Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Mystery Sturmey Archer internals?? Might be S2C?.

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Mystery Sturmey Archer internals?? Might be S2C?.

Old 07-03-19, 05:58 AM
  #1  
Bicyclz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bicyclz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 219
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 15 Posts
Mystery Sturmey Archer internals?? Might be S2C?.

Came across these SA (I presume: ) internals recently. NOS in a greasy, polythene bag. (Good sign?)
Clearly been 'on the shelf' a while.
Madly perhaps, it came along with a fair 1985 531C Orbit Gold Medal machine off UK Ebay...



No labels/other info. No stampings to indicate anything.

I'm familiar with SA 3 & 4 speed internals, but this one I never saw before.


So, after some research, I think I've narrowed it down to S2C. But not sure...

Can anyone help nail it?

It is different from the current(?) S2C HSX157, but very similar, so could be an early version?
S2C introduced in 2010 I believe.

Bit of a mystery anyway, right now.
(I'm aware I might be totally wrong here! If it was a Sachs, for example: )

Can't use it if I can't find the right shell: )
I've ridden a small wheeler previously with the S2C set up & loved it, but I never saw the internals...
Bicyclz is offline  
Old 07-03-19, 06:08 AM
  #2  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 8,108
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 937 Post(s)
Liked 652 Times in 367 Posts
Originally Posted by Bicyclz
Came across these SA (I presume: ) internals recently. NOS in a greasy, polythene bag. (Good sign?)
Clearly been 'on the shelf' a while.
Madly perhaps, it came along with a fair 1985 531C Orbit Gold Medal machine off UK Ebay...



No labels/other info. No stampings to indicate anything.

I'm familiar with SA 3 & 4 speed internals, but this one I never saw before.


So, after some research, I think I've narrowed it down to S2C. But not sure...

Can anyone help nail it?

It is different from the current(?) S2C HSX157, but very similar, so could be an early version?
S2C introduced in 2010 I believe.

Bit of a mystery anyway, right now.
(I'm aware I might be totally wrong here! If it was a Sachs, for example: )

Can't use it if I can't find the right shell: )
I've ridden a small wheeler previously with the S2C set up & loved it, but I never saw the internals...
I'm quite certain it's not a coaster brake unit. (The C in the nomenclature indicates coaster brake.) It does not look like a current production Sturmey Archer. Perhaps Sachs or Bendix.
The coaster brake version of modern SA 2 speed hubs is a substantially different design from the non coaster brake version.
Dan Burkhart is online now  
Old 07-03-19, 07:26 AM
  #3  
Bicyclz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bicyclz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 219
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 15 Posts
Well Dan I'm very interested in your ideas here.
I'd just been looking at your Youtube vid of the S2C machine before I posted this: )

Thought it best to ask the Q here though: )

I'm thinking here now that I should dismantle it & look at it properly.
The twin Pawls set-up is the same as S2C though??
After your saying no coaster brake, I'm thinking S2.
I freely admit I'm puzzled as I write: )

It's slightly/quite/really annoyingly bugging me right now & there isn't much online about it that I can find to settle it...

More research required here..
But, I got a nice bottle of a new white wine to sample as I proceed.
So I persevere. I do lead a hard life really: )

Last edited by Bicyclz; 07-03-19 at 10:21 AM. Reason: typo
Bicyclz is offline  
Old 07-03-19, 08:13 AM
  #4  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 8,108
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 937 Post(s)
Liked 652 Times in 367 Posts
Originally Posted by Bicyclz
Well Dan I'm very interested in your ideas here.
I'd just been looking at your Youtube vid of the S2C machine before I posted this: )

Thought it best to ask the Q here though: )

I'm thinking here now that I should dismantle it & look at it properly.
The twin Pawls set-up is the same as S2C though??
After your saying no coaster brake, I'm thinking S2.
I freely admit I'm puzzled as I write: )

It's slightly/quite/really annoyingly bugging me right now & there isn't much online about it that I can find to settle it...

More research required here..
But, I got a nice bottle of a new white wine to sample as I proceed.
So I persevere. I do lead hard life really: )
Yeah, I'm quite confident it is a two speed from the look of it. The axle is solid, not hollow?
Dan Burkhart is online now  
Old 07-04-19, 02:01 AM
  #5  
Bicyclz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bicyclz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 219
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 15 Posts
The axle is hollow on the drive side, but introducing an SA indicator does nothing. It's solid on the LH side, just a 5mm deep hole in the end.

So I dismantled the drive side to reveal the peg that takes an indicator! I tried several SA indicators but the peg thread is too small for them.



I also noticed a pic of Sachs internals with the copper coloured pawl on the drive side... Most Sachs have the brake though.

So, it seems it may be a Fichtel & Sachs after all. But, a 2 speed with a trigger??
Thoughts now are: Is it a 2 speed, or possibly, three?

Looking at a 1966 SA S2 diagram shows the pawls with the usual tiny springs, but this one has a circlip. Also no large caged ballring on the 66 version.

The axle length looks to be 162mm.

Still at the research stage here I reckon...
Bicyclz is offline  
Old 07-04-19, 04:42 AM
  #6  
Kovkov
Full Member
 
Kovkov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 390

Bikes: 1957 Alpa Special, 1963 Condor Delta, 1967 Tigra Sprint, 1977 Oltenia, 1987 Mondia, 1965 Staco de luxe, 1969 Amberg

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked 76 Times in 43 Posts
My grandfather‘s bike had a 2 speed sachs torpedo with a trigger.
Kovkov is offline  
Old 07-04-19, 04:58 AM
  #7  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 8,108
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 937 Post(s)
Liked 652 Times in 367 Posts
Originally Posted by Bicyclz
The axle is hollow on the drive side, but introducing an SA indicator does nothing. It's solid on the LH side, just a 5mm deep hole in the end.

So I dismantled the drive side to reveal the peg that takes an indicator! I tried several SA indicators but the peg thread is too small for them.



I also noticed a pic of Sachs internals with the copper coloured pawl on the drive side... Most Sachs have the brake though.

So, it seems it may be a Fichtel & Sachs after all. But, a 2 speed with a trigger??
Thoughts now are: Is it a 2 speed, or possibly, three?

Looking at a 1966 SA S2 diagram shows the pawls with the usual tiny springs, but this one has a circlip. Also no large caged ballring on the 66 version.

The axle length looks to be 162mm.

Still at the research stage here I reckon...
Yeah, definitely has a Sachs look about it. I see a shift key on the left side of your picture, so it must have had an indicator rod.
Not familiar with Sachs 2 speed internals, but the ring gear pawls having no means of retraction from the inside is consistent with other Sachs hubs I have explored. The ring gear pawls, or high speed pawls as they are sometimes called, are disabled by moving the ring gear end wise to move the pawls in and out of engagement with the ratchets.That is the only shifting action required to make it a 2 speed.
Dan Burkhart is online now  
Old 07-04-19, 05:00 AM
  #8  
Bicyclz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bicyclz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 219
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 15 Posts
Thank you!
I'm just rooting through F&S hubs history now & they did have connection with SA at one point.
(A little German would be quite helpful here...)

I'll check for the 2 speed with trigger!
New to me, but sounds interesting.
Bicyclz is offline  
Old 07-04-19, 05:18 AM
  #9  
Bicyclz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bicyclz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 219
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart
Yeah, definitely has a Sachs look about it. I see a shift key on the left side of your picture, so it must have had an indicator rod.
Not familiar with Sachs 2 speed internals, but the ring gear pawls having no means of retraction from the inside is consistent with other Sachs hubs I have explored. The ring gear pawls, or high speed pawls as they are sometimes called, are disabled by moving the ring gear end wise to move the pawls in and out of engagement with the ratchets.That is the only shifting action required to make it a 2 speed.
I agree with every word. The only movement is endwise & it's as you say.
How long have the High Speed rings been in use then? I was assuming they were a 'modern' item, but I've only had experience with the SA variety.

Just getting my head around a 2 speed with a trigger!
I never thought of that one...

I do fancy putting it to use though: )
Bicyclz is offline  
Old 07-04-19, 06:39 AM
  #10  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,580

Bikes: Mike Melton custom, 1982 Stumpjumper, Alex Moulton AM, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1646 Post(s)
Liked 1,785 Times in 1,041 Posts
Fichtel&Sachs began manufacturing internal gear hubs in 1904. They built triggered two-speeds ('Zweigang') for 50+ years.

All About Hubs
tcs is offline  
Old 07-04-19, 06:42 AM
  #11  
Bicyclz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bicyclz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 219
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 15 Posts
All I'm getting is Dreigang...
But I check your link next.
Thanks: )
Bicyclz is offline  
Old 07-05-19, 09:46 AM
  #12  
Bicyclz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bicyclz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 219
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 15 Posts
My research tells me that the 2 speed triggered version was ended early 1950s?
These internals of mine are not pre 1952..

I try Sturmey Archer hub nuts on this one. No chance.
SA = 3/8", but this one is obviously metric.

Right now I'm thinking 2 speed with trigger operation. And modern?

Could be something missing from the non drive-side end?
Still a puzzle to figure...
Bicyclz is offline  
Old 07-05-19, 01:02 PM
  #13  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 8,108
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 937 Post(s)
Liked 652 Times in 367 Posts
Originally Posted by Bicyclz
My research tells me that the 2 speed triggered version was ended early 1950s?
These internals of mine are not pre 1952..

I try Sturmey Archer hub nuts on this one. No chance.
SA = 3/8", but this one is obviously metric.

Right now I'm thinking 2 speed with trigger operation. And modern?

Could be something missing from the non drive-side end?
Still a puzzle to figure...
The axle threading on most SA hubs is 13/32 x 26. I believe Sachs used that size as well, but not sure about the thread profile. The only SA hub that I know for sure uses 3/8 X 26 axles is the current production rotary shift 3 speeds. There may have been others back in the day.I think the very early models from the early 20th century such as the X model had 3/8" axles.
Dan Burkhart is online now  
Old 07-05-19, 03:23 PM
  #14  
Bicyclz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bicyclz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 219
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 15 Posts
Well, I learn something every day, including today.
(No problem with that though. That's a good day!)

I 'assumed' the SA nuts were 3/8". (& 5/16" at the front, mostly if they English...)
I got lots of them, but none fitted this.

A thread gauge would be useful here...

Summing it up now.

I know it's:
2 speed.
Needs a trigger. (Not kickback)
Metric threading. Not Sturmey Archer.
Likely Fichtel & Sachs/Sachs. (Or, could it possibly be Shimano?? Hope not.)

Research continues from there tomorrow.
And I might dismantle the whole thing & look at it properly anyway.
Bicyclz is offline  
Old 07-10-19, 07:21 AM
  #15  
Bicyclz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bicyclz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 219
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 15 Posts
After several days 'researching' I'm not a lot further forward.
But I know now it is Fichtel & Sachs at least. 2 speed with a trigger. (Potential song title there?)

Been searching for a 2 speed trigger for it, let alone a hub shell, & it's looking to be a long job.

Only yesterday I was checking my 1991 Sturmey Archer 5star hub...
A rare & disastrous SA item apparently, only made for 2 years.
I don't understand why I happen to get these items, but the research is 'Interesting': )

Interaction on BF not what I would expect, but...
Ringing the 'right bell' helps sometimes: )
Bicyclz is offline  
Old 07-11-19, 06:25 AM
  #16  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,580

Bikes: Mike Melton custom, 1982 Stumpjumper, Alex Moulton AM, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1646 Post(s)
Liked 1,785 Times in 1,041 Posts
Originally Posted by Bicyclz
Been searching for a 2 speed trigger for it...
Bet a T3 indicator rod will fit. The 'trigger' only needs to create 'slack' and 'taut' - a friction shifter will do that.

...let alone a hub shell...
Yep, probably gonna need a hub shell to get any use out of it.
tcs is offline  
Old 07-11-19, 06:26 AM
  #17  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 8,108
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 937 Post(s)
Liked 652 Times in 367 Posts
Originally Posted by tcs


Yep, probably gonna need a hub shell to get any use out of it.
Oh, I dunno. Could be useful as a paper weight.
Dan Burkhart is online now  
Old 07-11-19, 07:02 AM
  #18  
Kovkov
Full Member
 
Kovkov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 390

Bikes: 1957 Alpa Special, 1963 Condor Delta, 1967 Tigra Sprint, 1977 Oltenia, 1987 Mondia, 1965 Staco de luxe, 1969 Amberg

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked 76 Times in 43 Posts
Could it be from a Sachs Orbit? Those were 2 speed triggered produced in the 80ies. The rather long splined section appears to have space for more than one sprocket.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/sachs-orbit.html
Kovkov is offline  
Old 07-11-19, 07:15 AM
  #19  
Bicyclz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bicyclz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 219
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart
Oh, I dunno. Could be useful as a paper weight.
You mean like my 5Star also?
We do like a challenge here though!
Don't give up easily.
Bicyclz is offline  
Old 07-11-19, 07:25 AM
  #20  
Bicyclz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bicyclz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 219
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 15 Posts
[QUOTE=tcs;21021615]Bet a T3 indicator rod will fit. The 'trigger' only needs to create 'slack' and 'taut' - a friction shifter will do that.

Not sure what a T3 is but it's obvious a simple 'in/out' lever will do it. (Like you might do on a 4 speed to 5 speed Lauterwasser conversion. On the left hand side I mean. Been there.)
Just needs the right screw into the peg. Or possibly use an SA peg & then an SA indicator into it?

Possibilities abound, if you know what it actually is: )

Will not be a paperweight...

Last edited by Bicyclz; 07-11-19 at 08:01 AM. Reason: omission
Bicyclz is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
ccgoertz
Bicycle Mechanics
9
02-22-15 07:21 PM
kurremkarm
Singlespeed & Fixed Gear
58
01-04-15 05:57 PM
Daniel Sundance
Classic & Vintage
16
06-14-13 04:57 PM
chico1st
Classic & Vintage
9
04-19-11 06:16 AM
ilynne
Bicycle Mechanics
8
10-19-10 05:01 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.