tooth. A loud "thunk" almost like the chain skipping. Only under heavy load. ...and yes any change in the shape of the edge of the pawl will hasten the issue. This isn't a "I heard a story"... This also isn't a "OMG those hubs explode" kind of thing either. This is just an artifact of the design and materials. Just like all the problems DT hubs have is an artifact of their design. Doesn't mean either is a bad hub to use.

You bring up Shimano hubs - They have eliminated themselves from the mix. They are only building in 32 spoke variants anymore and no longer offer hubs in new groups. They are leaving the hub business and choosing to stay in the prebuilt wheel business instead. They are also now starting to use cartridge bearings in their hubs as well.

As for the OP causing irreparable damage to his hubs by polishing his pawls - *shrug*. I could care less if he did or didn't. To me though it's like saying "I moved my car's gas tank to outside the frame nd now it's more aerodynamic and I get better gas mileage" all i then did was come along and say, "yeah wrecks happen and if you get in one that gas tank work you did is a bad idea". All hubs have weak points. It doesn't make sense to play around with a known one.

It's like if someone decided to go drill extra holes to drop weight back when all sorts of flanges would explode.

Kimmo 

Symox

wow, didn’t know that about Shimano. Too bad

Your wealth of experience I’m sure is an asset to this forum.

Symox

The hub is running fantastic btw

i could care less about the sound it makes while coasting. Simply adding more grease on the teeth would quiet it down.

smashndash

Welp. I'm probably the guy who said to try removing the 3 pawls on the RAR12. I've been riding with 3 pawls removed for a couple years now and I agree that it's easy to argue that this is worse from a safety perspective. There are a few reasons why I think removing one set of 3 is fine.

1) I'm a light rider who spins fast and doesn't put out much power
2) I don't intend to ride this wheelset so long that the pawl wear becomes an issue. If it does, a RAR12 freehub is cheap.
3) Wouldn't having half the pawls reduce wear on the drive ring?
4) Doesn't most pawl wear happen when coasting rather than while engaged? Ie the wear is equal regardless of how many pawls you have. The only way halving the pawls would reduce the service life is if the pawls experienced wear when engaged - ie they slipped. If this hub ever slipped under power like that, I'd toss it and go straight to DT. Or maybe if stressing the pawls somehow caused them to crack eventually. But I really feel like that sort of failure mechanism is unlikely compared to what psimet mentioned.

lmk if I have it wrong psimet

Symox

you might have been but it was an interesting experiment and I enjoyed it.

I did go back to six pawls though. I am impressed with the quality of the hub for the price.

polishing the pawls made a noticeable improvement although riding it for a thousand miles would likely have done the same thing.

cuevélo

Which Shimano hubs have cartridge bearings in them?

Psimet2001 

I remembered seeing a post on an industry forum in passing. Couldn't find it readily but I remembered it was a new wheel and guessed it was an offroad wheel as the rest of the world seems to only ride offroad stuff... quick search on Shimano revealed WH-MT601 all variants for MY2021

Example: https://si.shimano.com/api/publish/s...-B-29-4733.pdf

I don't have any indication that this will continue but I would imagine at this point Shimano has to be getting tired of making cup and cone and finally realizes there's no reason to stick with it. Cartridge work and are immensely less expensive to produce. It's a bit like Chris King saying he would never produce an internal headset. Things change and while they may have a great ground to stand on technically the change will still come anyway.

cuevélo

Honestly it surprises me that it took so long. I think that they're a better choice for the large number of people who don't know so much about maintenance, especially on the mountain bike or muddy side of things.

Camilo

I re-read your original post and am still wondering what change you felt and how it was an improvement. Smoother coasting, quieter, quicker engagement?

Symox

smoother and longer lasting coasting. Sound changed I thing less noisy but definitely changed.

vane171

That makes you stand from the crowd, maybe in a group ride, people can tell its you who is on their back?

BTW I like that 'come on' above about the 'winning riders coasting the most'. Loud freehub is also good to make those in front of you nervous, only second to clicking your brake levers even if you are not braking.

Symox

btw, I started another thread where I substituted chainsaw oil (bar and chain oil) for the grease I was using in the hub. This is a sticky oil that is much slicker than the grease I was using (Park's polylube - an excellent product). OMG the hub runs amazing now.