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Do I need to yell at the new guy?

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Do I need to yell at the new guy?

Old 03-01-10, 11:12 PM
  #1  
Nachoman
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Do I need to yell at the new guy?

New guy just joined our morning training ride. Hes making a ton of newbie mistakes. This morning, I politely, but firmly, told him to hold a straight line when he was swerving in our pace line.

I dont want to scare him off, because he's a nice guy and I enjoy his company. But hes making a ton of newbie mistakes and Id like to educate him without coming off like a pedantic jerk.

I guess the options are yell, politely tell him every time he does something wrong, dole out a single nugget of wisdom to him on each ride, or just keep my mouth shut and hope he improves on his own.

What do you think?
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Old 03-01-10, 11:18 PM
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Personally, I would say politely correct something you see that is wrong without going over the top. Let the little things go for now. Also, if you tell him something and he doesn't immediately fix it, give him a bit of time.
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Old 03-01-10, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Nachoman View Post
New guy just joined our morning training ride. He’s making a ton of newbie mistakes. This morning, I politely, but firmly, told him to hold a straight line when he was swerving in our pace line.

I don’t want to scare him off, because he's a nice guy and I enjoy his company. But he’s making a ton of newbie mistakes and I’d like to educate him without coming off like a pedantic jerk.

I guess the options are yell, politely tell him every time he does something wrong, dole out a single nugget of wisdom to him on each ride, or just keep my mouth shut and hope he improves on his own.

What do you think?
I think you were right to do exactly what you did. Each mistake warrants a polite but firm correction. However, if he continues to make the same mistakes and is a danger to others a little yelling may go a long way.
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Old 03-01-10, 11:47 PM
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what is he doing? maybe im making the same mistake
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Old 03-02-10, 12:34 AM
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I think u did the right thing, but at the sametime newbies need to be in back of the group just learning or looking at the rest of the pack how they ride. By experience back in the day (from where im from) newbies where in the back of the pack for at least one week, and usually one or two mentors were teaching them some COMMON SENSE and other stuff so they could ride with the pack and feel more confidence. But at the opposite here in the states i have been with people that get nervous even if you are at their back wheel for too long, even one told me one day "we will have an accident with you at the back, you will cause an accident". Riding competitively since im 14, two panams... and i still can't figure it out the reason this jerk said that. Different countries... different non sense sometimes.

Groups are pretty special sometimes and this is a sport, even if for you is something to be taking seriously, many are doing this for fun, not to be yell at or to get a bad look from somebody. Personally I achieved some stuff back in the day and now im a nobody but even from nobody's u can learn a lot. Nobody knows it all to start with... Newbies needs to learn...
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Old 03-02-10, 01:23 AM
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i believe what is happening is that the newbie may be getting rattled/nervous/angry/pity etc everytime he is being yelled at. your message/lesson is lost. what he does remember is being yelled at. people react differently at being yelled at, irrespective of what is being said. it is obvious that since he is repeating the mistakes, your yelling is NOT working. try the gentle educated way of teaching.

you are lucky you can try another approach with the newbie because if it was me, you wont get a 2nd try yelling.
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Old 03-02-10, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ls0725 View Post
i believe what is happening is that the newbie may be getting rattled/nervous/angry/pity etc everytime he is being yelled at. your message/lesson is lost. what he does remember is being yelled at. people react differently at being yelled at, irrespective of what is being said. it is obvious that since he is repeating the mistakes, your yelling is NOT working. try the gentle educated way of teaching.

you are lucky you can try another approach with the newbie because if it was me, you wont get a 2nd try yelling.
Did you even read the op?

The newb in question wasn't yelled at. There's nothing about "repeating the mistakes" in the post. And your ridiculous statement, "you won't get a 2nd try yelling " tells me that you are probably one that needs to be yelled at.
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Old 03-02-10, 05:06 AM
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Time to put on the 'ol teacher hat and take him under your wing.
Explain to him the errors he is making, their cause and effect on him and the group and offer to help him become a better rider...not faster but better.
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Old 03-02-10, 05:13 AM
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I don't yell at guys like that. I go over to them and tell them they're doing great, and then explain to them what they're doing wrong and why it's bad for them and the rest of us. And that always works.

It's really not very complicated.
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Old 03-02-10, 05:53 AM
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Is he deliberately making the mistakes/not even trying, or is it that he simply lacks the bike skills to ride in thee group?

If he repeatedly makes mistakes that he can avoid and so endangers others safety, that's one thing. But if it is simply a matter of him not having the experience or skills, then yelling wont really help, will it?

V.
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Old 03-02-10, 06:01 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
I don't yell at guys like that. I go over to them and tell them they're doing great, and then explain to them what they're doing wrong and why it's bad for them and the rest of us. And that always works.

It's really not very complicated.
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Old 03-02-10, 07:16 AM
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I like PCad's way. I haven't joined a group yet, and mainly because I read about all these jackasses who yell at people and this and that. How is anyone ever supposed to learn if all you do is yell at them and make them feel like a moron. I'm pretty sure you weren't born knowing how to ride with a group and all the etiquette that goes along with it. The more people act that way the more extinct group rides will become. We only have two groups in my town, which in all fairness has a population of 55,000. If I were experienced I wouldn't be driving others away, I'd be doing what I can to give them constructive criticism and positive reinforcement.
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Old 03-02-10, 07:27 AM
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I'm a newb, getting close to a year of riding. I have been on two group rides and have a lot to learn about riding with a group.

One problem I can't seem to fix is keeping as straight line as the rest of the riders. Even when riding alone I find myself "twitching" around when pressing on the pedals hard.

I average about 125 miles a week and get plenty of practice but can't seem to get over this. It has kept me from joining more groups since I afraid I'm going to cause a problem.
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Old 03-02-10, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by zerocool33 View Post
I like PCad's way. I haven't joined a group yet, and mainly because I read about all these jackasses who yell at people and this and that. How is anyone ever supposed to learn if all you do is yell at them and make them feel like a moron. I'm pretty sure you weren't born knowing how to ride with a group and all the etiquette that goes along with it. The more people act that way the more extinct group rides will become. We only have two groups in my town, which in all fairness has a population of 55,000. If I were experienced I wouldn't be driving others away, I'd be doing what I can to give them constructive criticism and positive reinforcement.
When you're in the group yelling is about the only way to communicate. Try to listen to what they say and let the emotion roll off.

But Pcad's method sounds rather nice. I don't think group rides are shrinking though, certainly not around here.
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Old 03-02-10, 07:59 AM
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Talk to the entire group, like "hey guys, let's watch our lines and pull through smoothly" That way you aren't calling one guy out. It is a safety concern, and if let go you'll have guys who simply won't follow a guy like that in a paceline and you don't have full participation. Everyone is in charge of their front wheel.

This is easily fixed with relaxing arm tension. You can't just tell him to "hold a straight line" That is like a little league coach yelling for his pitcher to "THROW STRIKES"

You've got to give him the tools to change. Slack your arms, change your gears while pulling through. Look back through your torso and arm instead of over your shoulder to see if you are clear.

This is important because safety is important.
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Old 03-02-10, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
I don't yell at guys like that. I go over to them and tell them they're doing great, and then explain to them what they're doing wrong and why it's bad for them and the rest of us. And that always works.

It's really not very complicated.
This type of approach would certainly have a positive impact on me--and would make me want to work harder to gain acceptance by the mentor offering the advice and the group.

Yelling, in any venue (unless we're under enemy fire, LOL), isn't going to work as well for me in terms of learning/improving, and most likely will work out even worse for the one doing the yelling.
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Old 03-02-10, 08:04 AM
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Put the hammer down, and drop him. If he comes back for another ride, repeat. If he keeps coming back, and eventually manages to finish with the group, then you can talk to him.

There are time honored protocols for these things.
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Old 03-02-10, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Nachoman View Post
New guy just joined our morning training ride. He’s making a ton of newbie mistakes. This morning, I politely, but firmly, told him to hold a straight line when he was swerving in our pace line.

I don’t want to scare him off, because he's a nice guy and I enjoy his company. But he’s making a ton of newbie mistakes and I’d like to educate him without coming off like a pedantic jerk.

I guess the options are yell, politely tell him every time he does something wrong, dole out a single nugget of wisdom to him on each ride, or just keep my mouth shut and hope he improves on his own.

What do you think?

If you're riding at a pace where you can talk to him about it, then talk to him about it. If you're riding at a pace where you're going hard enough that all you can get out is a quick burst of speech, yell. The "We're going to yell at you" thread was about a training ride that was populated by, iirc, cat 1, elite type racers, hammering at max capacity. In that case, yelling is totally appropriate.

Maybe you should encourage him to stay on the back of the paceline until he feels a little more comfortable riding with you.
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Old 03-02-10, 08:08 AM
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Team Cinzano maneuver???

Just kidding, I agree with PCAD's suggestions.
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Old 03-02-10, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
I don't yell at guys like that. I go over to them and tell them they're doing great, and then explain to them what they're doing wrong and why it's bad for them and the rest of us. And that always works.

It's really not very complicated.
Pcad's making sense here. Yelling is likely to make someone either angry or more nervous, both of which make may make accidents more likely.

Save the yelling for the really dumb mistakes that are likely to kill you.
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Old 03-02-10, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Sardian View Post

One problem I can't seem to fix is keeping as straight line as the rest of the riders. Even when riding alone I find myself "twitching" around when pressing on the pedals hard. .
Look farther up the road. Keep your elbows bent. Relax your upper body. When you are alone, practice riding on the "fog line" on the side of the road (if it's safe to do so).


When I tell newbies about their mistakes I try to phrase it like "you'll be faster if ....." so it's advice, not criticism. Speaking of which, once you learn to ride a straight line under power you will be faster and smoother.
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Old 03-02-10, 08:23 AM
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I want to ride with Uncle Pcad.
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Old 03-02-10, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by zerocool33 View Post
I like PCad's way. I haven't joined a group yet, and mainly because I read about all these jackasses who yell at people and this and that. How is anyone ever supposed to learn if all you do is yell at them and make them feel like a moron. I'm pretty sure you weren't born knowing how to ride with a group and all the etiquette that goes along with it. The more people act that way the more extinct group rides will become. We only have two groups in my town, which in all fairness has a population of 55,000. If I were experienced I wouldn't be driving others away, I'd be doing what I can to give them constructive criticism and positive reinforcement.
X2!

One reason I don't ride with a group (3 or more). I like to ride with my own pace, and I'm not trying to be a pro, just a recreational.
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Old 03-02-10, 08:25 AM
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talk to him before the ride. thats what i've seen work the best. he'll be off the bike and best able to process what you're telling him, then he can put it to practice when the ride starts.

i also agree with new guys riding in the back for a while to see how it all works.
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Old 03-02-10, 08:28 AM
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I never really did much group riding until last summer and I was grateful for all the feedback and advice other riders gave me. Now, if it was someone who could hardly ride themselves, I didn't really appreciate it. But, normally it was someone much more experienced than me and their advice was helpful to me and appreciated since I didn't want to cause any crashes. However, I played a lot of competitive sports growing up, so also have a very thick skin when getting yelled at/coached/etc. And, I would also tell people in smaller rides, like 5-8 people, "Hey, I'm pretty new at this group riding, so point out what I'm doing wrong, if you see it."

And, I should add, I had ridden a lot by the time I joined a group, so I was pretty decent at holding a line and general bike handling.

Yeah, just some gentle coaching and advice. I don't see how anyone wouldn't appreciate that, especially because anyone with eyes can see the people around them are better, more skilled riders.
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