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Cadence - When do you Lug?

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Cadence - When do you Lug?

Old 08-13-19, 10:36 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by Cycle Tourist
Long climbs are much easier if you vary your climbing style. Spinning at 70 rpm with a low gear and standing with a 60 rpm. I usually go up a gear or two just before standing. The actual speed doesn't change but the cadence does. A lower cadence while sitting can really stress your knees and over time can cause injury. Depending on weight get as low a gear as nesssesary to keep moving without dropping below 65-70 and one that allows you to recover. Walking should never be an option. I carry a lot of weight and find a granny 24 and a 32t freewheel sufficient. Unloaded, obviously that will be unnecessarily low. The old adage of having but not needing is better than needing but not having is very fitting for cycling up steep, long hills.

The OP is talking about doing long climbs at about his FTP, so his climbing style would theoretically not vary from seeing-red-and-about-to puke.
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Old 08-14-19, 11:56 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by phillman5
I don't have a climber (and probably sprinter) build. I am about 6' and usually over 200 lbs. I have big thighs, 23.5" circumference. In '75 while training for a cross country ride with my older brother, I noticed on a good climb (12 miles, 2200 feet climb) the first day I used a low gear and was way behind my brother, couple days later on same climb I used a higher gear and dropped him. Of course this is relative to how he was doing both days. I notice that if I have lower gears I'll use them, but I don't think it makes me climb faster, as I'll be roughly at the same cadence, I guess, as some say, my engine mimics a diesel, constant cadence no mater what I throw at it, so for speed I might as well use the higher gears as I have the strength to push them. Note you can get the same power out with high force * low cadence or low force * high cadence.


To each his own.
You need a metric other than speed. PM is the best, HRM works once you learn what it does. Both is even better. Without a metric, it's hard to tell exactly what you're doing. OTOH if you use a device for long enough, you don't need it as much because you get the feel of what works.

If one wants to play this game, the object of the game is to learn how to go as fast as possible over whatever distance is being ridden, not necessarily to always do that of course, but it's good to know the technique. Both strategy and tactics are in use. OTOH, you get pretty much get all this from riding with a group which is faster than you are. After a dozen rides, you start to figure it out. The other riders provide the metric.

I weigh 145 and have itty-bitty thighs, only 21", the size of Arnold's arms. You do the math.
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Old 08-14-19, 12:34 PM
  #78  
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Quickly read through the thread. I gather that the I gathered this information:
OP is doing the Six Gap Century
OP bought a new bike because he didn't think the old one would cut it.
OP is questioning whether he has enough gearing or not.
OP also has a thread on hydration going so he is thinking about it hard.

Let's put up the elevation profile so we can see what he is talking about.

https://www.6gap.com/images/route-in..._elevation.png
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Old 08-14-19, 12:45 PM
  #79  
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Looking at the ride profile, not a lot of recovery between the punches/climbs. OP could be on the mat quickly with the ref counting down to 1 if he is not careful. I am 5'8" around 200lbs, fast twitcher, not a climber, heavy sweater and a cramper. If it is some type of endurance event, the cramps will be there. I do one major climbing event per year because it is there. Here is the profile. I will write up some thoughts.

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29030456

Last edited by seypat; 08-14-19 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 08-14-19, 12:53 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by seypat
Quickly read through the thread. I gather that the I gathered this information:
OP is doing the Six Gap Century
OP bought a new bike because he didn't think the old one would cut it.
OP is questioning whether he has enough gearing or not.
OP also has a thread on hydration going so he is thinking about it hard.

Let's put up the elevation profile so we can see what he is talking about.

https://www.6gap.com/images/route-in..._elevation.png
Since I am the OP I would add/alter the above. There were a bunch of reasons for buying a new bike, starting with the fact that I only owned a single bike and the simple act of trying to move the nose of my saddle 1/16" left me without a bike for 5 days. See https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...st-seized.html .


The hydration thing is different than you might think. I am not worried about hydration at Six Gap (not that it doesn't have to be done, but I am expecting reasonable temps at the end of Sept). But I am going to ride a local century as a training thing shortly, where (despite a relatively early start) 90+ temps are likely. And I have concerns about my ability to absorb (as oppose to just drink) water at an adequate rate, since I sweat 5 pounds of water per hour. That would be here https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...echniques.html

And I have decided that 34/32 will be good enough for me.

dave
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Old 08-14-19, 01:38 PM
  #81  
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Here is the advice I can give you. With that route's profile, if/when the cramps come, you are done for the day. You will be sitting on the side of the road waiting on the SAG wagon. Whatever gearing you think you need, have 2 more in reserve. Stuff can happen ride day. Maybe it is hot. Maybe you don't get enough sleep. Who knows. I don't care if you just got a new bike. There is no reason to even have the 50T on that ride. You will be on the 34 most of the time. Leave the chain on one of the small gears and coast down the descents. Freespin some at a high rpm/no load some on the descents to clear out the legs. That ride that I put up, I have a crankset that I use only on that ride. I used to do it on a 52/40/30 and a 28 or 30 biggest sprocket in the back. About 3 years ago, I made up a triple with a 50/36/28. Best thing I ever did. That crankset and a matching chain goes on the week of the ride and then goes back on the shelf the next week. Scour Ebay and other sites to find a used crank, RD, cassette, whatever you need to get enough gearing just for that ride. Even that might not work. Take a camera in case you have to walk. When you are walking people will ask you if need help. Tell them you are taking pictures and enjoying the scenery. That's what I had to do.
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Old 08-14-19, 01:49 PM
  #82  
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I didn't see your response until I finished mine. I didn't say a new bike was a bad thing. I ride a different bike every year on the ride I posted. What you will find on your ride is you will end up using only about 5 gears. About the bottom 3 and one on the top if you decide to pedal down the descents. The rest of the time will be spent shifting between those. Those transitions from down to up look really quick. Make sure you get onto you climbing gear before the up starts. Good luck.

I'm also on a marathon training team that starts in June for the fall marathon in Richmond Va. We train through the summer. I would link the nutrition/hydration clinic info, but it is only for registered people on the team. If you are looking for electrolyte replenishment on the cheap, the Wendy's sea salt packets included all of the potassium, magnesium, etc. that you need. Grab some of those and take them with your water.

Last edited by seypat; 08-14-19 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 08-14-19, 04:29 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
You need a metric other than speed. PM is the best, HRM works once you learn what it does. Both is even better. Without a metric, it's hard to tell exactly what you're doing. OTOH if you use a device for long enough, you don't need it as much because you get the feel of what works.

If one wants to play this game, the object of the game is to learn how to go as fast as possible over whatever distance is being ridden, not necessarily to always do that of course, but it's good to know the technique. Both strategy and tactics are in use. OTOH, you get pretty much get all this from riding with a group which is faster than you are. After a dozen rides, you start to figure it out. The other riders provide the metric.

I weigh 145 and have itty-bitty thighs, only 21", the size of Arnold's arms. You do the math.
Huh, I am confused. First you say "You need a metric other than speed." But isn't speed the ultimate goal into getting up a hill faster? All PM and HRM do is guide you. Then you say "the object of the game is to learn how to go as fast as possible" but isn't that speed, which you say you need metric other that it? You also say "The other riders provide the metric" and that was in my original post, though admittedly only one other rider, but the same one each time, not a group.

From your build, we are much different, so I feel different guidance applies.
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Old 08-14-19, 04:42 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by phillman5
Huh, I am confused. First you say "You need a metric other than speed." But isn't speed the ultimate goal into getting up a hill faster? All PM and HRM do is guide you.
You said it yourself, your speed was only relative to your brother. He could have not been recovered as well the second time you climbed it. Power would tell you how you did relative to yourself. The second day you both could have been slower overall but you could have been less slow. speed/time up a climb that is repeated is a good proxy for power if you are consistent with timing and start/endlines
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Old 08-14-19, 06:15 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by phillman5
Huh, I am confused. First you say "You need a metric other than speed." But isn't speed the ultimate goal into getting up a hill faster? All PM and HRM do is guide you. Then you say "the object of the game is to learn how to go as fast as possible" but isn't that speed, which you say you need metric other that it? You also say "The other riders provide the metric" and that was in my original post, though admittedly only one other rider, but the same one each time, not a group.

From your build, we are much different, so I feel different guidance applies.
No, speed really has nothing to do with it. Effort is the key. Speed is a function of weather, gradient, position, desire, and most important, effort. Never watch your speed. It's useless, a needless frustration. Watch cadence, HR, power and most importantly, the riders around you.

Build matters in that the bigger rider will usually be faster on the flat - but not always. Fit and flexibility makes a big difference. Taller riders have an advantage on 700c wheels due to the limits of frame design. Climbing, it's about watts/kg. BMI 24 or less, mostly climb OK. Watts can be trained. Weight can be lost. Method is the same however, discussed previously.

Power and HR show you where your limits are and therefore where various proportions of those limits are. Those things determine how fast you get up the hill. You can't go faster than you can go, or perhaps one should say, faster than it's prudent to go. VAM is a nice metric. That and average speed are useful things to look at when the ride is over, see how you did. The fastest way to get around a course solo is to watch cadence and effort. I say that one titrates the pain.
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Old 08-15-19, 01:15 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by redlude97
You said it yourself, your speed was only relative to your brother. He could have not been recovered as well the second time you climbed it. Power would tell you how you did relative to yourself. The second day you both could have been slower overall but you could have been less slow. speed/time up a climb that is repeated is a good proxy for power if you are consistent with timing and start/endlines

1) he didn't make any excuses, like he wasn't recovered

2) IT WAS 1975, power meters (or any bike computer) wasn't available!


This whole thread has been on cadence while climbing. I make a statement not all people are the same, and give an example of a different experience than most were saying and have people doubt me, try to give examples/reasons how I could be wrong. Sheez! I haven't said do it this way its the only way, I've just said my experience, and have said everybody is different, as does LeMond. Note again this was just one example, and this was from 1975. Don't you think I have had even more experience since? I lived since in Tucson with Mount Lemmon climb (31 miles, 6,430 feet) and Albuquerque with many good climbs in the area including Sandia Crest climb (20 miles, 4,200) and Santa Fe Ski Area (16 miles, 3,300 feet). And I have results to back up what I mentioned, 3rd in Sandia Climb TT, and 2nd in Santa Fe climb TT, so I am just not blowing smoke.
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Old 08-15-19, 03:26 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
In principle I will be taking on some long and steep climbs in a couple of months. And the question of gearing is still on my mind.

In my case it seems to me that, assuming that I am putting out power somewhere in the range of my ftp, that a cadence down in the 70 to 75 range is where things start to become inefficient. I think that I could pedal at 80 rpm or 95 rpm (at around my ftp) without making a huge change in physiological effort. But somewhere in the 70 to 75 rpm range and (at the same power output) I will find that the time that I can spend at roughly ftp is going to go down. And things go downhill (as in harder to maintain) pretty quickly in a very small rpm range. E.G., there seems to be a huge difference between 67 and 72 rpm.

What have others found about this in their riding. I am just curious. A new RD (or not) for my bike is driving this question.

Thanks.

dave

ps. It is a difficult experiment to run in my case because I just don't have any climbs that are long enough to test this (everything around here is up and down constantly, so constant power/rpm is not something that I can achieve on our roads).

dave

Ummm ... I just go up the hill slow enough so that I can breathe easily and fast enough that I don't tip over.

If I'm in danger of tipping over, I walk.
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Old 08-15-19, 03:34 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
Since I am the OP I would add/alter the above. There were a bunch of reasons for buying a new bike, starting with the fact that I only owned a single bike and the simple act of trying to move the nose of my saddle 1/16" left me without a bike for 5 days. See https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...st-seized.html .


The hydration thing is different than you might think. I am not worried about hydration at Six Gap (not that it doesn't have to be done, but I am expecting reasonable temps at the end of Sept). But I am going to ride a local century as a training thing shortly, where (despite a relatively early start) 90+ temps are likely. And I have concerns about my ability to absorb (as oppose to just drink) water at an adequate rate, since I sweat 5 pounds of water per hour. That would be here https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...echniques.html

And I have decided that 34/32 will be good enough for me.

dave

Electrolytes.
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Old 08-15-19, 01:14 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
I know many people who've spun out a 56 at Gila. Also, chain line.
Ashton Lambie won the Dirty Kanza 100 this year with a 56-tooth chainring. 'Course, he's a world-class track racer.
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Old 08-17-19, 07:10 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Machka
Ummm ... I just go up the hill slow enough so that I can breathe easily and fast enough that I don't tip over.

If I'm in danger of tipping over, I walk.
What happens when your in danger of tipping over when you walk!
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Old 08-17-19, 07:31 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by xroadcharlie
What happens when your in danger of tipping over when you walk!
More like sliding down. Once the hill gets up to about 25%, I don't want roadie shoes!
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Old 08-17-19, 10:24 AM
  #92  
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If you have a trainer or rollers with resistance and a power meter you might try S

Originally Posted by canklecat
At 5'11" and 150 lbs I may look like a climber, but looks can be deceiving. Losing 10-15 lbs since last year makes climbing easier, but that hasn't translated to faster.

I don't work very hard at improving my climbing, though. We don't have any long enough grades, so all we can do is repeats.

I've tried tricking myself in to thinking some settings on the indoor trainer mimic climbing, but... nah. It doesn't. Only climbing is like climbing.
If you have a trainer or rollers with resistance and a power meter you can try Sufferfest. They have a wide variety of sessions focusing on different strengths. If you don’t have a lot of long climbs in your area you can create your own virtual Long’s Peak if you want. I do 4500’ of climbing every week many single rides in the 3800’- 4000’ , plus rides like the Garrett County Gran Fondo Diabolical Double at 16,500’. Typically my prep is lots of hill work and a couple of 12,000’ 104 mile rides. Over the last couple of years I have substituted Sufferfest training for one of my weekly hill sessions. The results have been great. My hill climbing ability has greatly improved. The painful efforts inside pay off. I think the structure of the Sufferefest rides is well thought out by folks who have lots of experience and it is easier to structure trainer rides than outdoor rides.
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Old 08-17-19, 03:40 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by waters60
If you have a trainer or rollers...
Over the past couple of weeks I've switched from mostly spinning at my usual cadence (90) on the trainer to bigger gears, more resistance and slower cadence. It'll take awhile to see results, and I'm just getting over a respiratory virus, but on the last couple of 50+ mile rides it seems to be helping. I figure I can spin outdoors to conserve energy, so it'd be better to change up my trainer routine.
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Old 08-17-19, 05:58 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by canklecat
Over the past couple of weeks I've switched from mostly spinning at my usual cadence (90) on the trainer to bigger gears, more resistance and slower cadence. It'll take awhile to see results, and I'm just getting over a respiratory virus, but on the last couple of 50+ mile rides it seems to be helping. I figure I can spin outdoors to conserve energy, so it'd be better to change up my trainer routine.
I do out-of-envelope stuff on my rollers. I mean, why not? So if I want big gear work, I like a 50-55 cadence in zone 3. Actually my rollers don't have that much resistance, so I have to spin maybe 70 to get Z3. Have to go outdoors for slower. Idea is no upper body movement, prying on the bars, etc. I try to do it all with my legs. Supposed to be a leg exercise. 10 minute intervals, 5' easy between. Three usually. Yeah it hurts.
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Old 08-17-19, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Machka
Electrolytes.
Yes. Electrolytes move the water out of the stomach much faster. I take 1 Endurolyte/hour, but some take up to 6. Now Hammer makes an extra-strength version for those folks. I take just enough so I'm always a little thirsty.
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Old 08-17-19, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
I do out-of-envelope stuff on my rollers. I mean, why not? So if I want big gear work, I like a 50-55 cadence in zone 3. Actually my rollers don't have that much resistance, so I have to spin maybe 70 to get Z3. Have to go outdoors for slower. Idea is no upper body movement, prying on the bars, etc. I try to do it all with my legs. Supposed to be a leg exercise. 10 minute intervals, 5' easy between. Three usually. Yeah it hurts.
I don’t know if it is the rollers but my seated climbing technique pretty much keeps the arms and shoulders out of the equation.
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