tandempower

It could be easier if all the people driving in the outer land switched to biking and all the cars kept to the inner lane.

Machka 

Not going to happen.

There aren't many people that fit. Getting up and over that hill is an effort. I'm reasonably fit, and even so it takes me a solid hour to get into the city from where we live, and I've worked to do that. A 2+ hour commute is just simply not appealing.

And especially when most of the year the mornings are chilly, even frosty, occasionally snowy ... and there's quite a bit of rain. There isn't much in the way of summer here.

Oh, and you can't commute back that way ... well, the occasional person tries it, but it is definitely NOT recommended. You've got to go the long way back.

tandempower

Yes, I can already see that from the picture. I just like to go ahead and say what people could do that would be better, even when I know it is beyond the horizon of their subjective reality to do so.

Why doesn't everyone live on the same side of the hill? My guess is that they started driving over that hill once motor-vehicles were established as a common form of transportation, and now they are dependent on them because they've laid out the economy in such a way that not everyone can afford to live on the same side of the hill. I think it's about the same problem with sprawl that has occurred everywhere there are cars.

Northern Europe is like that, but people bike. At least you have a bus, unlike many other areas with bike-unfriendly sprawl.

Why? Because it's steeper on the city side of the hill?

Machka 

It's full.

It's difficult terrain to build in.


It is steeper and there's no shoulder at all until well over the top of the hill.

I-Like-To-Bike

"Horizon of their subjective reality" presumably as opposed to the objective reality understood only by a so-called critical thinker.
Too funny.

tandempower

If there was suddenly a compelling reason to stop all but the most essential motorized traffic in the area, would a more autonomous economic community emerge on the far side of the hill with only minimum shipping traffic over the hill and no commuting, or would people just move to other places where there's room?

tandempower

The objective reality is that (most) people could all LCF if they chose to put the effort into it. The subjective reality is that it's impossible because of established cultural/economic patterns.

Happy Feet

The world is full of people trying to tell others how to live.
I just worry about working on myself. It's a full time job.

Machka 

We live on a relatively small island. The far southern part of the island (south of Hobart) is actually pretty remote, sparsely populated, mountainous and fairly heavily forested. If we were suddenly cut off from Hobart, we wouldn't have much of an economy.

For comparison sake ...

https://mapfight.appspot.com/tasmani...ize-comparison

"Tasmania (Australia) (68,401 km²) is 0.4 times as big as Florida (US) (170,304 km²)."




All the brown and green stuff is forest and hills/mountains






Yes! Absolutely. In fact, I've even thought about hiring extra help ...

tandempower

I'm not sure why you're comparing FL and Tasmania, unless you perceive things I am saying as competitive assertions that Florida is somehow greener or otherwise better than Tasmania. If so, that's not how I think. I just think in terms of studying how things are and thinking about how they could be better. Generally, I think people value the wrong things and don't do enough to prioritize what really matters. I think there are extremely efficient ways of transporting needed supplies to people, wherever they need to live, if the priority was on economic efficiency. It's not, though. It's on maintaining economic means to produce lucrative jobs for everyone so they can all have their cars and boats and fuel to power them, and disposable income to buy all the latest clothes and gadgets, and to travel, and go out to expensive restaurants, etc. etc.

So while I am perfectly aware that most people are always going to choose indulgence over sustainability progress, I still like to imagine what would be possible if they would suddenly reverse their priorities, as I have. So that's why I asked you if the people living on the far side of that hill would establish an independent community if commuting to the side of the hill in the picture ended for some reason; or would they move to other areas? I'm really just asking whether the area on the unpictured side of the hill is more of a bedroom community for people who all commute over the hill for work, or whether is has the basis for a more-or-less independent community that could suffice without most people commuting to the city.

Machka 

Simply to give you an idea of the size of area we're talking about.



Just to give you some perspective, I'll also add that the whole of Tasmania has a population of about 515,000.

The Greater Hobart Area has a population of about 222,356.

Of that, the area on the unpictured side of the hill (south of Hobart) contains about 50,000 people. Roughly 30,000 are in one general area and the other 20,000 are in very small towns, farms, etc. here and there.

Some of the main industries are fisheries and aquaculture, orcharding and other agriculture, and tourism. For these to work well, they need access to the "outside world".



However, while I don't mind talking about places I've lived, I don't believe any of this has anything to do with cycling, walking, or busing in the winter.

As far as that goes, there is a decent bus service from my community to the city for my work, but there is really bad bus service to Rowan's place of employment ... in one of the industries I mentioned above ... in the other direction from the city. In fact, it would be very difficult for him to get to his place of employment without a motor vehicle. Yes, he could have probably cycled in the past, but the distance, terrain, traffic, and weather would have meant that he would have arrived at work tired which would not have been good for a physically active job.

tandempower

True, except to the extent that hill seems to be prohibitive when it comes to biking over it and it seems most people drive over it to get to a job.

Well, at least you have bus service.

Mobile 155

Ahh yes, cycling would be so nice if we could just get that evil tectonic plate movement to change its ways and flatten those mountains. If we could reverse the effects of the ice age cutting fertile depressions or valleys people have to struggle to ride up and out of. Just sit back and think of a world where everyone lived on one side of a hill or that there were no hills at all. A world with no raised railroad tracks, no lakes or rivers that must be crossed. No oceans and no Velds, Savannas or deserts. Yes such thought will assist people achieve LCF! Well maybe in an alternative universe. For now and here there are hills and valleys. Maybe not in Florida but most everywhere else. There are things that make life easier for other people that make it harder for cyclists. That is how life works, compromise that everyone has to adapt to.

In the winter if it is nice outside I can ride my bicycle to the coffee shop. If it is raining or very windy I can drive my car. I might have a reason to ride the train or light rail but I have no need for a bus. Close distance my car or Bike is a better option. Longer distance the light rail or train maybe but most times my car is still a better option. Good weather walking or riding my bike is fine. In bad weather some sheltered vehicle is a better option.

Having climbed hills like Machka posted I agree climbing a long hill on a bike takes a lot of time and lots of effort. More than most in this forum are willing to do. In fact more than many can do. Unless we get back to seeing the world inside the mind of someone sitting in a darkened living room just thinking about a perfect world to LCF in.

fietsbob

just dont leave town , its not far from 1 end to the other, anyhow..

I get some rides to stock up at a Restaurant Supply grocer next town over..

I miss the last cat I owned , but not the ongoing costs in today's prices..

Its into the Rainy season, I break out the same rain gear Ive used for the past several years .


Beer in the bars, is closer than the grocery stores , because they have to have acres of parking lots..





...

tandempower

. . . not far by bike or on foot?

tandempower

Idk about you, but I always assume that every aspect of Earth's natural systems has evolved as part of a complex symbiosis. So I always look at any natural feature or phenomena and ask what various natural functions might it perform that makes the Earth inherently sustainable in the absence of radical transformation by short-sighted beings with immense industrial powers to alter landscapes, resources, climate, etc.


So without getting into too much, I assume hills are good, but I look at how different species and human cultures have adapted to being relatively self-sufficient within the local ecological resources available. Potatoes are are mountain-grown food, originally, for example. As much as I love the lore of 'Ol' Rocky Top,' where folks can't grow corn so they get it from a jar, that doesn't seem like a very good sustainable sustenance plan for geographically-isolated living. Maybe we should study mountain Gorilla culture more closely. I wonder how well Jane Goodall was able to suffice on a Gorilla diet while she was living with her research subjects. I've read Gorillas eat about 70 lbs of leaves per day. That's a lot of salad, but I guess it pays off considering how buff they are. It would be interesting to try one as a tandem cycling stoker, especially if some method could be devised for them to pedal with their arm and chest muscles as well as, or in place of, their legs, which don't seem as strong as their upper bodies.


You never seem to acknowledge that all the same infrastructural convenience available for motorists can be built for cyclists and pedestrians, only smaller and thus cheaper and with less environmental/resource impact.


So do you avoid driving for any reason, or do you just like biking when you feel like it?


Don't forget to insult me at the end of your posts. Everything is relative. You may not be willing to put the effort into climbing a hill, but you might if the alternative was a 3-hour one-way L.A. freeway commute. You can't compare a relatively easy car commute with a hard bike commute or vice versa. Time is time. Effort is another story. Effort on a bike is healthy whereas effort in a car is just tedious. Maybe suppressing frustration and road-rage has its psychological benefits, though. People who drive might be better at passive-aggression because they have to master the art of separating their driving aggression from their driving behavior, i.e. so they don't ram each other during traffic jams like battleships.

SHBR

No plan here, I do whatever seems logical, it usually takes me about the same amount of time, compared to public transportation.

In July and August, I seldom use my bicycles as transportation, waaay too hot and humid for that. (30C+ with 80%+ humidity, even at night)

Machka 

The hill in question is the shoulder of a mountain.
Potatoes are a non-native food.
About the only mammal that eats the leaves here is a koala ... and I don't think there are any of those here anymore.
There are no gorillas here ... they would also be non-native.

Machka 

Snow down to 800 metres and frost in most areas.


https://twitter.com/BOM_Tas

https://twitter.com/BOM_Tas/status/1...HizqX4wz4--LBg

tandempower

I don't mind discussing these things, but I'd like to point out a pattern before it starts: First, I said something to you that M155 responded to with ideological debate. Then I responded to him, but now you are responding to my post response with him to extend the discussion. As this side-discussion progresses, people are going to start complaining about it being a tangent, and then mods are going to come in and flush the thread to P&R. Is this what you guys intend with your gang-debate tactics, or do you just really want to discuss these topics and that's why you keep responding?

ok
It was an example of a crop developed by mountain people (Incas in the Andes, I believe), because people used to live by creating sustainable local economies wherever they were, i.e. because roads and long-distance commerce were not as feasible as they are today, since shipping and motor vehicles have been developed.
The gorilla example was just an example of the possibility of living/eating well up in the mountains without access to imported food. Humans learn and evolve by studying and mimicking nature in various ways. Maybe we should mimick gorillas some and cultivate better wild edible-plants that allow us to eat well with less agricultural trade. I know that sounds like it would have a negative effect on Rowan's industry, but my point is that more local self-sufficiency is more conductive to being able to LCF instead of commuting over bike-unfriendly terrain to make money to buy more food and products shipped from farther away.

wolfchild

Who is we ??... why don't you be the first one to move up to the mountains to mimic and experiment with a gorilla diet and let us know how well it worked out for you ??.

tandempower

Ok, here is the latest post-punch in the gang effort to attract moderation and get the thread flushed to P&R.

I asked about Jane Goodall because I really don't know how much she tried living with her research subjects and sufficing on their diet. Idk why you have to react so aggressively to my mention of gorillas as primates that are able to live healthily by foraging local edible plants. What's wrong with wondering about how they do it and whether humans could learn from them and develop some culture along those lines? Why do you have to attack the very thought?

fietsbob

On the western end of US 30 , where it meets US 101, coming across the bridge from WA state ,
Across the Columbia River..

Served by a very comfortable bus from the Portland Amtrak Station..

wolfchild

Of all the radical stuff you posted on these forums this is probably the most amusing one of them all. Now you advocating that we humans should start learning from apes and adopt and mimic their behaviour and diet.

tandempower

Enough of these hostile attacks and accusations. How did humans develop flight except by watching and seeking to mimic birds? How did Europeans learn to grow potatoes except by mimicking the people they encountered who had already mastered that crop? It's ridiculous to get in an argument because someone mentions that gorillas, primates of similar size to humans, are able to live by eating local wild plants in the forest on a mountain. If doing so could prevent people from having to drive over a mountain all the time, it would help with LCF, the same as having a local community garden can help reduce the amount of produce you have to carry from the grocery store.