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Driverless cars today... where will they be in 5 years...

Old 11-05-19, 10:49 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
You sound skeptical...

I think we should have a quantitative predict-o-poll, like as of Jan 1 2025, how many Level 5 driverless vehicles will be operating in the United States?
(a) 0
(b) 1-100
(c) 101-1000
(d) 1001-10000
(e) 10001-100000
(f) 100001-1000000
(g) more than 1 million

Then in 2025 we could resurrect the zombie thread and see how things developed vs how people thought.

I think I'd go for (e) for 5 years, but (g) for 10 years.

Note this layout of the levels of automation mentions Waymo as an example of Level 4.

If we don't make it to Level 5 ("monitor and maneuver through all road conditions and require no human interventions whatsoever, eliminating the need for a steering wheel and pedals"), my prediction is it will be due to regulatory/insurance/policy/public trust/perception issues, not technical issues. And I'm not saying those other issues are non-issues and technology should just win, I'm just saying the technology is the easy part.

And of course, if we don't make it to Level 5, robot-car hawks will claim that it's a technology problem (not safe enough, not reliable enough...). And people like me will say it's a public education problem (the robot-car hawks are too stupid and/or stubborn to understand that the technology is good enough)

[EDIT] thinkng a little more, I think Level 5 is too ambitious for 5 years. Level 4 is more like it. I think Level 5, strictly interpreted, may never be possible. There will probably always be some small percentage of situations where the car will be programmed to decide that the risk is unacceptable and say something like "Due to construction/weather/whatever, I cannot drive any closer to your destination, you'll have to walk from here, or can I call you a pedicab or manual taxi" or whatever.
Unless stupidity prevails, it will easily be more than a million.
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Old 11-06-19, 01:36 AM
  #27  
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There has been and are now still important steps being made in the journey to level 5 autonomous cars. We are still in a data collection process that’s merging with creating developers that are getting better at teaching the subtle language of the road to AI. Tesla has been using its semi-autonomous AutoPilot system for years now to collect the data from real-world driving to advance its autonomous technology.

The commercialized autonomous cars in there testing areas are, importantly, now collecting data that will also be useful for the future level 5’s. The shift away from personally owned vehicles and toward a tech-enabled EV transportation system is indeed in our future, sooner in some areas, like dense urban centers, than others. It does make me smile a bit when i see some of the contributors in these kind of threads do an overindulgence of skepticism based on no real knowledge…..
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Old 11-06-19, 06:03 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Are there taxis with human drivers in Hondo? Would one of them be a viable alternative for people who are incapable of driving safely?
Chico’s Bail Bonds will pick you up from jail. That’s about all there is.

BTW, how do "we all know" that the neighbor's wife was on her cell phone at the time of the accident? Were "we" talking to her then?
No comment
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Old 11-06-19, 08:22 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Are there taxis with human drivers in Hondo? Would one of them be a viable alternative for people who are incapable of driving safely?

BTW, how do "we all know" that the neighbor's wife was on her cell phone at the time of the accident? Were "we" talking to her then?
It's another Hondo telling. Based in truth, court records don't matter. Read it for the entertainment value that HG brings to BF . . . or not.

I think BF would be a duller place without HG.
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Old 11-06-19, 08:30 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by PedalingWalrus View Post
You won't have to tip the driver
The software will still ask for a tip to help subsidize the cost of the car and software, to keep the fares affordable.

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Old 11-06-19, 09:03 AM
  #31  
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Tipping is OUT OF CONTROL :-) in the USA


Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post
The software will still ask for a tip to help subsidize the cost of the car and software, to keep the fares affordable.

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Old 11-06-19, 09:22 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post
The software will still ask for a tip to help subsidize the cost of the car and software, to keep the fares affordable.
Correct, and it will have to be a very large tip/surcharge to enable Uber/Lyft, et al. to pay for all the self driving vehicles and upkeep (purchase of vehicle, maintenance, parking, fuel,etc.), expenses that are currently being absorbed 100% by their "independently contracted" drivers. These are expenses that will not disappear because the driver has been replaced by software and hardware technology.

Perhaps BF's robo car Cracker Jack Prognosticators are aware of a dreamy plan for Google or some other deep pockets benefactor/sucker like Soft Bank to go into the self driving taxi operation business and purchase and operate all the self driving taxis in order to make the predicted Big Profits of the taxi business, just like Uber and Lyft.
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Old 11-06-19, 10:24 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Do you understand that level 5 vehicles have to be capable of driving without human assistance or oversight beyond the boundaries of tiny geo-fenced fair weather enclaves, limited to minutely mapped and coordinated with the installed vehicle proprietary software, well marked lanes, and close to ideal road conditions that are without snow, ice, fog or slippery surfaces. DO you understand that none exist now, nor have any of the promoters so far demonstrated any Level 5 prototypes that would indicate that they have "solved" the "technology problem" or will be able to solve the "technology problem" of level 5 in the next 5 years or will be capable of producing and fielding safe Level 5 vehicles in the next 5 years.
Yes. But they are always making progress. Since Waymo is on roads, we can be sure it is not the tip of the spear, there are more advanced yet still experimental and risky versions being developed in closed environments. The industry is well aware that weather and infrastructure are challenges and are working to deal with them.

Last edited by RubeRad; 11-06-19 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 11-06-19, 10:25 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Rehashing statements of a problem to solve are NOT a solution, NOR evidence that various "robo car" promoters are any closer to fielding driver less (Level 5) vehicles than they were two years ago, or that they will be any closer in 5 years.
??
Level 4 Waymo cars were not around 2 years ago, now they are. I'd say that makes us closer.
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Old 11-06-19, 10:48 AM
  #35  
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Link
It’s one thing for a car to drive itself in perfect weather. It’s quite another to do the same thing when its sensors cannot sense the road through snow, or when visibility is limited by falling precipitation,” explained Jim McBride, Ford’s technical leader for autonomous vehicles, in a statement. “In Ford’s home state of Michigan, we know weather isn’t always perfect. That’s why we’re conducting testing — for the roughly 70 percent of U.S. residents who live in snowy regions.
Link
Google has some adorable ways of weather-proofing its driverless cars. According to the company's latest monthly report on its self-driving car program, tiny windshield wipers were built to help the rooftop sensors better navigate inclement weather.

Google says the latest version of its LiDAR sensors (light and radar) are able to detect rain, as well as clouds of exhaust on cold mornings. Like human drivers, the company's self-driving prototypes, which are currently logging miles in Mountain View and Austin, can tell the difference between a drizzle and a downpour, and can adjust their speed and technique accordingly.
So yes, there's evidence that developers are aware of the problem, have not solved it yet, and are making progress.

Some weather-related issues a computer will easily be better at, such as reaction time and course-correction to pull out of a skid or a hydroplane, as well as being programmed to drive slower in those conditions in the first place, so crash consequences are less significant.

No matter what, there will be some conditions that the car can detect that will cause it to pull over and refuse to drive. There are also conditions that human drivers pull over and stop driving (or should, and humans crash all the time because they lack the judgment to stop driving in unsafe conditions). I've pulled over and waited a few minutes because a rainstorm was too intense. Does that make me not level 5?

So if humans can drive in inch-per-minute torrential rain and sustain only 100 accidents per 1000 miles driven (numbers made up), but robocars refuse to drive in inch-per-minute rain (and thus have 0 accidents in 0 miles), does that make them not level 5? Also does that make them worse than human drivers or better?
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Old 11-06-19, 10:53 AM
  #36  
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ps I-Like-To-Bike, you seem angry that some of us are optimistic about automated cars. Why is that?

I for one am glad that you and plenty of other skeptics are out there, because I have faith that you will prevent automated cars from being fielded before they are ready. Only when there is clear proof that automated cars are safer than human drivers will the public accept them.

Already experimental automated cars are experiencing safer driving than the overall human population, largely because developers only field them in contexts where they have already verified that the technology is able to be safe.
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Old 11-06-19, 12:21 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Link


Link


So yes, there's evidence that developers are aware of the problem, have not solved it yet, and are making progress.

Some weather-related issues a computer will easily be better at, such as reaction time and course-correction to pull out of a skid or a hydroplane, as well as being programmed to drive slower in those conditions in the first place, so crash consequences are less significant.

No matter what, there will be some conditions that the car can detect that will cause it to pull over and refuse to drive. There are also conditions that human drivers pull over and stop driving (or should, and humans crash all the time because they lack the judgment to stop driving in unsafe conditions). I've pulled over and waited a few minutes because a rainstorm was too intense. Does that make me not level 5?

So if humans can drive in inch-per-minute torrential rain and sustain only 100 accidents per 1000 miles driven (numbers made up), but robocars refuse to drive in inch-per-minute rain (and thus have 0 accidents in 0 miles), does that make them not level 5? Also does that make them worse than human drivers or better?
Oh man, only a Level 4 human... gosh... I guess does make you smarter than all those humans that think they can drive in zero visibility and end up in those giant horrible pile-ups.

How robotic of you.

I too recently sat out some blinding rains... how Level 4 of me.
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Old 11-06-19, 12:23 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
ps I-Like-To-Bike, you seem angry that some of us are optimistic about automated cars. Why is that?

I for one am glad that you and plenty of other skeptics are out there, because I have faith that you will prevent automated cars from being fielded before they are ready. Only when there is clear proof that automated cars are safer than human drivers will the public accept them.

Already experimental automated cars are experiencing safer driving than the overall human population, largely because developers only field them in contexts where they have already verified that the technology is able to be safe.
What experimental automated cars, do you mean - driver assisted production cars with deluxe cruise control and driver warnings, or the handful of Level 4 vehicles that are being operated without human oversight and a human ready to take control whenever any difficulty is sensed?

How did you determine that experimental automated cars are experiencing safer driving than the overall human population? Did you get the info straight from Google, Uber and Tesla or one of its publicity flacks? Did you or your source(s) compare the safety results of the so-called experimental automated cars with the safety results of humans driving in the same context - relatively calm and tightly controlled conditions (weather, road surface and markings, traffic density, traffic speed, time of day)?

Not falling for the hype, deceptions, stock/IPO pumping and fabrications spewed out by the founders and promoters of some of the most prominent organizations involved (see Elon Musk and Travis Kalanick for example), and their publicity flacks in the trade journals and blogs is not anger, it is common sense and not being a sucker anxious to be bamboozled by fast talking con men with an alleged "good idea."

BTW do you have any idea what organization is going to manufacture, sell and service the million or so so-called self driving vehicles in the next 5 years as predicted by at least one Cracker Jack swami? Who is going to buy them with all their limitations (Uber and Lyft with their red ink?) and at what price?
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Old 11-06-19, 12:36 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
What experimental automated cars, do you mean - driver assisted production cars with deluxe cruise control and driver warnings, or the handful of Level 4 vehicles that are being operated without human oversight and a human ready to take control whenever any difficulty is sensed?

How did you determine that experimental automated cars are experiencing safer driving than the overall human population? Did you get the info straight from Google, Uber and Tesla or one of its publicity flacks? Did you or your source(s) compare the safety results of the so-called experimental automated cars with the safety results of humans driving in the same context - relatively calm and tightly controlled conditions (weather, road surface and markings, traffic density, traffic speed, time of day)?

Not falling for the hype, deceptions, stock/IPO pumping and fabrications spewed out by the founders and promoters of some of the most prominent organizations involved (see Elon Musk and Travis Kalanick for example), and their publicity flacks in the trade journals and blogs is not anger, it is common sense and not being a sucker anxious to be bamboozled by fast talking con men with an alleged "good idea."

BTW do you have any idea what organization is going to manufacture, sell and service the million or so so-called self driving vehicles in the next 5 years as predicted by at least one Cracker Jack swami? Who is going to buy them with all their limitations (Uber and Lyft with their red ink?) and at what price?
Have you seen the movie "The Current War" yet?

Frankly, rather poor movie, although Benedict Cumberbatch did a pretty good job as Edison...

My point is that technology goes through fits and starts, monies are lost and gained as investors gamble on who might have the best ideas and implementation.

Your continued denial of the advances in self driving cars are like the folks that invested in oil lamps after learning that an Edison bulb lasted only 20 hours.

It may well be that no ONE buys them, and our whole transportation infrastructure changes... much as it has done, since the advent of "the horseless carriage."
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Old 11-06-19, 12:48 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
What experimental automated cars, do you mean - driver assisted production cars with deluxe cruise control and driver warnings, or the handful of Level 4 vehicles that are being operated without human oversight and a human ready to take control whenever any difficulty is sensed?
I'm talking about Level 4. Most incidents are human error in conventional cars rear-ending or side-swiping the automated cars.

How did you determine that experimental automated cars are experiencing safer driving than the overall human population? Did you get the info straight from Google, Uber and Tesla or one of its publicity flacks? Did you or your source(s) compare the safety results of the so-called experimental automated cars with the safety results of humans driving in the same context - relatively calm and tightly controlled conditions (weather, road surface and markings, traffic density, traffic speed, time of day)?
(a) of course the first fully-automated experiments are deployed in easy conditions. It would be madness to expect otherwise. But as previously linked, Ford is working on handling snow conditions. Companies are making good-faith efforts to experiment with boundary conditions in controlled environments, and only release cars into the wild when they are confident (and can convince regulators) that the risk is acceptably low.

(b) how exactly do you think this coverup works, experimental automated cars are having tons of accidents out there, and the human victims (and media outlets) are all being persuaded to forgo the opportunity of sensationalized headlines?

BTW do you have any idea what organization is going to manufacture, sell and service the million or so so-called self driving vehicles in the next 5 years as predicted by at least one Cracker Jack swami? Who is going to buy them with all their limitations (Uber and Lyft with their red ink?) and at what price?
That is a very important question, and the answer will surely be whoever thinks it can do it profitably (including accounting for liability costs). In some cases it could be car manufacturers themselves; Volvo has said they will accept full liability whenever one of its cars is in autonomous mode. There is a lot of speculation, however, that the american model of private car ownership will be radically altered. Like for instance, the norm will no longer be 2- or 3-car families, but families who mostly use ubiquitous automated taxi services, and maybe own 1 car that makes better sense in some circumstances. And certainly there will be different patterns of private car ownership for urban, suburban, and rural demographics

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Old 11-06-19, 12:58 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Have you seen the movie "The Current War" yet?

Frankly, rather poor movie, although Benedict Cumberbatch did a pretty good job as Edison...

My point is that technology goes through fits and starts, monies are lost and gained as investors gamble on who might have the best ideas and implementation.

Your continued denial of the advances in self driving cars are like the folks that invested in oil lamps after learning that an Edison bulb lasted only 20 hours.

It may well be that no ONE buys them, and our whole transportation infrastructure changes... much as it has done, since the advent of "the horseless carriage."
Is that your driver less car prediction for the next 5 years - go see a movie about Edison and talk vaguely about fits and starts, "what may well be", and good ideas - but no substance?

Or are you predicting that all Level 5 cars in 5 years will still have a 100% positive safety record since they will still be parked in their garages/workshops and not being driven anywhere by foolish and stupid humans none of whom are as skilled and smart at driving as yourself?
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Old 11-06-19, 12:59 PM
  #42  
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Not falling for the hype, deceptions, stock/IPO pumping and fabrications spewed out by the founders and promoters of some of the most prominent organizations involved (see Elon Musk and Travis Kalanick for example), and their publicity flacks in the trade journals and blogs is not anger, it is common sense and not being a sucker anxious to be bamboozled by fast talking con men with an alleged "good idea."

Good for you (no sarcasm), please don't fall for hype, deceptions or fabrications. As I said before, I'm counting on you and yours to provide more suspicious consideration than myself.

If it could at some point be proved that level 5 vehicles had a 50% lower traffic fatality rate (based on controlled and indpendently audited testing in Iowa, or a state with a comparable mix of driving conditions), would you vote to allow them? What if the 50% lower fatality rate came at a cost of being annoyingly conservative (to include driving really slow, or pulling over and refusing to move) in response to adverse conditions?
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Old 11-06-19, 01:30 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
I'm talking about Level 4. Most incidents are human error in conventional cars rear-ending or side-swiping the automated cars.


(a) of course the first fully-automated experiments are deployed in easy conditions. It would be madness to expect otherwise. But as previously linked, Ford is working on handling snow conditions. Companies are making good-faith efforts to experiment with boundary conditions in controlled environments, and only release cars into the wild when they are confident (and can convince regulators) that the risk is acceptably low.

(b) how exactly do you think this coverup works, experimental automated cars are having tons of accidents out there, and the human victims (and media outlets) are all being persuaded to forgo the opportunity of sensationalized headlines?


That is a very important question, and the answer will surely be whoever thinks it can do it profitably (including accounting for liability costs). In some cases it could be car manufacturers themselves; Volvo has said they will accept full liability whenever one of its cars is in autonomous mode. There is a lot of speculation, however, that the american model of private car ownership will be radically altered. Like for instance, the norm will no longer be 2- or 3-car families, but families who mostly use ubiquitous automated taxi services, and maybe own 1 car that makes better sense in some circumstances. And certainly there will be different patterns of private car ownership for urban, suburban, and rural demographics
Perhaps you should read this https://theconversation.com/are-auto...-drivers-90202which was cited in the same article that you referenced about autonomous car safety and fault for accidents.

Comparing appropriate statistics

Crash statistics for human-driven cars are compiled from all sorts of driving situations, and on all types of roads. This includes people driving through pouring rain, on dirt roads and climbing steep slopes in the snow. However, much of the data on self-driving cars’ safety comes from Western states of the U.S., often in good weather. Large amounts of the data have been recorded on unidirectional, multi-lane highways, where the most important tasks are staying in the car’s own lane and not getting too close to the vehicle ahead.

Automated cars are rather good at those kinds of tasks – but then again, so are humans. The data on fully automated systems will naturally expand to cover more roads as states allow automated vehicles to operate more widely. But it will take some time before self-driving cars can cover as many miles in a year and in as many circumstances as human drivers presently do.
Autonomous cars are good at driving on clear, open highways in good weather – but so are people.

It is true that self-driving cars don’t get tired, angry, frustrated or drunk. But neither can they yet react to uncertain and ambiguous situations with the same skill or anticipation of an attentive human driver, which suggests that perhaps the two still need to work together. Nor do purely automated vehicles possess the foresight to avoid potential peril: They largely drive from moment to moment, rather than thinking ahead to possible events literally down the road.

To an automated vision system, a bus shelter full of people might appear quite similar to an uninhabited corn field. Indeed, deciding what action to take in an emergency is difficult for humans, but drivers have sacrificed themselves for the greater good of others. An automated system’s limited understanding of the world means it will almost never evaluate a situation the same way a human would. And machines can’t be specifically programmed in advance to handle every imaginable set of events.
Level 4 cars are NOT self driving cars, nor are the current crop with extremely limited areas of operation something that a normal rational car buyer would buy,except maybe for use as a taxi cab in a small geographic area that fit the vehicle's limitations.

"Working on difficult conditions" and "making good-faith efforts to experiment with boundary conditions" are NOT evidence of resolving autonomous driving under those allegedly "difficult conditions" that normal drivers handle every day, year round, all over every country in the world, nor are they any guarantee that practical solutions to driving in the "difficult conditions" will be found in 5 years (other than stay parked in the garage until the weather and road conditions match Chandler AZ) or any time in the foreseeable future.

Given that Volvo doesn't manufacture or sell any autonomous driving cars their acceptance of liability for imaginary vehicles doesn't impress me as much as it apparently does for you.

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Old 11-06-19, 01:43 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Good for you (no sarcasm), please don't fall for hype, deceptions or fabrications. As I said before, I'm counting on you and yours to provide more suspicious consideration than myself.

If it could at some point be proved that level 5 vehicles had a 50% lower traffic fatality rate (based on controlled and indpendently audited testing in Iowa, or a state with a comparable mix of driving conditions), would you vote to allow them? What if the 50% lower fatality rate came at a cost of being annoyingly conservative (to include driving really slow, or pulling over and refusing to move) in response to adverse conditions?
If pigs could fly maybe we wouldn't need self driving cars because maybe pigs can be taught not to crash into each other, at least when the weather is favorable for pig flight.

Speculating about courses of action to take based on an assumed future safety record based itself on nothing but speculation about a product under development and promoters' sales pitches may be entertaining, but not very productive.
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Old 11-06-19, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Given that Volvo doesn't manufacture or sell any autonomous driving cars their acceptance of liability for imaginary vehicles doesn't impress me as much as it apparently does for you.

Volvo, which was acquired by Zhejiang Geely Holding of China in 2010, unveiled an interface that will allow drivers to activate and deactivate the autonomous mode through specially-designed paddles on the steering wheel. The interface, called IntelliSafe Auto Pilot, will be available for the first time on 100 XC90 model cars that Volvo will make available for its Drive Me project in Gothenburg, Sweden in 2017. The interface was developed to oversee how drivers will transfer control to a car’s autonomous driving mode in future cars.

The Drive Me project will make 100 self-driving Volvos available to consumers around Gothenburg for use in everyday driving conditions, according to the company. The cars will be driven autonomously on about 50 kilometers (31 miles) of selected roads.
But you're right, there's never any snow in Sweden.
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Old 11-06-19, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
If pigs could fly maybe we wouldn't need self driving cars because maybe pigs can be taught not to crash into each other, at least when the weather is favorable for pig flight.

Speculating about courses of action to take based on an assumed future safety record based itself on nothing but speculation about a product under development and promoters' sales pitches may be entertaining, but not very productive.
OK I'll read that as you admitting you are completely closed-minded and will not even consider the possibility that the technology could reach level 5, or examine any evidence anybody might put forward.
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Old 11-06-19, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
OK I'll read that as you admitting you are completely closed-minded and will not even consider the possibility that the technology could reach level 5, or examine any evidence anybody might put forward.
What evidence has anybody put forward about the five year future of Level 5 self driving vehicles other than we/they are working on it and would like to see it happen sometime, preferably sooner rather than later or never?
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Old 11-06-19, 02:06 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
But you're right, there's never any snow in Sweden.
"...unveiled an interface that will allow drivers to activate and deactivate ..."

So much for driver less vehicles from Volvo.

The solution as has been previously suggested apparently is to keep muddying the waters of definitions and use of the terms for autonomous, self driving, driver assist, Level 4, Level 5 etc. in order to keep the hype in the news.
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Old 11-06-19, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Perhaps you should read this https://theconversation.com/are-auto...-drivers-90202which was cited in the same article that you referenced about autonomous car safety and fault for accidents.
OK I read it. It makes some fine points. But it makes no argument that the current safety statistics are wrong, only that they are limited. We all know the current sample is limited. "The data on fully automated systems will naturally expand to cover more roads as states allow automated vehicles to operate more widely."

So automated vehicle development and usage will expand only as far as safety can be demonstrated. Fine, today they can drive in Chandler. Ford is actively working on snow in Michigan. Volvo is actively testing in Gothenberg.

"To an automated vision system, a bus shelter full of people might appear quite similar to an uninhabited corn field. Indeed, deciding what action to take in an emergency is difficult for humans, but drivers have sacrificed themselves for the greater good of others." Those are really edge cases that are just red herrings to the discussion. What percentage of car accidents involve a split-second trolley-problem decision? And what percentage of those could have been avoided entirely, or at least mitigated if the driver had a faster reaction time, or maintained a larger distance in front of them, or drove slower, etc?

I don't know about you, but I'm willing to sacrifice 5 bus stops full of nuns and orphans per year, to achieve a 5% reduction in national traffic fatalities.
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Old 11-06-19, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
"...unveiled an interface that will allow drivers to activate and deactivate ..."

So much for driver less vehicles from Volvo.

The solution as has been previously suggested apparently is to keep muddying the waters of definitions and use of the terms for autonomous, self driving, driver assist, Level 4, Level 5 etc. in order to keep the hype in the news.
How do you propose the testing be done? Just start making level 5 cars with no steering wheels or brakes and hope for the best?
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