Originally Posted by fstrnu

People who train indoors. So, not you. Why are you here? You don't even know what a PMC is. Go away already and ride your foldable bike. This is the last response you will get from me.

Originally Posted by Heathpack

@fstrnu, FYI I do a lot of my workouts (probably 50%) on a trainer with good real world racing results. I find most of what you're posting to be incomprehensible and nothing like what I'm doing that actually gets me results. I am not an anti-trainer troll.

I'm not sure what your intent is with your posts but you come off as condescending. You haven't posted palmares that are relevant to my goals, nor have you discussed results of athletes who you've worked with, so you wouldn't be a source I'd rely on for training advice. Organizationally, your posts are confusing- multiple posts on the same issue, then rewriting posts that have already been commented on. You seem to spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff but then when you post, its as if you have not taken the time to organize your thoughts.

Its also strange that you would use the internet forum format (which is really designed for back and forth conversation, for an exchange of ideas with other people) for what is essentially a series of blog posts. You might consider just setting up your own website and posting your ideas there. Food for thought- because if your intention is to persuade or influence other cyclists, they way you're going about it here is a bit of a miss. You might want to rethink your approach.

Originally Posted by hubcyclist

Oh, you really burned them here. Yeah, they have 3x12 sweet spot, and they progress users to 30min sweet spot intervals. I may have increased my FTP 20w by doing the SSB HV plans this winter. It's a product I like and use and I can pick and choose workouts that suit my needs, whether or not I'm following a plan or doing my own plans during race season. And I take advantage of erg mode and focus on the workout rather than futzing with a head unit and watching the clock to change intervals.

No one has said it, but I will: you need to chill with the topics. This forum isn't your personal rambling ground, go start a blog. No one here or on slowtwitch has taken any interest to your topics, so why do you persist? You claim to demystify training plans, you've clearly overcomplicated things and have attached yourself to things that no mainstream people do. Eventually, if everyone is saying you're offbase while you convince yourself you're onto something, you need to take a step back and re-examine things and maybe realize you're off the target with this.

Originally Posted by fstrnu

Summary:
Post to this thread with your goals, target events, etc. to get book end dates for each training phase (code word is to ask what training plans you should follow and in what order ; act like to you care and have thought about it, i.e. just say when your event is and save you've been thinking about doing sweet spot base mid volume following by general build or whatever it doesn't matter)

Originally Posted by fstrnu

Edit - This post has been re-written as of 2018-12-07.

Cycling SW vendors have had a good run but it's about to end.

While previous generations of cyclists benefited from having to understand basic training concepts, today's "there's an app for that" culture is all too willing to let devices and SW think for them.

Cyclists are beginning to catch on, however, and this will have dire consequences for vendors.

The demise won't be immediate, though, as a standing army of disciples is still in place to defend the massive sunk costs they have invested in knowledge about how to workaround these flaw systems and models. This army is constantly at-the-ready with keyboards that never get cold. You will hear from them within seconds of me saving this post. A simple discussion forum search is all it takes to see both the tens of thousands of questions from confused users of this SW as well as the instant "Trainer Road" or "Zwift" responses to anyone having a question about training anywhere.

The training industrial complex is strong but is about to fall.

Zwift training plans are a joke with no discernible method to the madness of their finger-painted workout profiles which, at best, appear to simulating rides or race situations as opposed to being based on interval workouts. Riders unable to complete workouts are consoled with reassurances that it is OK because they are not expected to be able to complete all of the workouts. In all fairness this is all that can be said about failed complex workouts because, unlike interval workouts which target a single energy system, there is nothing you can tell from the failure. By contrast, if you are unable to complete a 2x20 or a 4x4 workout, then your FTP or VO2 max may be overstated.

Of course FTP is a terrible system and I know saying this won't make me many friends in the training industrial complex. What sense does it make to perform a test and then complain about not being able to perform a workout which is based on that test? Why not just skip a step and let your interval performance be your guide? If the power that you can routinely generate during long intervals done in training is the best estimate of FTP second only to a TT then why not just use that to set workout intensity. Similarly, FTP is also a terrible indicator of VO2 max so why not just perform VO2 intervals at maximum sustainable intensity?

The answer to all these questions is because they don't support sales of SW and services.

Regarding TrainerRoad, by their own admission plans are nothing more than a guideline and if that guideline is simply to increase combined interval duration to a practical limit (based on available training time) and then increase intensity then why follow a plan at all if you will need to adjust the training anyway if you perform any type of load monitoring? The answer is you shouldn't because you are guaranteed to be continually over and under training unless you are using RPE and other methods to ensure proper workout quality.

To help address this critical flaw TR inserts arbitrary variability (also presumably for entertainment purposes because of their other threat, Zwift) which is a barrier to measurement and comparison but that is good for business because clarity would lead back to understanding which leads to adjustments which invalidates the plan.

Of course the biggest issue facing TR is that there is no reason to pay for a plan once you have it. Just perform the workouts with free software. This is where arbitrary variability comes is as well as a desperate move because then people say "it's too hard to re-create the workouts in free SW" but simple repeats don't even have to be created ; you just use manually-controlled fixed power while simultaneously maintaining workout quality by adding intervals as needed, etc.

So TrainerRoad's only play is to rely on ignorant and lazy cyclists. Good luck with that because cyclists are waking up.

Originally Posted by Road Fan

My conclusion is, do not follow this guy, fstrnu. He's prescriptive without justifying his direction adequately. And if he appears to be trying to obfuscate, I just wish he wasn't here. This training topic is complicated enough without this potential misdirection. And if he is actually trying to clarify, it is just not working, for me. When I have three different ideas of what he might mean, that's not clear.

He appears to be field-testing copy for a blog or a Youtube series, but ... that's not why users of BF come here, as I have for over 10 years.

Originally Posted by Machka

@fstrnu ... I've been trying to think of an analogy to get through to you about the importance of setting a goal first.

Maybe this is one.

To me, what you're doing is typing out bus schedules.

Bus A departs at 7:12 am and makes stops at B, C, D, and E
Bus B departs at 8:15 am and makes stops at ...

It's great that my local transit provides bus schedules.

But before I can use the bus, I need to have a goal in mind. A purpose. A destination. And I need that because there are a whole lot of buses that go to places I'm not interested in.

Maybe my goal is to see a certain part of the city and I just want to ride around at random.

Maybe my goal is to get to work or university or back home again.

Once I have a goal in mind, I can select the right bus or buses in order to accomplish that goal.


First the goal ... then the plan.


Or maybe I need to ask this: Where does your bus go? If I follow your plan ... where would I end up?

Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest

It's ok to just want to train for no particular event, for the sake of training itself. Or to have the goal of making your sensors say a particular number. That isn't how I chose to ride, and I'm sure you're glad no one is forcing you to. But different strokes.

Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest

It's ok to just want to train for no particular event, for the sake of training itself. Or to have the goal of making your sensors say a particular number. That isn't how I chose to ride, and I'm sure you're glad no one is forcing you to. But different strokes.

Originally Posted by Happy Feet

There is something to this. A goal could also be very general such as:

"It's Jan 1st and I have made a resolution to join my cycling friends for weekend rides and not feel I am slowing them down. They usually go for about 2 -3 hours and ride at about 25kph. I can afford to train about 2x week, maybe a bit longer on the weekend for about 1/2 to 1 hour each time. My current fitness level is so so. What indoor training plan will get me there by spring."

No particular event, just a general level of ongoing fitness required. That's breaking a plan down to its basic requirements so that a plan going forward can be constructed.

3x12 or 36 at 91% sweet spot monitoring for cardiac drift doesn't help much.

Originally Posted by Machka

That's it for me too. If I've gradually built up to about 125 km, I know I can handle a century.

Right now, we're doing about the 25 km distance on weekends, and we have done a 40 km ride.

If all goes well, it would be great to be able to do a 50 km on the Labour Day long weekend (March 9/10/11). I have one in mind.

I'd like to do a couple 50 kms, then gradually build up with about 60 km, 70 km, etc., and then, if all goes well, I'd like to do a 100 km over Easter.

And we'll see how things go from there.


If there's one thing I've learned over the past year it's this: Life is Extremely Uncertain.


Anyway, as you say, those are the sort of key workouts I would like to do as I work toward feeling prepared for longer rides, and it really doesn't matter on which day of the week we do those rides.

I also don't have to do intervals unless I want to!

Originally Posted by rubiksoval

No, there are no training plans in this thread.

Originally Posted by Road Fan

I'm no training expert, so I can't comment on most of what the OP is doing save to question some of his details. Like to say the 3x12 with three different levels is "random." The word means it is by chance without an reasonable cause or justification. Can he really say there was not point to having the three levels? Does he know? I can see it is fiddly, and perhaps unnecessarily so. For me, I've just finished a stress-test (doctor-directed), no results yet, but then I'll do the 30/20 minute time trial to approximate LTHR. So I am a rank beginner in formalized training.

But the 3x12 with three different levels versus the 3x12 with one level? I don't know if I need either at this point, but the latter is attractive in its simplicity. I think he uses the word "random" simply as a pejorative, that he sees the need to simplify plans. But that does throw away information that could be critical. He also may be trying to deflect rigorous reading by saying it's only an example, but this only makes me think "the example will be misleading, therefore tell me when it ends" so I can only analyze the good stuff, or what he intends to be the good stuff.

My conclusion is, do not follow this guy, fstrnu. He's prescriptive without justifying his direction adequately. And if he appears to be trying to obfuscate, I just wish he wasn't here. This training topic is complicated enough without this potential misdirection. And if he is actually trying to clarify, it is just not working, for me. When I have three different ideas of what he might mean, that's not clear.

He appears to be field-testing copy for a blog or a Youtube series, but ... that's not why users of BF come here, as I have for over 10 years.

Originally Posted by Happy Feet

I have tried several times to read and reread through the OP to see if I could make sense of it and still find it both somewhat misleading and complicated.
The title is: "everything I need to know about training..." with a view to how deconstructing a training plan can help clarify but in the first half it only really deals with one aspect of one variable. Not really deconstructing anything.
The second half just gets completely complicated again.

If someone wanted to deconstruct a basic indoor trainer cardio plan I might explain the process something like this:

• You have two training variables - Time, Effort.
• Time can be extended outward until it becomes impractical due to life demands.
• Effort can be measured in a couple of practical ways. RPM, Heart rate (HR). The equipment you need for that are an RPM gauge and/or a HR monitor.
• Effort (or Intensity) can be manipulated in a couple of practical ways as well. increased RPM and/or machine resistance.
• To get more results from a fixed time duration you can vary intensity. This is called interval training.
• By running intervals of high intensity coupled with periods of lower intensity you put a higher overall demand on your system and grow into that level of increased fitness.

That's the nuts and bolts of indoor cardio training deconstructed, remembering it is aimed at "new cyclists, who are intimated by setting up their own plan".

From there it's a question of:

• What the riders goal is?
• How long do they have to train before the event?
• What their current fitness level is?
• How much time they can devote to training per session, per week?
• How can manipulating the variables of time and effort get them there?

You can't talk about time/effort numbers until you know the other things but you can talk all day about those other things in general terms without the numbers.

Originally Posted by fstrnu

You are correct. I am absolutely accusing that 3 x 12 workout with different levels as being without justification. There IS however, a business justification in over-complicating things because I suspect many wouldn't continue to pay a subscription for something they could both understand and achieve themselves with free software. Over-complicating things also gives the illusion of sophistication and secret sauce, etc.

Originally Posted by fstrnu

Before you recommend other people to not make up their own minds I would challenge you to at least ask one question before doing so.

Originally Posted by Happy Feet

There is something to this. A goal could also be very general such as:

"It's Jan 1st and I have made a resolution to join my cycling friends for weekend rides and not feel I am slowing them down. They usually go for about 2 -3 hours and ride at about 25kph. I can afford to train about 2x week, maybe a bit longer on the weekend for about 1/2 to 1 hour each time. My current fitness level is so so. What indoor training plan will get me there by spring."

No particular event, just a general level of ongoing fitness required. That's breaking a plan down to its basic requirements so that a plan going forward can be constructed.

3x12 or 36 at 91% sweet spot monitoring for cardiac drift doesn't help much.

Originally Posted by hubcyclist

This is dumb, there's no business justification to overcomplicating things. You continuously expose your own ignorance. Do you realize Trainerroad has a weekly podcast and they host their own forum where they interact with people and answer questions, and even deep dive into issues on their podcast? I can't think of any other company where a CEO and his team put themselves out there and engage with their customers to educate and receive feedback. If you knew anything about training plan design you'd see that all of their plans manage TSS, ramp rate, and taper individuals during recovery weeks. I perfectly understand what it takes to build a plan, I just have other things to do with my life, and so do many other people. I also have better things to do than look at a stopwatch and fiddle with erg mode when I have a perfectly well design software to do it for me while I watch shows, listen to music, get lost in thought.

There is no overcomplication to TR workouts, they have simple intervals at fixed percentages, they have other intervals that are rolling sweet spot. Doing fixed percentages is monotonous and frankly there's nothing magical about 91% in sweet spot. And you're criticizing one workout in a vacuum, where it is literally one workout at the very beginning of a sweet spot program, which for any new person is quite demanding.

Anyhow, I've followed trainerroad's sweet spot base program for a couple of years, and this year got my ftp from 275 to 295 in 12 weeks. I'll keep paying for a product I like and works for plans or for me to go off-script and pick workouts that suit what I want to work on, and you do you with your plans and your higher plane of consciousness

Originally Posted by Road Fan

This is almost exactly where I am now. On C&V I read of an attractive ride (thread "Do This!") in September: 60 mile loop in central Wisconsin, total 4000 feet climbing (~100 km, 1220 m climbing), good company, food, motels. To get there I need to build up to 60 mile + distance and practice climbing a lot better than I've been. I think the base phase will get me to 60+, then I can focus on performance (climbing) to hope to handle the hills. There are numerous 40 to 70 mile organized rides in southern Michigan, northern Ohio, and southern Ontario to set targets within the base training framework, to build up smoothly and to be able to recognize and address problems that may arise. The Midwest is known for flatness, but the Earth also provided some masses of big rocks in the form of miles of rollers and short, sharp shocks in climbing. We also have wind. And if intervals are part of the plan, so be it.

My previous longer rides were repeated 60 milers with climbing like my home area. Big differences here are my starting fitness and the higher climbing. But I should be working at most part-time, so I will be able to spend more time on it. But I might not be able to support much regimentation - I see my post-full-time life looking like that of CarbonFiberBoy, with a lot of "Kenny, can you help me with ... today? Please?"

Right now I've just completed a stress test, due to my doc's concern: "Let's just make sure you're not gonna kill yourself!" There is cardiac risk in my family. All I know is the treadmill stressed my hamstrings and glutes, I felt no thoracic discomfort, and they took me up to HR 153. At that point speech was pretty hard, so it's a first estimate of my LT. But it will take about a week for the cardiologist to analyze the stress test data and give the assessment. Meanwhile I can calculate HR training zones and continue gentle indoor pedaling. That plus mall-walking is helping me already.

Originally Posted by rubiksoval

Sure you can. It's honestly not that hard to do. At least with power. I always forget you don't have power, so the discussions inevitably end up at a dead end.

But understanding power output is the basis of my assertion regarding a hr PMC. Lower and lower power outputs illicit the exact same or even higher HR when dew points are 68+. And if you've always done "heat" training in Eastern Washington, it's very unlikely you understand what training in heat AND humidity is like, and the impact it has on HR. It is very significant.

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy

Oh, totally. I know that. Whether you mean to or not, this reinforces my conjecture that the PMC works better with HR, even if one trains with power: just input the HR, not the power. At the bottom of a big climb, with 100 miles in my legs, I know what my HR should be to complete the climb without blowing up. No matter the weather, it'll be the same other than slow changes from year to year. If I go over that HR in the heat, my head will explode. I'll just be slower when it's hot and just as tired at the finish either way.

Originally Posted by redlude97

Not sure how that correlates to a HR based PMC though. How does a high HR CTL correlate with what HR I can hold and for how long during a long ride?

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy

"Hold" in the first question is not meaningful as it depends on how long. If the question were "how high for a couple minutes" that would depend on where one is in the microcycle more than CTL. The second correlates very well with CTL. I start with ~45 CTL in October and gradually pump it up to 80 in July if all goes well. This correlates perfectly with my ability to complete difficult rides with decent results. Of course these results are not simply the mechanical application of a training plan. I know to reduce load if HR under load drops and to pay attention to how I feel and alter my plan to suit, thus trying to prevent large drops in CTL from overdoing it.

The object of my game is to have a slow rise in CTL for 2 or 3 weeks, then a flat week, this pattern continuing during the training year. Thus if I"m pushing CTL up by 35 points in 40 weeks, that's less than 1 a week. Practically, I push it up faster when it's low, than back it off when it's high enough that I can do more difficult workouts without getting overcooked. Right before big events, I push it up rapidly for maybe 3 weeks, then taper. Of course there will be inevitable drops in CTL do to having priorities other than bike training.

Originally Posted by fstrnu

And you guys think my approach is confusing