Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Singlespeed & Fixed Gear
Reload this Page >

advantage of radial lacing for front wheel?

Notices
Singlespeed & Fixed Gear "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailer? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!"-- Henri Desgrange (31 January 1865 - 16 August 1940)

advantage of radial lacing for front wheel?

Old 06-21-08, 02:16 PM
  #1  
danimal4lovin
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 36

Bikes: Soma Rush

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
advantage of radial lacing for front wheel?

Is there any advantage of lacing a front wheel radial, instead of 2x or 3x? Is it just for looks? Thanks
danimal4lovin is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 03:32 PM
  #2  
blamire
Senior Member
 
blamire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 771
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
i think it uses less spokes but is not as strong so can only be used on front wheel. lots of road bikes have them so its probably all about weight.
blamire is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 03:34 PM
  #3  
roadfix
hello
 
roadfix's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 18,601
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
They're just easier to clean, that's all.
roadfix is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 03:47 PM
  #4  
droptop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 386
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
it uses a SLIGHTLY shorter spoke (a few mm max), so it saves weight there. it looks different than what has been used for years, and my friend swears that its more aerodynamic. (yet i still beat him with my 3x laced wheel.)
droptop is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 03:59 PM
  #5  
octopus magic
Mmm cats
 
octopus magic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 813

Bikes: Fuji Track Pro, Look 555, Superb Sprint, Fuji Cross RC

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
It looks cool. That's ... about it.

If you're worried about/or needed the benefits of the aerodynamic properties of a radial vs. 3 cross, you wouldn't be posting on the internet, you'd be too busy running nationals and worlds on Mavics.
octopus magic is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 05:11 PM
  #6  
danimal4lovin
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 36

Bikes: Soma Rush

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
yeah, thats what i thought, thanks
danimal4lovin is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 05:39 PM
  #7  
mihlbach
Senior Member
 
mihlbach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 6,519
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
The benefits of radial lacing are a slightly lighter, more aero, and slightly stiffer wheel. Its also much easier and faster to build a radially laced wheel. The only real drawback to radial lacing is that it cannot handle torque, which is why a rear wheel is never completely radial laced, although one side may be radial. Radial is perfectly fine for the front, unless you are using a disk brake. Radial lacing stresses the hub flange more and there is a very minor risk of breaking the hub flange if you are using a hub not built for radial lacing.

All my bikes have radially laced fronts ranging in spoke count from 36-24, all custom built by myself. My oldest pairs of wheels have been subjected to pretty severe punishment, but none of them have ever broken, lost tension, or gone out of true. With the right front hub (and no disk brake), radial is as strong, durable, and reliable as a 2x or 3x. Overall, the benefits are exceedingly minor, but IMO, its the best lacing strategy for the front wheel.

Last edited by mihlbach; 06-21-08 at 05:46 PM.
mihlbach is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 06:26 PM
  #8  
Peedtm
Tell them I hate them
 
Peedtm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 939

Bikes: Specialized Allez Epic '91, IRO Mark V Pro, Schwinn Traveler

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Just lace it monospoke. That's the easiest. Super stiff too
Peedtm is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 06:28 PM
  #9  
operator
cab horn
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,349

Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by mihlbach View Post
With the right front hub (and no disk brake), radial is as strong, durable, and reliable as a 2x or 3x. Overall, the benefits are exceedingly minor, but IMO, its the best lacing strategy for the front wheel.
Completely and utterly false.

You are making the mistaken implication that just because your raidal wheels haven't broken that they are equivalent in strength to 1,2 or even 3 cross. No real mechanic would utter such a statement.

The primary reason wheels for rec riders are radially laced is for aesthetics.
operator is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 06:46 PM
  #10  
mihlbach
Senior Member
 
mihlbach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 6,519
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by operator View Post
Completely and utterly false.

You are making the mistaken implication that just because your raidal wheels haven't broken that they are equivalent in strength to 1,2 or even 3 cross. No real mechanic would utter such a statement.

The primary reason wheels for rec riders are radially laced is for aesthetics.
Thats a pretty bold series of statements you are making.
You are incorrect in thinking that no "real" mechanic would claim this. My claims aren't merely based on my own experience with building and riding wheels. Other sources including many (indeed, the majority) of noteworthy wheelbuilders build radially laced wheels and find no problems with them. If radially laced front wheels (assuming no disk brake and properly built hub) are structurally more flawed than crossed spokes, please explain how and back it up with proof or data of some sort.
Nonetheless, you are right that aesthetics are a big factor for some people. However, it could be that the reason why many many front wheels are radially laced boils down to cost...they are easier and faster to build, and probably cheaper to manufacture.

Last edited by mihlbach; 06-21-08 at 06:53 PM.
mihlbach is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 07:25 PM
  #11  
DasProfezzional
No cud for foil.
 
DasProfezzional's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD and Montreal, QC
Posts: 1,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by mihlbach View Post
Thats a pretty bold series of statements you are making.
If by "bold" you mean "true," I guess.
DasProfezzional is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 08:21 PM
  #12  
jdms mvp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: four 1 OHHH , Maryland
Posts: 2,849

Bikes: nagasawa, fuji track pro

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
to respond to the OP, radially lacing is lighter...it matters to some... (pros)

maybe for somepeople, aesthetics?
jdms mvp is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 08:35 PM
  #13  
smurfy
Senior Member
 
smurfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 1,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by droptop View Post
it uses a SLIGHTLY shorter spoke (a few mm max), so it saves weight there. it looks different than what has been used for years, and my friend swears that its more aerodynamic. (yet i still beat him with my 3x laced wheel.)
I believe the difference between a radial spoke and a 3x wheel (36h, 700c) is the length of one-half of one spoke!
smurfy is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 08:41 PM
  #14  
cc700
Ths Hipstr Kills Masheenz
 
cc700's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: seattle
Posts: 8,543

Bikes: tirove

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
no one's brought up the difference between torsional strength vs. rigidity and structural strength?

radial lacing is stronger and lighter than arrospoks, therefore it must be stronger and lighter than air.
cc700 is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 08:53 PM
  #15  
idiq
IRL Banhammer
 
idiq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: RVA
Posts: 664
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Chiefly weight. Remember, you're not putting pressure down on the spokes, only at the top part of the rotation are the spokes actually hanging the wheel on your frame.

Also, 3x is the strongest lacing, even stronger than 4x.

Cheers
__________________
saddle sores bike club | prepare to be rode
idiq is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 09:49 PM
  #16  
tbrtbx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 486
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I prefer the 'feel' of 2-cross front wheels. When I ride a radially laced front .. it feels really 'dead' .. i mean, the feeling in my hands feels exactly the same all the time. 2-cross feels more springy and lively. Feels less .. harsh, i guess. Anyone know what i'm talking about?
tbrtbx is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 09:52 PM
  #17  
bionnaki
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 886
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I was wondering if radial feels more harsh when ridden vs, say, 3x...anyone else agree with tbrtbx?
bionnaki is offline  
Old 06-21-08, 11:03 PM
  #18  
Severian
META
 
Severian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 945

Bikes: Gary Fisher Aquila (retired), Specialized Allez Sport (in parts), Cannondale R500, HP Velotechnic Street Machine, Dented Blue Fixed Gear (retired), Seven Tsunami SSFG, Specialized Stumpjumper Comp Hardtail (alloy version)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by mihlbach View Post
Thats a pretty bold series of statements you are making.
You are incorrect in thinking that no "real" mechanic would claim this. My claims aren't merely based on my own experience with building and riding wheels. Other sources including many (indeed, the majority) of noteworthy wheelbuilders build radially laced wheels and find no problems with them. If radially laced front wheels (assuming no disk brake and properly built hub) are structurally more flawed than crossed spokes, please explain how and back it up with proof or data of some sort.
Nonetheless, you are right that aesthetics are a big factor for some people. However, it could be that the reason why many many front wheels are radially laced boils down to cost...they are easier and faster to build, and probably cheaper to manufacture.
Operator likes to whip out the "no real mechanic" thing from time to time. Occasionally he's right. In this case I think its unwarranted.

In the class on wheelbuilding at UBI (as well as in reading from the books by Jobst Brandt, Gerd Schraner, Barnetts and others) the general consensus was that Radial lacing is (surprise surprise) radially stiffer and therefore better able to handle loads across a diameter line on a wheel. Also they are a touch lighter than wheel with a higher cross count. As previously noted.

So no, its not just for looks.

tbrtbx:

so you've found ride quality to be affected by spoking pattern? what do you attribute that to? At a guess I think it would be the difference in radial rigidity between a direct vs. tangential (ie. radial versus any other kind of cross laced) mount spoking pattern.

Can you expand on what you mean by dead?
Severian is offline  
Old 06-22-08, 09:18 AM
  #19  
dutret
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: GA
Posts: 5,317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
radial wheels are stronger both laterally and radially though a mess under torsion(hence no disk fronts or rears).

Shorter spokes all coming from the outside of the flange means a larger angle and stronger laterally.
dutret is offline  
Old 06-22-08, 09:51 AM
  #20  
blickblocks
.
 
blickblocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,861
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
It's very sad to see, but some Walmart faux-BMX bikes have radial lacing front and rear. Granted they are also 48 spoke wheels, but still. You gotta love it when marketing teams pretend they're engineers.
__________________
http://blicksbags.com/
blickblocks is offline  
Old 06-22-08, 09:57 AM
  #21  
operator
cab horn
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,349

Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
So the we've now redefined stronger as weak now?

Radial by definition puts the stress on the hub flange on a much smaller section than 1x, 2x or 3x. When you do this with high spoke count wheels and small flanges and non forged hubs you are asking for disaster.

Please, let me know how you've solved this problem and can now claim that radial spoking is just as strong as any > 0 # of crosses. Sure it's stiffer laterally and radially, but if that's the metric we're redefining "strong" wheels as, then you are 100% correct.
operator is offline  
Old 06-22-08, 10:02 AM
  #22  
operator
cab horn
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,349

Bikes: 1987 Bianchi Campione

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by dutret View Post
radial wheels are stronger both laterally and radially though a mess under torsion(hence no disk fronts or rears).

Shorter spokes all coming from the outside of the flange means a larger angle and stronger laterally.
So you've unquit now? After all that big huff about bikeforums being such a ******** place? Feeling lonely?
operator is offline  
Old 06-22-08, 10:14 AM
  #23  
blickblocks
.
 
blickblocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,861
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by operator View Post
So you've unquit now? After all that big huff about bikeforums being such a ******** place? Feeling lonely?
Hey, no need to antagonize anyone. Let's just discuss the topic.
__________________
http://blicksbags.com/
blickblocks is offline  
Old 06-22-08, 10:41 AM
  #24  
ban guzzi
circus bear
 
ban guzzi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Austin
Posts: 642

Bikes: 97(?) GT Richochet, 00 Schwinn SuperSport

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Radial doesn't work for bigger people. I can't and won't run radial on any of my bikes. It may look cool but I have no desire to have a spoke or 3 pop riding my Panic to work at 430 am.

So, strong laterally with weight savings but poor torsionally as someone already pointed out. No bueno for a Clyde on rough roads going fixed 20 miles RT...
ban guzzi is offline  
Old 06-22-08, 11:40 AM
  #25  
mihlbach
Senior Member
 
mihlbach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 6,519
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by operator View Post
So the we've now redefined stronger as weak now?

Radial by definition puts the stress on the hub flange on a much smaller section than 1x, 2x or 3x. When you do this with high spoke count wheels and small flanges and non forged hubs you are asking for disaster.

Please, let me know how you've solved this problem and can now claim that radial spoking is just as strong as any > 0 # of crosses. Sure it's stiffer laterally and radially, but if that's the metric we're redefining "strong" wheels as, then you are 100% correct.
Have you been brainwashed by some sort of fundamentalist wheelbuilder cult?

Many hubs are build to withstand radial lacing, even most hubs that are not warranted with radial are still built for it...its not as if the solution isn't already there. There are millions of radial wheels out there and no one's dying from them, not even clydes.

Last edited by mihlbach; 06-22-08 at 11:48 AM.
mihlbach is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.