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Will this Maillard Atom 70 freewheel fit on a modern wheel? (& other ?s)

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Will this Maillard Atom 70 freewheel fit on a modern wheel? (& other ?s)

Old 05-07-19, 06:54 PM
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Will this Maillard Atom 70 freewheel fit on a modern wheel? (& other ?s)

I've got these new wheels: 27" Sun CR18


And I've got this classic Maillard Atom 70 5-speed freewheel - that looks like it'll thread on?


that came off the Maillard 700 threaded hub:


My question is....will it? I read a quick blurb on Sheldon Brown saying old French freewheels will appear to start to thread onto modern hubs but eventually bind. Is this the case here?

Secondary question:
What tool do I need to remove that Maillard freewheel should I put it back on the Maillard hubs and build new wheels around them? Looks like the Parktool FR-4 - I just counted and it has 20 notches, so that looks to be it but I'd like to know for sure.

Tertiary question:
Will the original setup (hub + freewheel above) be about the same width as the new hub & a new 5 speed freewheel? I ask because the Maillard has the indentation inside the smallest ring (where the Maillard labeling is), but this one I am thinking of getting is flush/pokes out past the smallest ring?

Does it matter?

Thanks!
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Old 05-07-19, 07:02 PM
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I'd just get a better freewheel. Those wheels are likely 126 mm so you can thread on a 6 or 7 speed freewheel and a modern freewheel will give you better shifting. There is not much availability in terms of tooth range but you can find a 13-28 or a 14-28. IRD offers sizes but their freewheels are pricier.

If you really want to use this freewheel, you'll need to figure out whether the hub and freewheel are french threaded in which case it is a no go or english threaded.

If you're lucky, the hub will have some markings. If not, this thread has a lot of useful information

https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...questions.html

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Old 05-07-19, 07:25 PM
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Yes, no, maybe.... I'll get back

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Old 05-07-19, 07:40 PM
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You bought a Brand New threaded FW compatible hub in 2019 and are asking if one of the most pedestrian designs of obsolete '70's era FW 5 cog is compatible?
Congratulations, you win both the Rip Van Winkle award for obsolete hardware and the award for spending the most $ to do so.

PS: It's not 1970 anymore, thankfully.

-Bandera
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Old 05-07-19, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandera
You bought a Brand New threaded FW compatible hub in 2019 and are asking if one of the most pedestrian designs of obsolete '70's era FW 5 cog is compatible?
Congratulations, you win both the Rip Van Winkle award for obsolete hardware and the award for spending the most $ to do so.

PS: It's not 1970 anymore, thankfully.

-Bandera
Well, the wheels are new, yeah, but the old hubs/FW came off the bike I am rebuilding which I got with all it's old parts for cheap. I needed new wheels because the old ones were too damaged.
Sometimes things work. Sometimes they don't. I'm assuming by your response the answer is no, which is fine, but why not check? I'd love to use as much of the original pieces as possible.
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Old 05-07-19, 09:11 PM
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I suggest you try threading it on—slowly, carefully. You’ll know pretty soon if it’s French-threaded or English. In any case, then remove it and buy a new one (but as indicated above, you might be shoving a 126mm spaced hub in a frame set up for 120mm, which is its own problem to solve—usually via cold setting the rear triangle).
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Old 05-07-19, 09:53 PM
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Those hubs are worth selling. Heck I'd buy them and throw in the proper freewheel,

But yes you'll likely have to spread your frame for the new wheels.
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Old 05-08-19, 02:03 AM
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If the freewheel is French threaded you will quickly know when you attempt to thread it on. Only the most ham-handed truck mechanic is going to succeed in damaging anything by doing a test fit. It is more likely than not that it will fit. If the freewheel is French threaded hang on to it. Someone else does want it. Scarce in that condition.

The wheel might have an overlocknut dimension (widest point) of 120mm or it could be 126 or it could be minor variation on either of those. It could even be a 130 or 135 to fit modern bikes. We just don't know. Only a person physically there can put a caliper on it. If hub is too wide it may not go into frame without forcing. If hub is too wide there might be axle hanging out on right side. With potential for overshifting past small sprocket and dropping chain onto axle. That can be controlled by adjusting derailleur limit screws. Which is not best fix but done all the time. But no one here knows what dimension either this wheel or the frame has.

That is one of the best freewheels ever made. You can't buy that quality any more. Reason for doing vintage.
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Old 05-08-19, 07:01 AM
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The hub is likely English thread (you can check by threading a known English thread bottom bracket lockring onto the hub), but I suspect your freewheel is metric (aka "French") thread. An English thread Atom freewheel should have a rectangular mark on the back of the body; I don't see one in your picture.


Source: Sutherland's 4th Edition

You can check the freewheel thread in a similar manner by threading a known English thread bottom bracket adjustable cup into the freewheel body.
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Old 05-08-19, 11:30 AM
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Great info, thanks!

can anyone confirm that tool I mentioned in my first post to use to fit that Maillard freewheel for removal will work? Parktool FR-4?
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Old 05-08-19, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
The hub is likely English thread (you can check by threading a known English thread bottom bracket lockring onto the hub), ...
I wouldn't trust an English-threaded lockring to NOT thread onto a French-threaded hub.
I would instead use a standard 9mm or 10mmX1mm-pitch axle to guage the threads on the hub, looking at the threads (not) meshing well in front of a lighted background (like a computer screen).

The English threaded lockring is slightly bigger in diameter than French/metric, and is thin enough that any thread-pitch difference might not prevent it's being easily threaded fully onto a French-threaded hub.

I have verified many cases of loose tolerances of freewheel threads, not that they all made the parts fit loose, but that the expected measurement or fit was different from one like-threaded part to another. So when dealing with possibly-French freewheel threads, I check the thread pitch first as this is one measurement that comes up consistently good in terms of tolerances. Even a standard M6x1 bolt can be a useful gage of French bb/freewheel threading, while an English-threaded bb cup can be a useful gage of English threading.
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Old 05-08-19, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by the sci guy
can anyone confirm that tool I mentioned in my first post to use to fit that Maillard freewheel for removal will work? Parktool FR-4?
Yes, the Park FR-4 will work with splined Atom freewheels. It also works on Zeus, Everest, and late-production Regina freewheels.
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Old 05-14-19, 02:21 AM
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British & French Thread FWs and Hubs

@the sci guy

Better late... I had to take some measurements and pictures then I lost track of the thread.

I'd be willing to make a large wager that the freewheel threads on the new wheel are ISO (almost the same as British).

The Atom 70 freewheel also most likely has British threads. By the 1980's Atom and Maillard started stamping the thread type into the freewheel bodies.

Atom 77 "NARROW" 6 speed freewheel, front side. These were the same width as Suntour Ultra 6 freewheel and were designed to fit on 120mm hubs (most of them) or 126mm hubs.


Back side with M34.7 X 1.00 and FRENCH stamped in.


Standard width Atom 77 6 speed freewheels where just stamped MADE IN FRANCE on the front and the thread size in the rear.




The OP's Maillard 700 hub pictured above has British threads. They were made both Metric and British. The Metric hubs had no markings but the British threaded hubs had a ring behind the threads.

Here's a Metric Maillard 700 hub measured with a metric thread pitch gauge.



The only accurate way to distinguish metric threaded hubs from British, ISO or Italian threads is with a thread pitch gauge or an optical comparator. Notice how the gauge fits into the threads. It would not fit flush in British or Italian threads.

Calipers, micrometers, even thread mics can give misleading results because of the small differences in the dimensional standards and the LARGE differences in manufacturing tolerances. Add to that wear or damage caused by installing and removing freewheels reduces the diameter of the soft aluminum threads.

Thread Pitch Gauges are cheap. You can get a metric and British one for ~$10.

FREEWHEEL THREAD STANDARDS

FRENCH 34.7 mm X 1mm (1.366” x 25.4 TPI)

BRITISH 1.370” x 24 TPI (34.8 x 1.06 mm)

ISO 1.375" x 24 TPI (34.9 x 1.06 mm)

ITALIAN 35 mm X 24 TPI (1.378" x 1.06 mm)

French hub threads have the smallest outside diameter.

ISO, British and Italian freewheels will start to thread onto a French hub but will bind up after a few turns. If those freewheels are forced on they will damage the metric threads and can spin off under load destroying the hub.

ISO and British freewheels are interchangeable.

ISO freewheels fit Italian threaded hubs.

Italian threads have the largest outside diameter. Italian freewheels can be used on British threaded hubs but should not be switched back and forth with British freewheels.

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Old 05-14-19, 04:56 AM
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Can I add my 2 cents from last night's search for French Threaded freewheels for clients and echo and emphasize what @dddd and @verktyg add to this discussion from above?


Not all Atom, Normandy, or Maillard freewheels are marked accurately. I found several examples where they neither had the "Rectangular Punch Mark" (and were blank) nor had the specific threading stamped into the bottom of the inner body--- and some were French threaded and others were BSO/ISO threaded. My verification method was by using a Sugino ISO BB and a TA French BB threaded into the freewheel.

I used two Suntour Perfects as my test dummies--- one marked "M" for metric or French threading and the other blank for ISO threading.

So be careful with the Atoms, Normandys and Maillards.
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Old 05-14-19, 08:47 AM
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Excellent info, thanks!
In the end, I ended up getting a Shimano 5-speed freewheel for the new wheels. But I've saved the Maillard hubs & freewheel and I'll just use them together and build a new wheel around them for a future project, keeping the mated pair together and not having to worry about compatibility!

I think I'll pick up one of those thread measuring do-jobs though, for sure.
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Old 05-14-19, 02:49 PM
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^^ Wise move sir
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Old 05-14-19, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ryansu
^^ Wise move sir
Yes.

Those Mailard 700 hubs were top class.
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Old 05-14-19, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by the sci guy
I ended up getting a Shimano 5-speed freewheel for the new wheels.
Good move.
A new 5 cog Shimano FW will shift far better than any '70's design, won't wobble (much) or clank alarmingly and can be easily removed with a handy bench vise and FW tool.

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Old 05-15-19, 03:39 AM
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Atom, Normandy, Maillard Freewheels

Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh
Can I add my 2 cents from last night's search for French Threaded freewheels for clients and echo and emphasize what @dddd and @verktyg add to this discussion from above?
By all means....


Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh
Not all Atom, Normandy, or Maillard freewheels are marked accurately. I found several examples where they neither had the "Rectangular Punch Mark" (and were blank) nor had the specific threading stamped into the bottom of the inner body--- and some were French threaded and others were BSO/ISO threaded. My verification method was by using a Sugino ISO BB and a TA French BB threaded into the freewheel.

I used two Suntour Perfects as my test dummies--- one marked "M" for metric or French threading and the other blank for ISO threading.

So be careful with the Atoms, Normandys and Maillards.
Pastor Bob.... I'll raise you deux centimes...



During the 70's most of the lower priced and mid range bikes that we sold were French made. Back then it was safe to assume that those bikes had all French (metric) threads. There was a good Motobecane and also a good Peugeot/Raleigh shop near us so we didn't get to work on many of those brands.

Around 1978, the Peugeot shop started fading away so we began to get some Peugeots in for service. We noticed that some of the late 70's U-08s where coming through with British threaded pedals and freewheels. We suspected that they were made or assembled in Canada and started checking the threads on all of those bikes that we worked on.

Prior to that, it was a safe assumption that French bikes with original Atom or Normandy freewheels were metric thread.

Same thing with replacement freewheels. We imported 14-28T Normandy French thread freewheels loose packed in wooden crates of 50 or 100 freewheels. I think that they cost us about $3.00 each with shipping and duty.

The rare Atom or Normandy freewheels with British threads usually came on British bikes and had a mark indicating the threads on the back side. I remember we had a few Atom 14-28T freewheels with British threads in red and white cardboard boxes.

It appears to me that moving into the 80's as metric threaded freewheels were becoming less common and Maillard was changing their product offering, they started marking metric threaded freewheels rather than ones with British threads???

By the mid 70's the 2 most common French freewheels were the Maillard-Normandy (large splines) and the Atom, small splines.

Maillard- Normandy Freewheels usually came on lower priced bikes.



Atom freewheels had screw-on sprockets that interchanged with Regina. It was somewhat easy to build custom freewheels with a range from 13-34T.



We always looked down on Maillard- Normandy freewheels as they were a perfect match for Simplex Delrin derailleurs but this flyer points out several features that I wasn't aware of.

This 1977 ad points out the advantage of having a larger splined bore: The outside and inside bearing are the same size with 90 1/8" balls which balances the forces better, plus the large remover will fit over any axle nut. (From velo-pages.com)



By the 1980's Maillard offered a wider variety of freewheel models so all guesses are off.

Here's an oddity that I ran across. I'm not sure whether it's a good Photoshop job or ??? A Regina freewheel with ATOM stamped in???


Something else I've never seen before, a 14-34T 5 speed Regina Freewheeel, British/ISO threads.




BTW, Pastor Bob I like you idea of using BB cups to check the thread size.

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Old 05-15-19, 04:23 AM
  #20  
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@verktyg thank you for your encyclopedic knowledge and research effort. Very informative and helpful.

The next time a person recommends the flush and dribble method, I'll post the above Maillard-Normandy Ad with a circle around bullet point number 6!

That is an interesting Atom-Regina! Now with that said, I've had some successes and some failures in transplanting the Atom inner body into a Regina outer body that had mangled removal notches. The limiting factor that I've found is that not all Regina Corsa, Extra, etc., bodies have the same internal shapes.

In some cases the inner "dome" on the outer body, which fits over the "shoulder" on the inner body, have different profiles and dimensions. They may be slight, but what occurs is that if not matched the two rub against each other. Hopefully these pictures provide enough illustrative information to better describe or compliment my words.





In my experience, by the 1980s, the Atom, Maillard, Normandy, Sachs are all clearly marked as either Metric or ISO and by the 1990s, Sachs Maillard and Sachs are only producing ISO threaded freewheels.

More 2 cents worth of info from NH!
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Old 05-15-19, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by verktyg
This 1977 ad points out the advantage of having a larger splined bore: The outside and inside bearing are the same size with 90 1/8" balls which balances the forces better, plus the large remover will fit over any axle nut. (From velo-pages.com)

Another thing I liked about the large-bore Normandy freewheels was the snap-in plastic seals to protect the bearings. You could fill the body with oil, snap the seals in place, and it would retain the oil for quite some time. "Rig for silent running!"

But the large bore meant that 14T was the smallest cog that would fit, and the lads in marketing didn't like that.
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Old 05-15-19, 11:18 AM
  #22  
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14T Smallest Sprocket On Maillard Normandy FW

Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
....But the large bore meant that 14T was the smallest cog that would fit, and the lads in marketing didn't like that.
That was our objection too.

Looking back before 13T small sprockets became de riguer on performance bikes, Peugeot PX-10s and Gitane Tour de France bikes came standard with 14-24T or 14-26T Maillard-Normandy freewheels. The ad above seems to justify their use on those bikes.

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Old 05-15-19, 11:59 AM
  #23  
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I remember the early-'70's PX10 bikes coming with 14-21t freewheels exclusively, but I guess that had grown to 24(?) or 26t by 1980.
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