Track Tire Questions
#251
Senior Member
Sarals,could you share which model of Tufo's you're using? I'm thinking of getting some for my training wheels, but I've been wondering if they'd work on wood, thanks.
#252
Senior Member
I plan to switch to Conti Sprinters next year.
#253
Idiot Emeritus
__________________
"Can you add a signature line please? The lack of words makes me think you are being held hostage and being told to be quiet"
"Can you add a signature line please? The lack of words makes me think you are being held hostage and being told to be quiet"
#254
Lapped 3x
I've ridden many Tufo tires back in the day, as well as the oft referenced Sprinters, along with many other tires. I know that the Sprinters have changed over the years, but Tufo's line-up has been very stable for a long time. It may be that I had better access to the Tufos compared to other riders ( I would call up the factory in the Czech Republic and order tires direct from them. Languages ). I even gt a few of their World Cup only tires thrown in with a couple of my shipments.
In my experience, Tufo's were no worse/better than the mainstream high end tires you could get through your LBS or North American mail-order. I never found them slippery, and I rode them regularly on the only plastic coated tracks in NA. They are fast, and many people also think they seem "harder". This I can attribute to most people pumping them up higher than their regular tires. People see the 220 PSI that you can pump them up to, and figure "why not?". This is fine for a pursuit on a smooth, compliant track. In reality, I used to run them between 130-150 psi.
They had better grip than Conti's silica tread compounds in my opinion. The black carbon compounds were about equal between the two brands. Many people also decry their low thread counts in the casing, but if you go for the Elite model, then the tire specs are abut equal to other high end tires, at little more than half the price. Their World Cup only tires that I tried were the best tires I had ever used. These had a painted on latex tread similar to Dugast or FMB tires. I haven't ridden those tires, so I can't compare them, but the Tufo tires weighed in at 85-90 grams.
In my experience, Tufo's were no worse/better than the mainstream high end tires you could get through your LBS or North American mail-order. I never found them slippery, and I rode them regularly on the only plastic coated tracks in NA. They are fast, and many people also think they seem "harder". This I can attribute to most people pumping them up higher than their regular tires. People see the 220 PSI that you can pump them up to, and figure "why not?". This is fine for a pursuit on a smooth, compliant track. In reality, I used to run them between 130-150 psi.
They had better grip than Conti's silica tread compounds in my opinion. The black carbon compounds were about equal between the two brands. Many people also decry their low thread counts in the casing, but if you go for the Elite model, then the tire specs are abut equal to other high end tires, at little more than half the price. Their World Cup only tires that I tried were the best tires I had ever used. These had a painted on latex tread similar to Dugast or FMB tires. I haven't ridden those tires, so I can't compare them, but the Tufo tires weighed in at 85-90 grams.
#255
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,170
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 43 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
I put a set of new Pista EVO CS's on my race wheels. ... I'm going to Worlds in a couple of months in LA and would like to know if these tires are suitable for the track there? ... They have a fine diamond pattern on the tread and I know the EVO's come in a slick tread with no diamond pattern as well.
#256
Senior Member
I've ridden many Tufo tires back in the day, as well as the oft referenced Sprinters, along with many other tires. I know that the Sprinters have changed over the years, but Tufo's line-up has been very stable for a long time. It may be that I had better access to the Tufos compared to other riders ( I would call up the factory in the Czech Republic and order tires direct from them. Languages ). I even gt a few of their World Cup only tires thrown in with a couple of my shipments.
In my experience, Tufo's were no worse/better than the mainstream high end tires you could get through your LBS or North American mail-order. I never found them slippery, and I rode them regularly on the only plastic coated tracks in NA. They are fast, and many people also think they seem "harder". This I can attribute to most people pumping them up higher than their regular tires. People see the 220 PSI that you can pump them up to, and figure "why not?". This is fine for a pursuit on a smooth, compliant track. In reality, I used to run them between 130-150 psi.
They had better grip than Conti's silica tread compounds in my opinion. The black carbon compounds were about equal between the two brands. Many people also decry their low thread counts in the casing, but if you go for the Elite model, then the tire specs are abut equal to other high end tires, at little more than half the price. Their World Cup only tires that I tried were the best tires I had ever used. These had a painted on latex tread similar to Dugast or FMB tires. I haven't ridden those tires, so I can't compare them, but the Tufo tires weighed in at 85-90 grams.
In my experience, Tufo's were no worse/better than the mainstream high end tires you could get through your LBS or North American mail-order. I never found them slippery, and I rode them regularly on the only plastic coated tracks in NA. They are fast, and many people also think they seem "harder". This I can attribute to most people pumping them up higher than their regular tires. People see the 220 PSI that you can pump them up to, and figure "why not?". This is fine for a pursuit on a smooth, compliant track. In reality, I used to run them between 130-150 psi.
They had better grip than Conti's silica tread compounds in my opinion. The black carbon compounds were about equal between the two brands. Many people also decry their low thread counts in the casing, but if you go for the Elite model, then the tire specs are abut equal to other high end tires, at little more than half the price. Their World Cup only tires that I tried were the best tires I had ever used. These had a painted on latex tread similar to Dugast or FMB tires. I haven't ridden those tires, so I can't compare them, but the Tufo tires weighed in at 85-90 grams.
#257
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
Yeah, I'm curious about the S33s as well.
I have a Tufo S3 Lite 21mm (tubular-clincher) on one of my front wheels. Out of the package, it's very sticky...which may be good or bad. Good that it's sticky to the touch. Bad in that it may simply grab a layer of dust and hold on to it.
I've only used it outdoors on concrete. I'm curious to know if it would be appropriate for use at ADT/LA/Home Depot/whatever it's called.
I have a Tufo S3 Lite 21mm (tubular-clincher) on one of my front wheels. Out of the package, it's very sticky...which may be good or bad. Good that it's sticky to the touch. Bad in that it may simply grab a layer of dust and hold on to it.
I've only used it outdoors on concrete. I'm curious to know if it would be appropriate for use at ADT/LA/Home Depot/whatever it's called.
#258
Lapped 3x
Taras, did you also ride the S33's that Sarals is on? Those are the ones I'm interested as they come in 24mm and are dirt cheap. These would be for my training wheels which have Araya Golds, and those rims don't work well with narrow tires, which would pretty much rule out all the other Tufos. Thanks
Yup! They were how I first got into trying out Tufo. I also used them as my training wheel tires. Never had any problems with them. Would still buy them today if I needed tubs.
#259
Senior Member
Great, thanks Taras! My next tire purchase then. I love cheap stuff!
#260
Lapped 3x
Yeah, I'm curious about the S33s as well.
I have a Tufo S3 Lite 21mm (tubular-clincher) on one of my front wheels. Out of the package, it's very sticky...which may be good or bad. Good that it's sticky to the touch. Bad in that it may simply grab a layer of dust and hold on to it.
I've only used it outdoors on concrete. I'm curious to know if it would be appropriate for use at ADT/LA/Home Depot/whatever it's called.
I have a Tufo S3 Lite 21mm (tubular-clincher) on one of my front wheels. Out of the package, it's very sticky...which may be good or bad. Good that it's sticky to the touch. Bad in that it may simply grab a layer of dust and hold on to it.
I've only used it outdoors on concrete. I'm curious to know if it would be appropriate for use at ADT/LA/Home Depot/whatever it's called.
All in all, they are probably the best value in tires on the market, and I would't hesitate to purchase them again. I would recommend them to anyone looking to try something new, as they definitely won't hold you back.
#262
Idiot Emeritus
Just to add to my (albeit limited) experience with my S33's - I run them no higher than sidewall pressure, which is 115. On Hellyer I ride them at 110, at VSC 115. The Sprinters I run at 140 -160 at VSC, 130 at Hellyer. The S33's show little if any wear since I started riding them at Hellyer in November, and I've done 45 training sessions, plus warmups in four mass start omniums on them. Zero complaints from me!
__________________
"Can you add a signature line please? The lack of words makes me think you are being held hostage and being told to be quiet"
"Can you add a signature line please? The lack of words makes me think you are being held hostage and being told to be quiet"
#263
Senior Member
So I just mounted up a set of these Tufo S33 Pro 24's. Some observations:
They are really wide, I measure them at just a hair over 25mm. I might opt for the 21mm's next time. They were also really tight to mount, on par with Conti Steher's which are the tightest tires I've encountered, but they loosened up enough after stretching that gluing them on was not a worry. They indeed are very round and look to be much nicer tires than similarly priced offerings from Conti And Vittoria (Giro and Ralleye).
They are REALLY slow on rollers. I mean really, really slow. Maybe on par or worse than garden-variety clinchers. They are slow to the point that I have to change my workouts as I just can't finish the efforts I was doing before, and my old training tires were Sprinter Gatorskins, which are not exactly reputed to be fast. I basically cannot do recovery rides on the rollers with them, they have too much rolling resistance. I'll be riding them on the track Sunday, so I'll report back on that, but I'm a bit scared. I mean, these are training tires, but I was hoping for a bit more performance.
I'm wondering if part of the problem is the max pressure. These are rated at max 8 bar/115 psi, which seems really really low to me. Anybody have knowledge of what kind of pressures they can really take? They certainly seem robust enough to take more, maybe 150?
They are really wide, I measure them at just a hair over 25mm. I might opt for the 21mm's next time. They were also really tight to mount, on par with Conti Steher's which are the tightest tires I've encountered, but they loosened up enough after stretching that gluing them on was not a worry. They indeed are very round and look to be much nicer tires than similarly priced offerings from Conti And Vittoria (Giro and Ralleye).
They are REALLY slow on rollers. I mean really, really slow. Maybe on par or worse than garden-variety clinchers. They are slow to the point that I have to change my workouts as I just can't finish the efforts I was doing before, and my old training tires were Sprinter Gatorskins, which are not exactly reputed to be fast. I basically cannot do recovery rides on the rollers with them, they have too much rolling resistance. I'll be riding them on the track Sunday, so I'll report back on that, but I'm a bit scared. I mean, these are training tires, but I was hoping for a bit more performance.
I'm wondering if part of the problem is the max pressure. These are rated at max 8 bar/115 psi, which seems really really low to me. Anybody have knowledge of what kind of pressures they can really take? They certainly seem robust enough to take more, maybe 150?
#264
Lapped 3x
Give them a bit and see if they speed up. I never had a problem like this with any of my Tufos. I also didn't run them that low a pressure as all of mine were rated for 210psi.
#265
Lapped 3x
I would try a higher pressure as well. I was just looking at their website and the 21mm version is rated 115-175 psi. Don't know why the 24 is only 90-115. In the past they were higher. Maybe they "recommend" that max because they think it will ride too hard above that.
#266
Senior Member
Excellent, thanks Taras. I'll try them at 150 and report back. What did you run them at, and did you use the 24's or the 21's?
#267
Lapped 3x
I had S33 24 on my road bike. I think they were the first Tufo tires that I had ever picked up, and I think I ran them about 125 psi. I've used the S3 tires on the track, as well as the Elite S3 23, the Elite Jet, but the Elite 135 is what I usually rode. I typically rode those with 130-150 psi.
#268
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 606
Bikes: Trek Madone, Blue Triad SL, Dixie Flyer BTB
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
They are REALLY slow on rollers. I mean really, really slow. Maybe on par or worse than garden-variety clinchers. They are slow to the point that I have to change my workouts as I just can't finish the efforts I was doing before, and my old training tires were Sprinter Gatorskins, which are not exactly reputed to be fast. I basically cannot do recovery rides on the rollers with them, they have too much rolling resistance. I'll be riding them on the track Sunday, so I'll report back on that, but I'm a bit scared. I mean, these are training tires, but I was hoping for a bit more performance.
Why do people hate TUFO tubulars? - Weight Weenies
The definitive rolling resistance thread.....
I'll be riding them on the track Sunday, so I'll report back on that, but I'm a bit scared. I mean, these are training tires, but I was hoping for a bit more performance.
I'm wondering if part of the problem is the max pressure. These are rated at max 8 bar/115 psi, which seems really really low to me. Anybody have knowledge of what kind of pressures they can really take? They certainly seem robust enough to take more, maybe 150?
Last edited by jsk; 09-01-17 at 09:31 PM.
#269
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
I'll be surprised if you get better results on the track with them, since rollers are pretty much the best case scenario. Even the best indoor tracks aren't going to be as smooth as a roller, and as the surface becomes less smooth, the penalty for a given increase in Crr is magnified.
+/-20PSI on rollers can make a night and day difference in how the rollers feel.
Raising the pressure will help to a certain extent, although probably nowhere near enough to make up for having twice the Crr as other tires. And if you go too high (exactly how high depends on the road/track surface), things will actually get worse. BTW that entire 5-part series by Silca is a worthwhile read if you want to learn about all the factors that go into rolling resistance. Some of their conclusions are surprising in that they directly contradict conventional wisdom, but they did a pretty good job of showing the science behind the conclusions as well as test results that validate them.
If lower tire pressures were the big boost that these blog posts would have you believe, you know trackies would be all over it. I mean, this has to be the cheapest equipment A/B test that's possible. It's not like people are taking 0.5" off of their flying 200s when they drop 30PSI.
Maybe just ride a 1KM pursuit at race pace at 140psi and maintain the same speed and let the SRM log the power needed to do so, then come off and rest and lower to 110PSI and repeat. Do that several times over a few days, maybe even have your buddy set the pressure and don't tell you, and you will have a proper experiment. The data will show if this applies to track or not.
I'd accept that in a track context over the hundreds of blog posts that tell people that they should be riding wider tires at lower pressures...on all bikes on all terrain.
Last edited by carleton; 09-02-17 at 12:10 AM.
#271
Senior Member
Yeah, I find rollers are kind of a magnifying glass for how tires feel. These Tufo's feel really slow, but when I put on my race wheels with Vittoria Pista EVO's they are so fast I can barely ride them. But this is not how different they really are on a track (though they will be significantly different). By the way, my rollers are 3" Minoura's, so quite a bit more resistance than the big Krietlers, for example.
And I'm with Carleton on the pressure thing. Maybe in a road situation low pressure is better, but I'll keep pumping my race tires so 200 psi, thank you very much.
And I'm with Carleton on the pressure thing. Maybe in a road situation low pressure is better, but I'll keep pumping my race tires so 200 psi, thank you very much.
#272
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 606
Bikes: Trek Madone, Blue Triad SL, Dixie Flyer BTB
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Rollers deform the tires much more than the road does, so tire pressure (or lack thereof) is accentuated. That deformation is where the friction comes from. Further, the tires are deformed in 3 places on rollers, not just 2 like when on the road/track.
+/-20PSI on rollers can make a night and day difference in how the rollers feel.
+/-20PSI on rollers can make a night and day difference in how the rollers feel.
Yeah, but all of these studies are of road riding conditions where they ride on the middle of the tire and put no G forces into it in the turns. Further, there aren't nearly as many deformities on a track (even "bad" tracks) that are on the road. So, it's not really comparing apples to oranges.
If lower tire pressures were the big boost that these blog posts would have you believe, you know trackies would be all over it. I mean, this has to be the cheapest equipment A/B test that's possible. It's not like people are taking 0.5" off of their flying 200s when they drop 30PSI.
Getting hung up on track vs road tire pressures completely misses my point though. My main point was that whatever pressure you decide to run, the Tufo's will be a poor choice with regard to rolling resistance. No amount of tire pressure is going to make up for the fact that the casing and tread compound on those tires are ****. There are better choices both for training and racing tires.
Maybe just ride a 1KM pursuit at race pace at 140psi and maintain the same speed and let the SRM log the power needed to do so, then come off and rest and lower to 110PSI and repeat. Do that several times over a few days, maybe even have your buddy set the pressure and don't tell you, and you will have a proper experiment. The data will show if this applies to track or not.
I'd accept that in a track context over the hundreds of blog posts that tell people that they should be riding wider tires at lower pressures...on all bikes on all terrain.
I'd accept that in a track context over the hundreds of blog posts that tell people that they should be riding wider tires at lower pressures...on all bikes on all terrain.
#273
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 606
Bikes: Trek Madone, Blue Triad SL, Dixie Flyer BTB
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Why is the spacing of the Y axis not uniform??
#274
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 606
Bikes: Trek Madone, Blue Triad SL, Dixie Flyer BTB
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Feel free to run whatever pressure you want. I would never run anywhere near that psi on my outdoor track, but I have no idea what the optimal pressure is on a smooth indoor track. Whatever pressure you run, the Tufos are going to be slower than other options, though.
#275
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
Crr will never approach 0, it would just add extra white space below the line. The curve is already getting pretty flat on the right side, showing diminishing returns as pressure goes higher.
That's common when charting non-linear data, it makes small differences more distinguishable at the flat end of the curve.
That's common when charting non-linear data, it makes small differences more distinguishable at the flat end of the curve.
The scale should be uniform linear or logarithmic. Not arbitrary.
Whoever made that chart did that for dramatic effect, nothing more.