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advantage of radial lacing for front wheel?

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advantage of radial lacing for front wheel?

Old 06-22-08, 11:46 AM
  #26  
onespeed89
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Originally Posted by Peedtm View Post
Just lace it monospoke. That's the easiest. Super stiff too

There is a carbon wheel with one spoke, its insane, someone must have the picture. Looks liek that but only of course its wider but its really cool looking.
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Old 06-22-08, 12:43 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by operator View Post
So the we've now redefined stronger as weak now?

Radial by definition puts the stress on the hub flange on a much smaller section than 1x, 2x or 3x. When you do this with high spoke count wheels and small flanges and non forged hubs you are asking for disaster.
yes you clearly shouldn't do this with older or really ****ty hubs.

Originally Posted by operator View Post
Please, let me know how you've solved this problem and can now claim that radial spoking is just as strong as any > 0 # of crosses.
I didn't solve this but hub and wheel building did over a decade ago.

Originally Posted by operator View Post
Sure it's stiffer laterally and radially, but if that's the metric we're redefining "strong" wheels as, then you are 100% correct.

No I'm defining stronger as taking more of a beating without getting knocked out of true or failing. If this was 1990 you might have a point but plenty of hubs are designed for radial spokes now and they're stronger with them.


Originally Posted by operator View Post
So you've unquit now? After all that big huff about bikeforums being such a ******** place? Feeling lonely?
As far as big huffs go my complaints about ****ty mods were pretty minor and the near imbecilic posters like you were a large part of what drew me here. Also I'm 99% percent sure I never said I was quitting just since threats of quitting a messageboard are unbelievably cliched.

So, strong laterally with weight savings but poor torsionally as someone already pointed out. No bueno for a Clyde on rough roads going fixed 20 miles RT...
what do you need torsional strength on a rim braked front for?
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Old 06-22-08, 12:53 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by operator View Post
So the we've now redefined stronger as weak now?

Radial by definition puts the stress on the hub flange on a much smaller section than 1x, 2x or 3x. When you do this with high spoke count wheels and small flanges and non forged hubs you are asking for disaster.

Please, let me know how you've solved this problem and can now claim that radial spoking is just as strong as any > 0 # of crosses. Sure it's stiffer laterally and radially, but if that's the metric we're redefining "strong" wheels as, then you are 100% correct.
I, for one, am not claiming that a Radially laced wheel is OVERALL stronger than a tangentially laced wheel. I agree with you that a wheel that is spoked tangentially out from the hub puts less stress on the hub flange AND has the added benefit of being torsionally stronger and therefore able to handle the stresses from a drivetrain and disc brakes. One of the reason I have no problem radially lacing a front wheel for a road bike is that the torsional stresses on a front wheel are much lower. I don't think I would ever radially lace a wheel that will see singletrack, for example.

However, there are manufacturers who drill their hubs (for a traditionally angled spoke) for spokes with more material between the edge of the flange and the spoke hole with the express intent of radially lacing their hubs. The Specialized Roval Pave wheelset being an example of this. As you mentioned other manufacturers have put caveats on their hubs for traditional spokes that strongly suggest that a wheelbuilder avoid radial lacing. However, their position (and warranty caveat) merely absolves them of manufacturers error should a wheel be radially laced and should the hub flange fail.

This doesn't mean that a wheelbuilder shouldn't ever radially lace a wheel, or a novice wheelbuilder experiment with radial lacing as a teaching tool. It is still a valid method for a wheel build both for daily use, competition and as a learning experience. If I were certain that the hub would take it, and it were for a front wheel on a road bike I would probably advocate a radial lace. There are a number of advantages to a radially laced wheel, beyond looks.
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Old 06-22-08, 01:16 PM
  #29  
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I want to see his rebuttal; I've got the popcorn ready.
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Old 06-22-08, 02:20 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by dutret View Post

what do you need torsional strength on a rim braked front for?

I wouldn't really on a front rim braked set up. Its not the torsional strength I'm concerned about. Compressive forces on just one or two spokes from rim to hub seems more likely to fail than those same forces taken by cross laced wheels. I feel better with angular deflection than compressive forces on a commuter.

I prefer crossed laced wheels but am watching how this comes out for new information....



I'm primarily a commuter and a large one. I 'feel' better not going with radial for my commuting duty. Now fancy, schmancy road or track? Heck yeah! Looks nice to me...
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Old 06-22-08, 02:26 PM
  #31  
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they CAN look sexy
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Old 06-22-08, 02:32 PM
  #32  
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http://vimeo.com/1021081

^- carbon monospoke.
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Old 06-22-08, 02:40 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by ban guzzi View Post
I wouldn't really on a front rim braked set up. Its not the torsional strength I'm concerned about. Compressive forces on just one or two spokes from rim to hub seems more likely to fail than those same forces taken by cross laced wheels. I feel better with angular deflection than compressive forces on a commuter.
huh?
There are three types of force placed on a wheel.

1. torsion between the hub and rim. Radial sucks at this but it basically doesn't exist on rim braked fronts.
2. Radial. All wheels are incredibly strong in this direction. This is why if you hit something directly head on your fork and frame will be damaged but the wheel will come out perfect even with some dinky 20 spoke race wheel.
3. Lateral. This is the type of force that makes a wheel unridable and should be what you worry about for your commuter. A well built radial outperforms a cross at this for the reasons I mentioned before.

I've used radial extensively for commuting and abusive xc. Anecdotally I've found them more durable.
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Old 06-22-08, 02:52 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by dutret View Post
huh?
There are three types of force placed on a wheel.

1. torsion between the hub and rim. Radial sucks at this but it basically doesn't exist on rim braked fronts.
2. Radial. All wheels are incredibly strong in this direction. This is why if you hit something directly head on your fork and frame will be damaged but the wheel will come out perfect even with some dinky 20 spoke race wheel.
3. Lateral. This is the type of force that makes a wheel unridable and should be what you worry about for your commuter. A well built radial outperforms a cross at this for the reasons I mentioned before.

I've used radial extensively for commuting and abusive xc. Anecdotally I've found them more durable.
guess I was using the wrong word...substitute my angular for your lateral...
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Old 08-31-08, 03:00 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by operator View Post
So the we've now redefined stronger as weak now?

Radial by definition puts the stress on the hub flange on a much smaller section than 1x, 2x or 3x. When you do this with high spoke count wheels and small flanges and non forged hubs you are asking for disaster.

Please, let me know how you've solved this problem and can now claim that radial spoking is just as strong as any > 0 # of crosses. Sure it's stiffer laterally and radially, but if that's the metric we're redefining "strong" wheels as, then you are 100% correct.
by definition?? are you certain that the definition of the word "radial" is "stress on the hub flange?" perhaps we use different editions of the OED but my first instinct is to say that you have the wrong definition for either the word "radial" or the word "definition."
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Old 08-31-08, 08:58 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by chrissmedley View Post
by definition?? are you certain that the definition of the word "radial" is "stress on the hub flange?" perhaps we use different editions of the OED but my first instinct is to say that you have the wrong definition for either the word "radial" or the word "definition."
Radial = radial lacing you nit.

Operator is right, stiffer is not stronger.
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Old 08-31-08, 09:00 AM
  #37  
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lol i think he was being facetious
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Old 08-31-08, 09:01 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by danimal4lovin View Post
Is there any advantage of lacing a front wheel radial, instead of 2x or 3x? Is it just for looks? Thanks
Pro - tiny weight diff, barely stiffer, and looks, if you like the look.


Con - Not as strong and durable, fat ****s need not apply.
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Old 08-31-08, 09:27 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by J A Holman View Post
Con - Not as strong and durable, fat ****s need not apply.
since the strength of radial wheels has been explained in detail at least make some attempt to justify your assertions.
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Old 08-31-08, 09:32 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by dutret View Post
since the strength of radial wheels has been explained in detail at least make some attempt to justify your assertions.
You only say that because earlier you said you were redefining strength as stiffness, ****ing idiot. Not the same, not explaining to a self proclaimed internet guru like you either. Sheldon you ain't, never will be. He's respected you're not and it has to do with his knowledge and experience and contribution, not at all aback biting internet biatch like "dutret"

Give it up, you can look up all the arguments you want, it's that you're unlikeable.

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Old 08-31-08, 09:34 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by J A Holman View Post
You only say that because earlier you said you were redefining strength as stiffness, ****ing idiot.
try re-reading I'm defining strength as the ability to stay true.
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Old 08-31-08, 09:41 AM
  #42  
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There has been a lot of misinformation on these forums of late. I am glad I am not new to cycling, I wouldn't learn anything from here.
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Old 08-31-08, 12:33 PM
  #43  
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Old 08-31-08, 02:15 PM
  #44  
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I learned that radial laced front wheels (track/not brake bikes) is a "stronger" lacing technique. This seems logical to me because not only is the spoke shorter, but you get to use the maximum width of your hub flanges without spokes crossing. This benefits the most when one is centered completely straight over the bike, which never happens (not even when going handless), but it also benefits in regards to the torque applied from the sides when the wheel is tilted. The downfall of a radial spoke pattern is spoke hole failure on the hubs themselves. As there is less material to actually hold the spoke (as opposed to 3x), the likelihood of fracturing a spoke hole is much higher. This rarely is a problem unless using cheaper hubs or one is considerably over the normal weight your wheel is designed to take (OLD of the hubs, flange height, spoke count, rim depth, etc.). Also, each time one crosses a spoke, the spoke itself is weakened even if the pattern is stronger for that wheel/type of riding. You rarely see 4x cross spokes patterns due to the likelihood of spoke failure at the curve due to the tension placed by the nearest crossed spoke.

Rear wheels are a different story and I have never seen a rear wheel with a radial pattern (at least on the drive side), due to hub windup. When you accelerate or brake (especially fixed gear), you need to have spokes angle both forward and backwards to compensate for the hub wanting to rotate first and the spokes needing to then turn the rims. If it was a rear radial, just imagine the picture of the hubs turning first and the straight spokes having to pull and then turn the rims. It would look like I vortex I imagine...

What I often see, especially with machine made wheels, is pairs of spokes using the same side outlet of the hub. I know there is a lot of schools of thoughts to this, but I've always learned that the pairing spokes should both be either on the inside or outside of the hub. I'm not claiming to be an expert here, so anyone have any opposing thoughts to this?

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Old 08-31-08, 02:23 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by ZeroG View Post
You rarely see 4x cross spokes patterns due to the likelihood of spoke failure at the curve due to the tension placed by the nearest crossed spoke.

Rear wheels are a different story and have never seen a rear wheel with a radial pattern (at least on the drive side), do to hub windup.
I have some 4cross wheels and i don't think the spoke are bent that much more than 3 crosses if at all. The first cross is over the flange itself.

Also ksyriums are radial drive cross non-drive so you probably have seen it before.
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Old 08-31-08, 02:36 PM
  #46  
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It's also a very easy build for the first time wheel builder.
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Old 08-31-08, 02:56 PM
  #47  
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so, there seems to be quite a bit of talk about radially-laced fronts and brakes. can someone provide some more solid information on the stress put on a radial wheel by brake calipers? in my mind, it makes absolute sense that brakes would slowly damage or untrue a radial front wheel yet, i see this set-up quite often and nobody seems to be complaining.

can anyone explain the ins and outs of this combination? or provide a link to someone reputable who can?
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Old 08-31-08, 02:57 PM
  #48  
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take directly from sheldon brown's site

"In the case of the "radial" (cross 0) pattern the spokes go straight out from the hub without crossing at all. Lower cross patterns use shorter spokes, so they are slightly lighter, and they can also be slightly stronger side-to-side"............

............"Radial spoked (cross 0) wheels have the spokes going straight out from the hub. This pattern is only suitable for front wheels that don't use hub brakes. They are very cool-looking, and are often a good choice for the ultimate in performance, because they are slightly lighter and, in theory, may have a very slight aerodynamic edge.
There are two things to watch out for with radial wheels. Because the nipples point straight inward from the rim, they can turn more easily in most rims than when they are bent to a slight angle by a semi-tangent spoke pattern. This ease of turning increases the risk of them unscrewing themselves on the road. To prevent this, nipples on radial wheels should not be lubricated, and it is a good idea to use a spoke adhesive such as Wheelsmith Spoke Prep or one of the milder flavors of Loctite on them.

The other potential problem with radial wheels is that since the spokes are trailing straight outward on the hub flange, they can possibly rip the outer edge of the flange right off along the line of the spoke holes. This is most likely to happen with small flange 36 hole hubs, because there is less metal between the spoke holes. If a used hub is re-laced radially, the notches left by the old spokes can act as stress risers, further weakening the flange.

Many hub manufacturers specifically recommend against radial spoking for this reason, and will not honor warrantys on hubs that have been spoked radially.

Some folks will say that no bicycle wheels should be radially spoked for this reason, so do this at your own risk. In my experience, it's generally OK with good quality hubs that have forged shells.

If you want to take your chances and try a radial spoked front wheel, I would advise avoiding using thick spokes and very high tension. Since front wheels are generally pretty trouble-free compared with rears, you don't need super-high tension on a front wheel that uses a reasonable number of spokes.

Bicycle folklore has it that radial-spoked wheels give a "harsh" ride, because the shorter spokes are less "stretchy" than the longer spokes used in semi-tangent wheels. This is hooey!

Wheels with hub brakes and drive wheels should never be radially spoked. Due to the near perpendicular angle of the spoke to the hub's tangent, any torque applied at the hub of a radial spoked wheel will result in a very great increase in spoke tension, almost certainly causing hub or spoke failure. "


i've experimented in lots of different spoke patterns but the one i always go back to is radial front wheel with a mix of 3x drive side rear with a radial non drive side. i always test out on my bmx bikes because thos wheels get the most stress out of everybike i ride.

my bike's lacing pattern are as follows

my commuter... shimano ultegra 6600 hub laced radial to a deep v with double butted dtswiss spokes
shimano ultegra 6600 rear with a 2 leading 2 trailign pattern on the drive side, radial non drive both are 32h
my mtn bike... dt swiss 240 hub radial laced to a bontrager race x lite rim 24h
dt swiss 240 rear 3x drive side 2x non drive, race x lite rim 28h
bmx... just laced today 3x all around ( got new rims... laziness took over as 3x is very simple and strong ) was previously laced with a 3x crow's foot pattern.
my fixed... stock wheels from felt..., radial front 3x rear
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Old 08-31-08, 03:02 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by J A Holman View Post
. Sheldon you ain't, never will be. He's respected you're not and it has to do with his knowledge and experience and contribution,.
why don't you go suck sheldon up already?
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Old 08-31-08, 03:05 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by chrissmedley View Post
so, there seems to be quite a bit of talk about radially-laced fronts and brakes. can someone provide some more solid information on the stress put on a radial wheel by brake calipers? in my mind, it makes absolute sense that brakes would slowly damage or untrue a radial front wheel yet, i see this set-up quite often and nobody seems to be complaining.

can anyone explain the ins and outs of this combination? or provide a link to someone reputable who can?
generally speaking, the only time this would become a problem would be if u locked up your front wheel and a sudden load was placed on the spokes. even then this is very minimal. the only time radial become a serious problem is with drive side applications and the use of disc brakes.


when you brake using disc you are slowing the wheel fromt he hub outward. that mean the rim and tire and spoke still have centrifugal force and inertia to cause the spoke damage.

using a rim brake, you are slowing that inertia down first and less torque is being applied to stop.

hope that helps
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