Altair 4

My daughter enjoys cycling, but really hasn't done any long distance riding. She's got an idea of forming a bike club at school this year with the goal of having a group ride on the Great Allegheny Passage.

For those unfamiliar with the GAP, it's a 150 mile long, mostly crushed limestone, rail-to-trail running from Pittsburgh, PA (near our school district) to Cumberland, MD.

I've ridden the full length of the GAP over 3 days, credit card style staying at B&Bs, and have ridden many of the more scenic sections separately. I'm trying to help her lay out some ideas on how to prepare for such a ride. Our school district is pretty close to Pittsburgh.

Some early thoughts are getting any participants used to "saddle" time to handle the ride, organizing where to stay or camp, qualifying the bikes (I don't think a single speed or cruiser is anywhere near optimal). SAG is another area that needs to be addressed.

Somewhere along the way, I recall reading here or elsewhere on the web, a printable training schedule along with organizational points (trip plan, meeting places, and other trip requirements like money, time, meals, etc.) specifically for the GAP. I can't seem to find it again despite some searching. Does anyone here have a link to something like that?

Any other suggestions welcome. Thanks!

indyfabz

Transportation home, assuming you don't include that in SAG. Maybe have parents pick them up at the end (or drop them off if starting in Cumberland).


Size of the group might influence indoor lodging selection.


Meals?

mstateglfr 

1- adults. They are needed and need to be fully dedicated to handing everything. Lots of em are needed...these are teenagers. For parents to trust handing their kids over, the adult leaders of the ride need to be known(so no 'we will get some') and have their stuff together.

2- Its 150mi of path...training rides wont be incredibly difficult. Do a few 25mi rides over a week. Then do a couple 50mi rides over a week. Then a 25mi ride. Then a couple back to back 50mi rides.
8 rides like that would have 300mi of riding completed and should be plenty for high schoolers to ride a 150mi path.

3- Given where you live there could be plenty of hill training, though with the very steady incline on that path, you wont encounter any hills so maybe limit hill riding to a couple rides. Find some paths around you that are crushed limestone so the kids are confident on that.

4- A packing list needs to be made for the trip. Detailed and specific is key. The kids need to set up and teardown camp each day, so they should understand what is expected before the trip.

5- Rules and expectations. Detailed and specific is key. Clear expectations for behavior and detailed descriptions of what the kids need to do in camp(cleaning up, cooking, packing up gear, etc).



I trained and rode RAGBRAI with a large group of youth this spring and summer. It was 7 days long and 430mi. For training, most of the kids rode over 1000mi and most of the training rides was county highway hill training.
I was very surprised at how quickly the younger kids(12 and 13) caught on. Based on the trail you are looking at and the time frame, high school kids should be able to ride it without issue once they have done some training rides.



There is a ton more, but those are the 5 most important that I could think of that you should probably have a plan for before creating the club and trying to get kids to join.
If my kids were asked to do a ride like this without adults in place and/or details set up, I wouldnt consider it. If plans and adults were in place though...a lot of concern goes away and itd be something to consider.

VT_Speed_TR

Sounds like a great idea. I would caution on the idea of "qualifying bikes" though. These are teenagers after all and can easily do 50 miles on the GAP on most anything, likely a skateboard if they had to. Don't apply "old folk" criteria on gear for the trip. You won't be off into the wilderness, just have a bailout plan for those that are really suffering. Though I wouldn't make that plan common knowledge to them. I think having them carry their own gear, but having a SAG meet you each night at your camp would work nicely. That way the SAG can provide runs for food or whatever. I think part of the prep for the trip would include reviewing what the potential weather is like at trip time, what are the benefits of different gear/clothing, and what are you going to do to have fun/entertainment besides just riding. You don't want to exclude some kid just because they ride an old beater mtn bike or SS, when they feel that they can do the trip.

BlarneyHammer

As far as qualifying both the bikes and their riders, you could have a simple pass-off test: ride 50 miles in six hours or less (or something similar), or you don't get to go.

edthesped

Agreed, we take the local Boy Scout Troop on the GAP/C&O every year and most of their bikes are very low end. We do start doing maintenance sessions about a month before the trip. If you have SAG you don't have to worry about carrying loads and that helps immensely. Keep the rides down to around 40 miles/day and offer to let parents come. We typically have 2 SAG vehicles minimum and hopscotch them so there is rescue, water and snacks around every 10 miles. Some of the scouts are as young as 11 and in all of the years I've been going only one scout bailed, we later noticed that he had a severe brake rub and once that was corrected he was back on the trail. My daughter liked doing the rides so much she and a friend did the Pit to DC trip for their senior trip. For prep rides I'd say do around town rides as it will bring a little fun into the ride, kids need fun. We usually do the Waterfront to Market Square for lunch or coffee with a ride through the waterfalls at the convention center and a trip around the Point then back. Boston to Sutersville for ice cream with a stop off at Dravo Cemetary is also a nice ride.

edit: I should qualify that we don't do the entire trip, we brake it down into 80 mile segments to fit into weekend camping trips.

We always encourage the kids to take frequent breaks and enjoy the scenery with the only time pressure being available daylight.

mdilthey

Dang, I'm glad you guys weren't my parents!

If you're not teaching your teenagers how to think and act independently, they won't do it when they're adults, either.

mstateglfr 

When i say adults shluld handle everything, i mean there needs to be a plan and an adult to ultimately ensure the plan is executed.

I agree that teens should learn to act and think independently. To that point, its why i mentioned the kids should be responsible for setting up and taking down tents, cleaning up camp, and handling their baggage.
Ultimantely though, an adult nees to oversee these things to help redirect when necessary. Thru this process comes the independence you speak of.


Having clear processes, clear delegation for daily responsibilities, and clear expectations does a couple things.
1- it helps the kids know what to expect and what is expected. This allows them to succeed, learn to work in a group, practice helping others, and act independently.
2- it helps the parents know what to expect and what is expected. As a parent, you are entrusting your child with others for multiple days. Knowing there are processes in place is important. Its why scout troops, summer camps, and other groups like those have detailed processes and responsibility assignments.


A ride like what is being proposed could be fantastic. It could also be a terrible disaster.
It will hinge on how well the event is run, and having plans in place will help ensure the event is run well.

Kids can still work on thinking and acting independently even with plans and processes in place.

alan s 

Don't over complicate this. Keep it simple and make it fun. Kids can easily ride the distance without any special training. Make sure you plan fun stops along the way to keep it interesting. The GAP itself can get a bit monotonous. Looking forward to doing other things will keep them moving along.

mdilthey

The best moments of my life were the "terrible disasters."

What do you think would happen if the teenagers were allowed to do the trip of their own accord? if you taught them how to set up tents and make camp, and then let them go off and do it? They would not cave miserably and cry, they'd work together and address challenges as a team, and ultimately learn more about self-reliance.

You obviously have parenting completely figured out, so I highly doubt that one person from the internet will change your view, but consider this...

When I was 12, my parents let me walk to school on my own. It was about 2 miles through downtown Tarrytown, NY, a hub town for the commuter rail system, where GE dumped all the PCB's into the hudson, and a town with a vibrant population of immigrants from all over the world - a third of my 4th grade class was being taught english in separate classrooms, since my town was 45% hispanic and most didn't know how. There were lots of people who didn't look like me, lots of people from the city. Lots of languages, some crime, not a lot of gang activity but plenty of teen drug use.

So, not your farm-town, podunk spot. We were 20 minutes from Manhattan. It was pretty urban. A lot of the other moms in the neighborhood didn't really buy into what my mom was doing, a few complained.

I would take my brothers with me to get ice cream in the center of downtown. They were 10, 8, and 6. We were allowed to go together, but we had to stay in a team. If we went to a friend's house, we had to call home to let my mom know which house we were at. Otherwise, we were free to roam.

When I got to high school, I had no curfew. My parents didn't ask me to call home, but I did anyways. I took the train to NYC when I was 15 to walk around and explore, on a pretty regular basis. When I was 17, I even had a job in the city, and commuted on the train daily.

I'd hang out in the evenings in Scarsdale. HUGE teen drug abuse problem. I saw everything. The city was a hub for hard stuff like cocaine, and the kids were loaded because Scarsdale is the most affluent town in the U.S. We'd hang out behind the 7-11 until 2 or 3 AM, watching people skateboard and playing hackey-sack. I dated a little, but mostly just hung out with my friend Sam, because neither of us ever tried drugs and we didn't drink. Nobody cared.

So, for all intents and purposes, I should have grown up to be a troubled kid. I had no supervision whatsoever, was left completely to my own devices, had to figure out how to get around on the train and on a bike on my own, and yet, myself and all three of my younger brothers are now college-educated, in good jobs or graduate school (or both). Harrison, the youngest, goes to Jiulliard. George works at Lincoln Center. Sam works for State Street. Shouldn't we be hoodlums?

No. Because we knew we had our parent's trust, and we didn't want to lose it. We had no rebellious streak because we had nothing to rebel against- we lived unrestricted lives, not always easy, and we failed often, but when we did, we learned something about how the real world works.

I've been grateful my entire life that nobody was around to manage my life experiences. I have a very close relationship with my folks, and I think it's because they've treated me like an independent person from about the age of 5.

mstateglfr 

Wow, based on that smugly sarcastic last sentence, i see a sore spot of yours has been rubbed.

I didnt read your long experience. Tldr- you overcame some situation without adult help. Total guess...am i right?

Perfect, good news for you.

Here is the thing- this is a potential school club activity. It would be completely inapproriate for a school to support and endorse a dozen or more 14-17yo boys and girls to go off for 3+ days on their own to ride the trail without adults.

You are clearly and adventurer and are proud to 'buck the system' 'march to your own beat' and basically not conform when it suits you. Perfect, thats cool to do as an adult.
That approach isnt always cool for a school sponsored club which has young teenagers participating.




Edited to add- made the mistake of reading all that. At this point the thread is miles from the OP's topic. PM me if you want to continue to claim a total lack of oversight is how a school supported club should be run.

mdilthey

Likewise!

mdilthey

Hey OP, is this the trip itinerary thing you were looking for?

https://www.traillink.com/trail-itin...y-passage.aspx

tcarl

The Greenville Free Methodist Church in Greenville, IL used to (and I guess still does) take their high school students on a long bike tour (like 700 miles in two weeks) every four years. I'd think if you contacted them they could put you in touch with the organizers who could share exactly how they go about doing it. I know they started months in advance with training rides.

DropBarFan

Some friends' son went on a Scout 4-day C&O trip. He complained they went too slow, heh. Daily mileage was about 50-60 I think. I was pretty impressed by the organization: they had a pickup w/trailer & other vehicles to transport riders to start finish & camping gear to nightly spots. They told Scouts to ride certain distance training rides & told 'em what to pack. Most teenagers' have MTB's anyway so they work good for C&O. AFAIK they only did tent camping.

I haven't ridden the GAP so I trust your idea that single speed bikes are dubious for hs riders. But it's supposed to be fairly smooth so hopefully that helps the riders to avoid getting too saddle-sore. Starting a bike club is nice idea of Altair 4's daughter. I started a bike club in high school, low-key thing. We went on a weekend trip to Skyline Drive with near-zero planning but somehow it all came together, a guy was able to borrow a van for a sag wagon.

edthesped

Oh man, slow is an understatement! When with the scouts I must remind myself they are kids and this is really their trip not mine. Our rules are that everyone has to ride with a buddy or small group but can ride separately as a whole. There is usually a two to three hour spread between the first and last arrival to camp. I must admit I've never been able to ride sweep as it's agonizingly slow. My thought would have been to have a rotating sweep at every shuttle stop to share the misery but typically parents of younger scouts volunteer to take up the rear.

OP if you want to get together and discuss this let me know I'm local...

As for keeping it fun, one year a group of scouts did the ride with Burger King crowns taped to their helmets...

Altair 4

No, that's not it, but I'm bookmarking for the kiddo to look at. What I recall was an Excel spreeadsheet with a checklist of everything. It was an incredibly detailed and well thought product. Woulda saved her some time and served as an example. I like the link you found, though.

My kid has a mindset that she MUST be in front. She's often out of my sight when we ride together (that's the difference between teen legs and 50+ legs). I'm thinking that a group ride will stretch out pretty quickly.

Your comment about "agonizingly slow" reminded my of a church youth group ride. We had one kid who refused to shift her gears. At points, I had a hard time keeping my bike balanced and upright. I'm thinking that shouldn't be a problem at this age.

My daughter is thinking about approaching the phys ed teacher with her idea. I'm not sure how receptive the school will be - schools can be funny about stuff with concerns about liability (I get that - I work in insurance). I'm a tad concerned about a co-ed group. More about the boys taking over than other things.

Definitely will need parental involvement. They'll need some riders, the SAG support, and they'll need to gather up the camping gear. This is always an issue - parents don't volunteer to help.

I love the BK crown photo - definitely KOM!

And thanks for the offer of getting together. I'll keep you in mind! School starts next week and we'll see where this goes.

edthesped

My daughter was/is the same way, especially with the "Boy" Scouts. My son is typically somewhere in the middle and stops at every junk food stop he passes and yuks it up with his friends. Coed from a Boy Scout perspective wasn't much of an issue because all of the girls that rode parents came along. I'm not sure about school coed as mine are in all boys/girls schools. My guess would be to separate the two groups divided by the adults. In Boy Scouts adults can't tent with kids, even their own, but that may not be an issue with a school function.

Unfortunately I have done my last Scout bike trip as a parent as mine will be aged out by the next one, I spent the morning looking at pictures but can't really find any to post that show just the bikes without someone's face in it.

corrado33

They're teenagers. I'm not old enough to forget my high school days yet. If we went on a trip with members of the opposite sex, most of us would have snuck out to find our "significant" others for... fun times. I mean heck, we did this when we went on school trips with parents acting as GUARDS outside our motel rooms.

Just warning you.

mdilthey

Oh my, so unnatural, so unpure!

DropBarFan

I'm curious how the liability/insurance thing would work too. The high school probably has a ski club, perhaps they can give details on club formation rules. Girls-only trip makes sense to me, easier to get parental support & the girls would probably be more relaxed.

capejohn

When I rode the GAP, I got on my bike in Pittsburgh and started riding. The only planning I did was to get to Pittsburgh on a certain day. It's an easy ride to Cumberland and there are plenty of places to stay or camp.
My only advice is to not carry too much. One pair of clothes to sweat in and one pair not to sweat in. Tent, sleeping bag and maybe some very light cooking gear. However, food along the GAP is plentiful and inexpensive.

edthesped

But if it's a public school can you discriminate? Maybe I'm fortunate that the boys I've worked around have pretty much been gentlemen. This generation seems far more together than my generation was for sure.

DropBarFan

Tough question. Girls play on "boys'" football & baseball teams but track competition, for instance, still gender-segregated AFAIK. Maybe a co-ed trip would be more popular anyway.

I'd arrange for access to daily phone recharge. & kids might be more together but they forget stuff like crazy nowadays so double-checking the packing list is important.

indyfabz

One could articulate a rational basis (preventing fooling around while adults sleep) for having "same-sex" trips. so there probably would be nothing illegal about them.