Mystery Sturmey Archer internals?? Might be S2C?.
#1
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Thread Starter
Mystery Sturmey Archer internals?? Might be S2C?.
Came across these SA (I presume: ) internals recently. NOS in a greasy, polythene bag. (Good sign?)
Clearly been 'on the shelf' a while.
Madly perhaps, it came along with a fair 1985 531C Orbit Gold Medal machine off UK Ebay...
No labels/other info. No stampings to indicate anything.
I'm familiar with SA 3 & 4 speed internals, but this one I never saw before.
So, after some research, I think I've narrowed it down to S2C. But not sure...
Can anyone help nail it?
It is different from the current(?) S2C HSX157, but very similar, so could be an early version?
S2C introduced in 2010 I believe.
Bit of a mystery anyway, right now.
(I'm aware I might be totally wrong here! If it was a Sachs, for example: )
Can't use it if I can't find the right shell: )
I've ridden a small wheeler previously with the S2C set up & loved it, but I never saw the internals...
Clearly been 'on the shelf' a while.
Madly perhaps, it came along with a fair 1985 531C Orbit Gold Medal machine off UK Ebay...
No labels/other info. No stampings to indicate anything.
I'm familiar with SA 3 & 4 speed internals, but this one I never saw before.
So, after some research, I think I've narrowed it down to S2C. But not sure...
Can anyone help nail it?
It is different from the current(?) S2C HSX157, but very similar, so could be an early version?
S2C introduced in 2010 I believe.
Bit of a mystery anyway, right now.
(I'm aware I might be totally wrong here! If it was a Sachs, for example: )
Can't use it if I can't find the right shell: )
I've ridden a small wheeler previously with the S2C set up & loved it, but I never saw the internals...
#2
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Came across these SA (I presume: ) internals recently. NOS in a greasy, polythene bag. (Good sign?)
Clearly been 'on the shelf' a while.
Madly perhaps, it came along with a fair 1985 531C Orbit Gold Medal machine off UK Ebay...
No labels/other info. No stampings to indicate anything.
I'm familiar with SA 3 & 4 speed internals, but this one I never saw before.
So, after some research, I think I've narrowed it down to S2C. But not sure...
Can anyone help nail it?
It is different from the current(?) S2C HSX157, but very similar, so could be an early version?
S2C introduced in 2010 I believe.
Bit of a mystery anyway, right now.
(I'm aware I might be totally wrong here! If it was a Sachs, for example: )
Can't use it if I can't find the right shell: )
I've ridden a small wheeler previously with the S2C set up & loved it, but I never saw the internals...
Clearly been 'on the shelf' a while.
Madly perhaps, it came along with a fair 1985 531C Orbit Gold Medal machine off UK Ebay...
No labels/other info. No stampings to indicate anything.
I'm familiar with SA 3 & 4 speed internals, but this one I never saw before.
So, after some research, I think I've narrowed it down to S2C. But not sure...
Can anyone help nail it?
It is different from the current(?) S2C HSX157, but very similar, so could be an early version?
S2C introduced in 2010 I believe.
Bit of a mystery anyway, right now.
(I'm aware I might be totally wrong here! If it was a Sachs, for example: )
Can't use it if I can't find the right shell: )
I've ridden a small wheeler previously with the S2C set up & loved it, but I never saw the internals...
The coaster brake version of modern SA 2 speed hubs is a substantially different design from the non coaster brake version.
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Well Dan I'm very interested in your ideas here.
I'd just been looking at your Youtube vid of the S2C machine before I posted this: )
Thought it best to ask the Q here though: )
I'm thinking here now that I should dismantle it & look at it properly.
The twin Pawls set-up is the same as S2C though??
After your saying no coaster brake, I'm thinking S2.
I freely admit I'm puzzled as I write: )
It's slightly/quite/really annoyingly bugging me right now & there isn't much online about it that I can find to settle it...
More research required here..
But, I got a nice bottle of a new white wine to sample as I proceed.
So I persevere. I do lead a hard life really: )
I'd just been looking at your Youtube vid of the S2C machine before I posted this: )
Thought it best to ask the Q here though: )
I'm thinking here now that I should dismantle it & look at it properly.
The twin Pawls set-up is the same as S2C though??
After your saying no coaster brake, I'm thinking S2.
I freely admit I'm puzzled as I write: )
It's slightly/quite/really annoyingly bugging me right now & there isn't much online about it that I can find to settle it...
More research required here..
But, I got a nice bottle of a new white wine to sample as I proceed.
So I persevere. I do lead a hard life really: )
Last edited by Bicyclz; 07-03-19 at 10:21 AM. Reason: typo
#4
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Well Dan I'm very interested in your ideas here.
I'd just been looking at your Youtube vid of the S2C machine before I posted this: )
Thought it best to ask the Q here though: )
I'm thinking here now that I should dismantle it & look at it properly.
The twin Pawls set-up is the same as S2C though??
After your saying no coaster brake, I'm thinking S2.
I freely admit I'm puzzled as I write: )
It's slightly/quite/really annoyingly bugging me right now & there isn't much online about it that I can find to settle it...
More research required here..
But, I got a nice bottle of a new white wine to sample as I proceed.
So I persevere. I do lead hard life really: )
I'd just been looking at your Youtube vid of the S2C machine before I posted this: )
Thought it best to ask the Q here though: )
I'm thinking here now that I should dismantle it & look at it properly.
The twin Pawls set-up is the same as S2C though??
After your saying no coaster brake, I'm thinking S2.
I freely admit I'm puzzled as I write: )
It's slightly/quite/really annoyingly bugging me right now & there isn't much online about it that I can find to settle it...
More research required here..
But, I got a nice bottle of a new white wine to sample as I proceed.
So I persevere. I do lead hard life really: )
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
The axle is hollow on the drive side, but introducing an SA indicator does nothing. It's solid on the LH side, just a 5mm deep hole in the end.
So I dismantled the drive side to reveal the peg that takes an indicator! I tried several SA indicators but the peg thread is too small for them.
I also noticed a pic of Sachs internals with the copper coloured pawl on the drive side... Most Sachs have the brake though.
So, it seems it may be a Fichtel & Sachs after all. But, a 2 speed with a trigger??
Thoughts now are: Is it a 2 speed, or possibly, three?
Looking at a 1966 SA S2 diagram shows the pawls with the usual tiny springs, but this one has a circlip. Also no large caged ballring on the 66 version.
The axle length looks to be 162mm.
Still at the research stage here I reckon...
So I dismantled the drive side to reveal the peg that takes an indicator! I tried several SA indicators but the peg thread is too small for them.
I also noticed a pic of Sachs internals with the copper coloured pawl on the drive side... Most Sachs have the brake though.
So, it seems it may be a Fichtel & Sachs after all. But, a 2 speed with a trigger??
Thoughts now are: Is it a 2 speed, or possibly, three?
Looking at a 1966 SA S2 diagram shows the pawls with the usual tiny springs, but this one has a circlip. Also no large caged ballring on the 66 version.
The axle length looks to be 162mm.
Still at the research stage here I reckon...
#6
Full Member
My grandfather‘s bike had a 2 speed sachs torpedo with a trigger.
#7
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The axle is hollow on the drive side, but introducing an SA indicator does nothing. It's solid on the LH side, just a 5mm deep hole in the end.
So I dismantled the drive side to reveal the peg that takes an indicator! I tried several SA indicators but the peg thread is too small for them.
I also noticed a pic of Sachs internals with the copper coloured pawl on the drive side... Most Sachs have the brake though.
So, it seems it may be a Fichtel & Sachs after all. But, a 2 speed with a trigger??
Thoughts now are: Is it a 2 speed, or possibly, three?
Looking at a 1966 SA S2 diagram shows the pawls with the usual tiny springs, but this one has a circlip. Also no large caged ballring on the 66 version.
The axle length looks to be 162mm.
Still at the research stage here I reckon...
So I dismantled the drive side to reveal the peg that takes an indicator! I tried several SA indicators but the peg thread is too small for them.
I also noticed a pic of Sachs internals with the copper coloured pawl on the drive side... Most Sachs have the brake though.
So, it seems it may be a Fichtel & Sachs after all. But, a 2 speed with a trigger??
Thoughts now are: Is it a 2 speed, or possibly, three?
Looking at a 1966 SA S2 diagram shows the pawls with the usual tiny springs, but this one has a circlip. Also no large caged ballring on the 66 version.
The axle length looks to be 162mm.
Still at the research stage here I reckon...
Not familiar with Sachs 2 speed internals, but the ring gear pawls having no means of retraction from the inside is consistent with other Sachs hubs I have explored. The ring gear pawls, or high speed pawls as they are sometimes called, are disabled by moving the ring gear end wise to move the pawls in and out of engagement with the ratchets.That is the only shifting action required to make it a 2 speed.
#8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Thank you!
I'm just rooting through F&S hubs history now & they did have connection with SA at one point.
(A little German would be quite helpful here...)
I'll check for the 2 speed with trigger!
New to me, but sounds interesting.
I'm just rooting through F&S hubs history now & they did have connection with SA at one point.
(A little German would be quite helpful here...)
I'll check for the 2 speed with trigger!
New to me, but sounds interesting.
#9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Yeah, definitely has a Sachs look about it. I see a shift key on the left side of your picture, so it must have had an indicator rod.
Not familiar with Sachs 2 speed internals, but the ring gear pawls having no means of retraction from the inside is consistent with other Sachs hubs I have explored. The ring gear pawls, or high speed pawls as they are sometimes called, are disabled by moving the ring gear end wise to move the pawls in and out of engagement with the ratchets.That is the only shifting action required to make it a 2 speed.
Not familiar with Sachs 2 speed internals, but the ring gear pawls having no means of retraction from the inside is consistent with other Sachs hubs I have explored. The ring gear pawls, or high speed pawls as they are sometimes called, are disabled by moving the ring gear end wise to move the pawls in and out of engagement with the ratchets.That is the only shifting action required to make it a 2 speed.
How long have the High Speed rings been in use then? I was assuming they were a 'modern' item, but I've only had experience with the SA variety.
Just getting my head around a 2 speed with a trigger!
I never thought of that one...
I do fancy putting it to use though: )
#10
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Fichtel&Sachs began manufacturing internal gear hubs in 1904. They built triggered two-speeds ('Zweigang') for 50+ years.
All About Hubs
All About Hubs
#12
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Thread Starter
My research tells me that the 2 speed triggered version was ended early 1950s?
These internals of mine are not pre 1952..
I try Sturmey Archer hub nuts on this one. No chance.
SA = 3/8", but this one is obviously metric.
Right now I'm thinking 2 speed with trigger operation. And modern?
Could be something missing from the non drive-side end?
Still a puzzle to figure...
These internals of mine are not pre 1952..
I try Sturmey Archer hub nuts on this one. No chance.
SA = 3/8", but this one is obviously metric.
Right now I'm thinking 2 speed with trigger operation. And modern?
Could be something missing from the non drive-side end?
Still a puzzle to figure...
#13
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My research tells me that the 2 speed triggered version was ended early 1950s?
These internals of mine are not pre 1952..
I try Sturmey Archer hub nuts on this one. No chance.
SA = 3/8", but this one is obviously metric.
Right now I'm thinking 2 speed with trigger operation. And modern?
Could be something missing from the non drive-side end?
Still a puzzle to figure...
These internals of mine are not pre 1952..
I try Sturmey Archer hub nuts on this one. No chance.
SA = 3/8", but this one is obviously metric.
Right now I'm thinking 2 speed with trigger operation. And modern?
Could be something missing from the non drive-side end?
Still a puzzle to figure...
#14
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Well, I learn something every day, including today.
(No problem with that though. That's a good day!)
I 'assumed' the SA nuts were 3/8". (& 5/16" at the front, mostly if they English...)
I got lots of them, but none fitted this.
A thread gauge would be useful here...
Summing it up now.
I know it's:
2 speed.
Needs a trigger. (Not kickback)
Metric threading. Not Sturmey Archer.
Likely Fichtel & Sachs/Sachs. (Or, could it possibly be Shimano?? Hope not.)
Research continues from there tomorrow.
And I might dismantle the whole thing & look at it properly anyway.
(No problem with that though. That's a good day!)
I 'assumed' the SA nuts were 3/8". (& 5/16" at the front, mostly if they English...)
I got lots of them, but none fitted this.
A thread gauge would be useful here...
Summing it up now.
I know it's:
2 speed.
Needs a trigger. (Not kickback)
Metric threading. Not Sturmey Archer.
Likely Fichtel & Sachs/Sachs. (Or, could it possibly be Shimano?? Hope not.)
Research continues from there tomorrow.
And I might dismantle the whole thing & look at it properly anyway.
#15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
After several days 'researching' I'm not a lot further forward.
But I know now it is Fichtel & Sachs at least. 2 speed with a trigger. (Potential song title there?)
Been searching for a 2 speed trigger for it, let alone a hub shell, & it's looking to be a long job.
Only yesterday I was checking my 1991 Sturmey Archer 5star hub...
A rare & disastrous SA item apparently, only made for 2 years.
I don't understand why I happen to get these items, but the research is 'Interesting': )
Interaction on BF not what I would expect, but...
Ringing the 'right bell' helps sometimes: )
But I know now it is Fichtel & Sachs at least. 2 speed with a trigger. (Potential song title there?)
Been searching for a 2 speed trigger for it, let alone a hub shell, & it's looking to be a long job.
Only yesterday I was checking my 1991 Sturmey Archer 5star hub...
A rare & disastrous SA item apparently, only made for 2 years.
I don't understand why I happen to get these items, but the research is 'Interesting': )
Interaction on BF not what I would expect, but...
Ringing the 'right bell' helps sometimes: )
#16
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#18
Full Member
Could it be from a Sachs Orbit? Those were 2 speed triggered produced in the 80ies. The rather long splined section appears to have space for more than one sprocket.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/sachs-orbit.html
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/sachs-orbit.html
#19
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Thread Starter
#20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
[QUOTE=tcs;21021615]Bet a T3 indicator rod will fit. The 'trigger' only needs to create 'slack' and 'taut' - a friction shifter will do that.
Not sure what a T3 is but it's obvious a simple 'in/out' lever will do it. (Like you might do on a 4 speed to 5 speed Lauterwasser conversion. On the left hand side I mean. Been there.)
Just needs the right screw into the peg. Or possibly use an SA peg & then an SA indicator into it?
Possibilities abound, if you know what it actually is: )
Will not be a paperweight...
Not sure what a T3 is but it's obvious a simple 'in/out' lever will do it. (Like you might do on a 4 speed to 5 speed Lauterwasser conversion. On the left hand side I mean. Been there.)
Just needs the right screw into the peg. Or possibly use an SA peg & then an SA indicator into it?
Possibilities abound, if you know what it actually is: )
Will not be a paperweight...
Last edited by Bicyclz; 07-11-19 at 08:01 AM. Reason: omission