Soody

I picked this frame up pretty cheap. Went to do the headset. The bottom cup just came right out of the frame. It seemed to be held in with the power of dirty grease. The headtube does not appear to be cracked.
I cut a strip out of a can and think with 1 layer of that it would get a pretty good press fit, although I didn't keep pressing it in and i don't know if that's a good idea or not.
The top cup is in place firmly but it has some stuff going on around it that i initially thought was rust repair but maybe it's related.

The frame is columbus SL, belgium made i think although any info on that too would be cool.
The headset is veloce, reasonable condition, although it was dry.

What should I do here?
I have a nice shimano 600 tricolour headset in the parts bin if that could help

Soody

the bb is cinelli english

merziac

@Soody

That top looks like it might have been impinged from the outside like the way fork crown seats are done with a ring of center punch dimples to get the crown race to "bite".

Mackers

Diamant is another of the myriad of brands produced by Martelly/Eddy Martens bitd.

T-Mar

That's the 1988+ version of the SL decal, while the Triomphe crankset, if OEM, would place it pre-1990. Normally by this time I'd expect a 2nd set of bottle bosses and a pump peg on the frame but Eurpoean market models often eschewed these features.

JohnDThompson 

The head tube has probably been reamed oversize (dull tool?) allowing the cup to fall out. Use e.g. Locktite-609 bearing retaining compound when you re-install the headset.

https://www.amazon.com/LOCTITE-609-R.../dp/B01HSUDO98

Soody

Cheers. So ~1989. Older than me.
What do you reckon this was, prior to rust repair? Number holder or pump peg?

Soody

thanks. This is probably the right move. What do you guys think about shimming it with a strip of allum from a beer can and just pressing it in though? That would save me $50 on the loctite. Not insignificant compared to the price of the frame, wheels, and crank ($140).
(NZD so 70cents on the US$).
I probably should just do the loctite right

Slight concern about it is the cup has deformed a little at the top and has a tiny amount of play when sitting in the headtube.
Loctite 609 says it: Fills gaps to 0.2mm
So that should be ok. The allum stock from a beer can shim (which seems to give a press fit) is 0.1mm. 0.1mm either side. Right on the limit but should work?

For Disassembly 1. Apply localized heat to the assembly to approximately 250 °C. Disassemble while hot
This part gives me slight pause as well but I don't have any intention to paint the frame and the headset should last a long time. I just wonder what removal would actually entail. Presumably, destroying the paint on the headtube. And could it be done with a small creme-brule type blowtorch?

noglider 

In theory, the shim might throw your alignment out, but in practice, it's likely to work just fine. I say do it.

unworthy1

the bit ground off was probably a "race number tab", very popular with Benelux frames whether intended for any actual race or merely to look the part. I have used a strip of AL can but you want to make one full loop around the circumference to keep the cup or race centered, if that's too thick then maybe the LocTite Green is a better choice. I have that too and never needed high heat to drive anything apart but maybe was a looser gap than ideal. I think you can find it sold in a smaller bottle than the one JDT pictured (but maybe not in NZ).
OR try the "dimpling" with a sharp center punch on the collars of the HS cups/races (not on the exterior of the head lugs) better parts to try that experiment on!

Soody

It was atleast raced in NZ. Dion Mcguinness has his name on the top tube and is described in the 2005 Wanganui Chronicle as part of a 'hard-riding quartet of scratch men' coming in sixth place of a local race.

Russ Roth

Have you actually tested that shimano headset to see if the cup will just pop in and out? If the campy has been popped in and out of headtube one too many times it might just be worn and won't hold, I'd tend towards shimming as well.

Soody

This is a shame. BB badly pitted. Thoughts on trying a 107mm UN-55? The campag spindle is 114.5. So it's close to what sheldon says with 4.5mm less each side for a JIS taper. Campag bb is 4 times as expensive. The NDS arm has a self extracting bolt. Not sure if that would be an issue.

Soody

Hmm yeah cheers i will do that. Have to take it out of a crashed frame first.

bargo68 

Hey @Soody, sorry to hear about your headset issues. Here are some pix of my mid-90's Diamant. I got this from Craigslist about a year ago. This is the original build, and I have since fully torn it down and rebuilt it with downtube shifters as the 105 STI's were pretty shot. It has Columbus SL main tubes and is a unique monostay design. The bit missing on yours is indeed a number hanger. I wrote to Eddy Martens and he kindly informed me that he built this bike for the NV Simons Co. in Bekkevoort in 1994. He also told me the fork is not original to the bike. When I had it all apart, I weighed the frame and fork separately and the frame is appx 1950 gms and the fork is 600. Pretty svelte!




Monostay seat cluster:




'Webbed" bottom bracket:





It's a zippy ride. I haven't spent too much time on it, but I'm looking forward to getting out on it more.

Soody

lovely bike man

Soody

I cut a tool from some old steel risers and got the spare headset out. Wa la the 600 cup needs to be pressed in, so i'll go shimano on the bottom campag on top unless that is offensive to anyone. The crown race needs to be changed over also because the bearings are different and hopefully the forks are the same diameter.
Also I have this less extreme loctite available that I could use when I install the cup, just incase that might help avoid what happened to the old cup. Or would just grease be better?
This whole thing is also telling me i should make/buy a press and not use a hammer to install headsets...

Soody

some potential parts & i weighed the frame
2126 frame
693 fork
minus a crown race and 1 headset cup apiece so a few grams.
Heavier than the one above. Well that ones newer so makes sense I guess.

unworthy1

If that cup has the correct dimension to be a snug press-fit then just lightly grease it, I would not use LocTite of any color/flavor. But surprised that since ISO (Campy) cups are supposed to be 30.2mm and JIS are supposed to be 30.0mm you seem to have the opposite situation, but could be just the luck of tolerances. Plus the bottom of the lower headlug sure looks like paint damaged due to something that could have caused the inner diameter to be enlarged (I'd try taking a bunch of measurements and averaging them just to satisfy my curiosity). But what works is what works, if you need a 26.4 crownrace for that 600 (and happen to have a 27.0) they DO exist but you'll have to "go fish" (and I do not have such a fish, myself).Best of luck, this should be a fine ride when you get it all sorted!

BTW, GOOD idea to use a press and not hammer the cups but if you don't have $$ for a proper tool you can make a cheap but effective substitute with a length of all-thread (threaded rod) and a stack of washers and some nuts, see Sheldon Brown's site for pictures, Slightly clumsy to use but very much an improvement over hammer/blocks of wood!

juvela

-----

shimming note, should you elect to go that route -

it is necessary to be very careful not to permit any shim material to get between cup/race and its seat

you can take good care in trimming the material and setting everything up only to have to material get between a race or cup and its seat during the pressing process

if this occurs it affects the operation of the headset as parallelism of the fittings will be off...

-----

Soody

Ahhh this is sadly the case. The 600 crown race i pulled off is loose on the Diamant fork crown. Why is everything slightly different lol. There are a couple of shops i can check that might have it.
And yeah, I will make that press like you suggest. I made the sheldon tool for removing the bottom bracket fixed cup on this bike and was very happy with it.

Good point. I do not think I will have to shim the cup. The 600 cup should press in well. I tried for a minute to shim the loose crown race I have now, but realised the shim slipping down would be quite hard to avoid. Maybe having the shim protrude up the fork steerer and clamping it with a hose clamp before pressing the race down onto it. The whole shimming business is really best avoided I think. I might revisit the loctite suggested above for the crown race if i cannot find one the correct size for the crown, and the bearings. Iunno.

Soody

positive progress:
$20 new 7spd shimano tourney 14-28 freewheel, to replace the close block 6spd, fits with no spacing required.
the 600 mech seems to work with the range of the freewheel. And it cleaned up nicely. And I got a nice campag front mech for $20 too.
(70c on the NZdollar so like $14 each)

Soody

Scavanged some set screws from a columbus dropout on a bent frame. Bent the screws straight. Chased the threads and put em in with some grease. Sadly missing one end cap. Seems to work well. Fitment with the 27" wheel and short reach brakes is quite good.
This must have been a 700c frame though right? I think the guy just gave me a junk wheel he had lying around, but the suzue hub is butter smooth and tyre is ok so i'll use it. I think it's slightly out of dish but I'll fix that when I replace the messed spoke.
The clearance is surprisingly decent for a race frame. 32mm with a 27" wheel. So more with 700c. I wonder if that's for the ol' Belgian cobblestones.

Soody

I found this 1" threadless headset i forgot i had on the shelf.
It -seems- like it will press on the crown race and headtube and give a good fit.
So I could mix and match it with the athena on top. What do you guys think? This should work right?
I am also waiting for a threaded rod & flanged nuts and washers I ordered to make a press tool to do it properly.

unworthy1

Re: the mix-max headset idea, yeah it could work, stack height is the issue but the bottom stack of this Cane Creek is 12mm, how's that compare to the Athena? If shorter then you may just need to add a thicker spacer or additional thin one at the top, no biggie. Re: the 27" wheels (and I say "correct, this frame was made for 700C") the brake pads may NOT be making best contact, check and confirm when the wheel is in correct (forward) position in the DO slot. You may be advised to get a proper set of wheels, this frame deserves a little love and can't scrimp on everything (wheels are very important to ride quality and handling)