Folks who use Trek/Bontrager's DuoTrap S speed/cadence sensor, please step inside...
02-05-15, 07:20 PM
#1
Flyin' under the radar
Thread Starter
Folks who use Trek/Bontrager's DuoTrap S speed/cadence sensor, please step inside...
I need to gather some data points, and am requesting your help. Essentially, I need to know if you're having any connectivity issues with your DuoTrap S sensor and your cycling computer.
The problem: I get multiple speed dropouts per ride, where my Garmin will show a speed of 0 mph, it will auto-pause, and then immediately auto-resume and register my existing speed . . . all while still moving.
To Trek's credit, they've replaced my DuoTrap S sensor multiple times under warranty, but I still have the same issue. With the last sensor replacement, they connected it to a different Garmin unit than mine . . . and that unit didn't display any problems. So Trek thinks it's the Garmin. I've contacted Garmin support, and they think the problem is the sensor. I've heard from other members here who are having the same problem, but no one can seem to pinpoint whether the problem is with Garmin, or with the DuoTrap S.
Does anyone here with a DuoTrap S not have connectivity problems with their cycling computer? I haven't heard from anyone yet who has said their unit works flawlessly. Thanks for your help!
The problem: I get multiple speed dropouts per ride, where my Garmin will show a speed of 0 mph, it will auto-pause, and then immediately auto-resume and register my existing speed . . . all while still moving.
To Trek's credit, they've replaced my DuoTrap S sensor multiple times under warranty, but I still have the same issue. With the last sensor replacement, they connected it to a different Garmin unit than mine . . . and that unit didn't display any problems. So Trek thinks it's the Garmin. I've contacted Garmin support, and they think the problem is the sensor. I've heard from other members here who are having the same problem, but no one can seem to pinpoint whether the problem is with Garmin, or with the DuoTrap S.
Does anyone here with a DuoTrap S not have connectivity problems with their cycling computer? I haven't heard from anyone yet who has said their unit works flawlessly. Thanks for your help!
02-05-15, 08:39 PM
#2
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I just got mine and only did one ride. But I did put 6000 miles on my original duotrap and never had a problem.
Last edited by GlennR; 02-05-15 at 09:30 PM.
02-06-15, 06:14 AM
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Been using mine S sensor since late July and haven't had any issues with my Garmin 510
02-06-15, 06:48 AM
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no issues with mine, using it with a garmin 810.
02-06-15, 07:43 AM
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I have the duo trap and the current duo trap with Bluetooth, not the S. But no issues here, 3 bikes with them.
02-06-15, 08:37 AM
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I need to gather some data points, and am requesting your help. Essentially, I need to know if you're having any connectivity issues with your DuoTrap S sensor and your cycling computer.
The problem: I get multiple speed dropouts per ride, where my Garmin will show a speed of 0 mph, it will auto-pause, and then immediately auto-resume and register my existing speed . . . all while still moving.
The problem: I get multiple speed dropouts per ride, where my Garmin will show a speed of 0 mph, it will auto-pause, and then immediately auto-resume and register my existing speed . . . all while still moving.
I have an ambit 2 sports watch that is ant+ and has worked fine with a garmin speed/cadence sensor on my mountain bike. It's also listed as compatible with the older ant+ only duotrap on the ant+ web site. (The new duotrap s isn't listed on the site last I checked.)
However, it doesn't work well with the duotrap S. I get the same thing where the speed drops -typically reading half what it was a second ago, then back up to what seems like the right speed. The reading bounces around quite frequently. The cadence part seems much more reliable, but there are drops with that also.
Tests and things I've tried:
1) At the LBS we had some random simple ant+ head unit and my watch simultaneously held near the duotrap while the bike was pedaled steadily on a bike stand. My watch's speed reading bounced around, while the other device held steady. It seemed, however, that the other device might have been ignoring a loss in signal longer as it seemed less responsive in general.
2) I've tried a fresh battery with no changes
3) I've tried using the bluetooth signal with my phone and it seemed fine, though it wasn't a riding test so I'm not 100% confident. Plus I didn't have a very good phone app to test with bluetooth so the test was a bit wonky.
4) I've been using the cadence part with a PC and ant+ dongle with cyclops virtual trainer software and the cadence is relatively stable, with some occasional drops.
5) I tried a different magnet on the spokes though the magnet that comes with it does get extremely close to the sensor so I didn't think there would be a problem. Conversely my wife's silque, which uses the older duotrap, did have a problem where the magnet was too far away from the sensor (so much for designing a sensor and bike together...) so I changed it to an extra spoke magnet I had that was bigger/stronger to fix that one.
6) I reported the problem to Suunto (watch maker) but didn't really get anywhere. They need an engineer to test the duotrap with their watch and see what's going on, but all I got was generic advice from a support grunt.
My wife has a garmin 510 that I need to try with my bike at some point. I've given up on my watch ever working with it, so I just need to find something that does. I've got my eye on maybe replacing my watch with a garmin fenix3, but I don't know if that works ok with the duotrap. I might get a 510 for my bike if that ends up being compatible.
What garmin are you using?
02-06-15, 09:20 AM
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My wife and I both have the DuoTrap S and Edge 1000 units. (8.4 DS and Neko SL)
I have not had any issues at all, but she had problems that were very similar to yours in the beginning.
In her case, it was spoke magnet that was the issue. It was aligned correctly, but the tiniest bit too far from the sensor. Our mechanic ended up gluing two magnets together to reduce the distance and the problem was solved.
I have not had any issues at all, but she had problems that were very similar to yours in the beginning.
In her case, it was spoke magnet that was the issue. It was aligned correctly, but the tiniest bit too far from the sensor. Our mechanic ended up gluing two magnets together to reduce the distance and the problem was solved.
02-06-15, 10:47 AM
#9
SuperGimp
Unrelated but I used to have colossal problems with my garmin GSC-10, so I did what Ragriz did and put rare earth magnets on top of my spoke magnet, problem solved.
https://www.amazon.com/Neodymium-Magn...+earth+magnets
For the price, it's worth a try before you get embroiled in garmin's returns processes. You dont' even need to glue them on.
https://www.amazon.com/Neodymium-Magn...+earth+magnets
For the price, it's worth a try before you get embroiled in garmin's returns processes. You dont' even need to glue them on.
02-06-15, 10:54 AM
#10
Senior Member
My wife and I both have the DuoTrap S and Edge 1000 units. (8.4 DS and Neko SL)
I have not had any issues at all, but she had problems that were very similar to yours in the beginning.
In her case, it was spoke magnet that was the issue. It was aligned correctly, but the tiniest bit too far from the sensor. Our mechanic ended up gluing two magnets together to reduce the distance and the problem was solved.
I have not had any issues at all, but she had problems that were very similar to yours in the beginning.
In her case, it was spoke magnet that was the issue. It was aligned correctly, but the tiniest bit too far from the sensor. Our mechanic ended up gluing two magnets together to reduce the distance and the problem was solved.
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02-06-15, 11:19 AM
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The magnets need to be lined up perfectly. I had initial issues with the cadence and speed dropping randomly on a Garmin 810 and once I finally got it dialed in it has never failed to register.
02-06-15, 11:35 AM
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My wife has a new Domane and had one installed. No idea if she likes it, no idea if she has trouble with it.
Glad I could help.
Glad I could help.
02-06-15, 11:39 AM
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Dave, I have neither Duo Trap sensors nor a Garmin head unit, BUT after many years of troubleshooting speed and cadence sensor/computer issues, I think that there are two main causes of the kinds of problems you are having. They are both about signal reception.
The first problem is that not every wheel or crank revolution is being sensed by the sensors. That is due to slightly improper positioning of the magnets relative to the sensors. If there is a line inscribed on the sensor, that is where the magnet must pass, and it needs to be close. Yes, adding a small rare earth magnet on top of the wheel or cadence magnet can also help.
The second problem is that the head unit (computer) isn't receiving the signal reliably from the sensors. Try putting your Garmin right next to the sensors and see if that helps. If it does, the signals are too weak to get to the front of the bike, or the Garmin isn't capable of receiving them well enough. If you find that everything works well when the Garmin is close to the sensors but not when the Garmin is mounted on your bars, I think you have a justification for a warranty replacement of the Garmin. Many cheap computers can't pick up the signal from the rear of the bike, and can only be used with wheel sensors on the front wheel. That shouldn't be the case with the Garmin, which is intended to be used with crank and rear wheel sensors. Basically those are the two most common problems. Good luck.
The first problem is that not every wheel or crank revolution is being sensed by the sensors. That is due to slightly improper positioning of the magnets relative to the sensors. If there is a line inscribed on the sensor, that is where the magnet must pass, and it needs to be close. Yes, adding a small rare earth magnet on top of the wheel or cadence magnet can also help.
The second problem is that the head unit (computer) isn't receiving the signal reliably from the sensors. Try putting your Garmin right next to the sensors and see if that helps. If it does, the signals are too weak to get to the front of the bike, or the Garmin isn't capable of receiving them well enough. If you find that everything works well when the Garmin is close to the sensors but not when the Garmin is mounted on your bars, I think you have a justification for a warranty replacement of the Garmin. Many cheap computers can't pick up the signal from the rear of the bike, and can only be used with wheel sensors on the front wheel. That shouldn't be the case with the Garmin, which is intended to be used with crank and rear wheel sensors. Basically those are the two most common problems. Good luck.
02-06-15, 02:13 PM
#14
Flyin' under the radar
Thread Starter
Thanks everyone for the input. I posted a similar thread in the electronics forum shortly after I started having issues back in August/September. The purpose of this thread was: 1) to determine if anyone had a flawlessly-functioning DuoTrap S (DTS) + cycling computer, and 2) reach a larger audience to try to unscientifically ascertain what percentage of users were having problems with their DTS. Note that for my purposes here, I'm not interested in gathering data on the older ANT+only DuoTrap as it's not relevant to my fault tracing. Y'all's input has been helpful.
In the other thread, I wrote this:
In my case, over the course of multiple DTS units, rare earth magnets haven't affected the functionality.
I'm not a computer geek, so I'm kind out of my element here. But I'm wondering if there's some sort of bit rate conflict going on. Theoretically, if the DTS is broadcasting at a specific bit rate, and the Garmin is listening at a slightly different bit rate, it could make sense that the Garmin would acquire the majority of the data, but wouldn't in those instances where there was no overlap in the bit rate, and hence, the auto-pause/auto-resume. In other words, I think there's something fundamentally wrong with the DTS and its communication protocol. I say this because my Garmin works perfectly fine when synced with the GSC-10. But then apparently some people are not having any problems with their DTS at all . . . which really has me no closer to narrowing down whether the problem is my Garmin, or my DTS.
In my latest communication with Garmin support, they recommended I reformat the Edge . . . but I have to use a Windows computer to do it, and I don't own one, so not sure how I'm going to manage that. Anyways, they said that if I still experienced the problem after reformatting the Edge, they'd send out a replacement. I don't think reformatting it will do anything, but it'll be interesting to see if a replacement unit performs any better (and might answer the question as to whether the problem is Garmin, or the DTS).
@DonBjr: I'm using a Garmin Edge 500.
@VeeArSix, @obed7, & @Ragriz: out of curiosity, what model bike and what frame size?
@Munk69: to be clear, are you using a DuoTrap, or a DuoTrap S?
In the other thread, I wrote this:
Originally Posted by RNAV
Fault-tracing that I have already attempted:
1. Adjusted Bontrager-supplied wheel speed magnet location & orientation multiple times -- no change.
2. Replaced Bontrager wheel speed magnet with a super strong rare earth metal magnet -- no change.
3. Replaced cadence sensor magnet with a super strong rare earth metal magnet -- no change.
4. De-paired and re-paired DTS with Edge 500; ensured all other ANT+ sensors were off -- no change.
5. Replaced DTS battery with new, and different brand -- no change.
6. Every time speed is dropped, I'll hit the lap button on my Edge 500. I have been unable to detect any consistent timing between drops; the speeds are not identical; the cadence is not identical. In other words, it occurs entirely at random and I cannot ascertain any pattern to the drop.
7. Before every ride I spin the rear wheel & cranks, verify that the appropriate lights on the DTS illuminate to indicate that the sensor is reading correctly. I can hear the magnets actuating the sensor as they pass by. I also verify that my Edge 500 has recognized and synced with the DTS prior to beginning the ride.
1. Adjusted Bontrager-supplied wheel speed magnet location & orientation multiple times -- no change.
2. Replaced Bontrager wheel speed magnet with a super strong rare earth metal magnet -- no change.
3. Replaced cadence sensor magnet with a super strong rare earth metal magnet -- no change.
4. De-paired and re-paired DTS with Edge 500; ensured all other ANT+ sensors were off -- no change.
5. Replaced DTS battery with new, and different brand -- no change.
6. Every time speed is dropped, I'll hit the lap button on my Edge 500. I have been unable to detect any consistent timing between drops; the speeds are not identical; the cadence is not identical. In other words, it occurs entirely at random and I cannot ascertain any pattern to the drop.
7. Before every ride I spin the rear wheel & cranks, verify that the appropriate lights on the DTS illuminate to indicate that the sensor is reading correctly. I can hear the magnets actuating the sensor as they pass by. I also verify that my Edge 500 has recognized and synced with the DTS prior to beginning the ride.
I'm not a computer geek, so I'm kind out of my element here. But I'm wondering if there's some sort of bit rate conflict going on. Theoretically, if the DTS is broadcasting at a specific bit rate, and the Garmin is listening at a slightly different bit rate, it could make sense that the Garmin would acquire the majority of the data, but wouldn't in those instances where there was no overlap in the bit rate, and hence, the auto-pause/auto-resume. In other words, I think there's something fundamentally wrong with the DTS and its communication protocol. I say this because my Garmin works perfectly fine when synced with the GSC-10. But then apparently some people are not having any problems with their DTS at all . . . which really has me no closer to narrowing down whether the problem is my Garmin, or my DTS.
In my latest communication with Garmin support, they recommended I reformat the Edge . . . but I have to use a Windows computer to do it, and I don't own one, so not sure how I'm going to manage that. Anyways, they said that if I still experienced the problem after reformatting the Edge, they'd send out a replacement. I don't think reformatting it will do anything, but it'll be interesting to see if a replacement unit performs any better (and might answer the question as to whether the problem is Garmin, or the DTS).
@DonBjr: I'm using a Garmin Edge 500.
@VeeArSix, @obed7, & @Ragriz: out of curiosity, what model bike and what frame size?
@Munk69: to be clear, are you using a DuoTrap, or a DuoTrap S?
02-06-15, 03:25 PM
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I'll have to setup my wife's 510 to see how that goes. I'll also play with my cellphone as I have a different one now which does ant+.
My own thought was that maybe the bluetooth part has been interfering with the ant+ part, or the cadence magnet and speed magnets interfere if they happen to pass the sensor close to the same time.
I know it's not how close the receiver is as I've had it happen with the receiver (my watch) held right next to the thing. And the speed magnet is in the right position and passes so close that it hits if it's turned slightly on the spoke, though I can't say whether it's just a weak magnet or not. Also, there's a plastic case around it so the magnet itself is at least that thickness further away than it appears to be.
My own thought was that maybe the bluetooth part has been interfering with the ant+ part, or the cadence magnet and speed magnets interfere if they happen to pass the sensor close to the same time.
I know it's not how close the receiver is as I've had it happen with the receiver (my watch) held right next to the thing. And the speed magnet is in the right position and passes so close that it hits if it's turned slightly on the spoke, though I can't say whether it's just a weak magnet or not. Also, there's a plastic case around it so the magnet itself is at least that thickness further away than it appears to be.
02-06-15, 03:31 PM
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oops, my error... I do not use a duotrap s, I use a duo trap with my garmin 810. I have no experience with a duotrap s.
02-06-15, 06:33 PM
#18
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Duo Trap S to Cateye 50. It drops out for 30 seconds or so one or two rides a month. Rode about 2k miles with this setup.
02-07-15, 04:53 AM
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Thanks everyone for the input. I posted a similar thread in the electronics forum shortly after I started having issues back in August/September. The purpose of this thread was: 1) to determine if anyone had a flawlessly-functioning DuoTrap S (DTS) + cycling computer, and 2) reach a larger audience to try to unscientifically ascertain what percentage of users were having problems with their DTS. Note that for my purposes here, I'm not interested in gathering data on the older ANT+only DuoTrap as it's not relevant to my fault tracing. Y'all's input has been helpful.
In the other thread, I wrote this:
In my case, over the course of multiple DTS units, rare earth magnets haven't affected the functionality.
I'm not a computer geek, so I'm kind out of my element here. But I'm wondering if there's some sort of bit rate conflict going on. Theoretically, if the DTS is broadcasting at a specific bit rate, and the Garmin is listening at a slightly different bit rate, it could make sense that the Garmin would acquire the majority of the data, but wouldn't in those instances where there was no overlap in the bit rate, and hence, the auto-pause/auto-resume. In other words, I think there's something fundamentally wrong with the DTS and its communication protocol. I say this because my Garmin works perfectly fine when synced with the GSC-10. But then apparently some people are not having any problems with their DTS at all . . . which really has me no closer to narrowing down whether the problem is my Garmin, or my DTS.
In my latest communication with Garmin support, they recommended I reformat the Edge . . . but I have to use a Windows computer to do it, and I don't own one, so not sure how I'm going to manage that. Anyways, they said that if I still experienced the problem after reformatting the Edge, they'd send out a replacement. I don't think reformatting it will do anything, but it'll be interesting to see if a replacement unit performs any better (and might answer the question as to whether the problem is Garmin, or the DTS).
@DonBjr: I'm using a Garmin Edge 500.
@VeeArSix, @obed7, & @Ragriz: out of curiosity, what model bike and what frame size?
@Munk69: to be clear, are you using a DuoTrap, or a DuoTrap S?
In the other thread, I wrote this:
In my case, over the course of multiple DTS units, rare earth magnets haven't affected the functionality.
I'm not a computer geek, so I'm kind out of my element here. But I'm wondering if there's some sort of bit rate conflict going on. Theoretically, if the DTS is broadcasting at a specific bit rate, and the Garmin is listening at a slightly different bit rate, it could make sense that the Garmin would acquire the majority of the data, but wouldn't in those instances where there was no overlap in the bit rate, and hence, the auto-pause/auto-resume. In other words, I think there's something fundamentally wrong with the DTS and its communication protocol. I say this because my Garmin works perfectly fine when synced with the GSC-10. But then apparently some people are not having any problems with their DTS at all . . . which really has me no closer to narrowing down whether the problem is my Garmin, or my DTS.
In my latest communication with Garmin support, they recommended I reformat the Edge . . . but I have to use a Windows computer to do it, and I don't own one, so not sure how I'm going to manage that. Anyways, they said that if I still experienced the problem after reformatting the Edge, they'd send out a replacement. I don't think reformatting it will do anything, but it'll be interesting to see if a replacement unit performs any better (and might answer the question as to whether the problem is Garmin, or the DTS).
@DonBjr: I'm using a Garmin Edge 500.
@VeeArSix, @obed7, & @Ragriz: out of curiosity, what model bike and what frame size?
@Munk69: to be clear, are you using a DuoTrap, or a DuoTrap S?
02-07-15, 08:45 AM
#20
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@RNAV has me more interested in this than I was alone. I have the same issue, 56cm Emonda with DTS and Garmin 800. I however had the issue on my last bike as well, R3 using Garmin speed/cadence sensor. Those only occurred in WV and I assumed it was a GPS signal issue? Now I'm curious as to how often this is actually happening as im sure I miss some of the drops while riding?
02-07-15, 06:04 PM
#21
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I have the same problem, but it seems it is not limited to Duo-Trap. See the picture how my chart looked like.
I used Suunto Ambit 2s and GCS-10
The problem was that the watch had setting for speed+cadence sensor, but the sensor not pick a speed magnet consistently.
I have re-installed the magnet, and moved the sensor a little closer, then the problem disappeared.
I understand that adjusting the sensor position is not an option with Duo-Trap, but maybe better magnet, like rare earth magnets fro hobby store will help? you need to be creative to attach it to your spoke.
02-07-15, 07:54 PM
#22
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My speed track doesn't look like that. It doesn't have long drops to zero. Instead, the speed fluctuates between say 6mph and the steady 20-ish I'm actually going.
I did try a different spoke magnet, but I couldn't say whether it was stronger or not. In any case, it didn't make a difference.
I did try a different spoke magnet, but I couldn't say whether it was stronger or not. In any case, it didn't make a difference.
02-11-15, 06:18 PM
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Add me to the list of users with the same issue. Emonda SLR frame with the Duo Trap S and a Garmin 500. Since day 1 I've had the issue of the auto pause then start again while I'm riding at a good speed well above the auto-pause set speed. This same Garmin set up for a different bike with the original Duo Trap works fine. It also works fine on a 3rd bike using a Garmin Speed/Cadence sensor.
Checked and made sure my spoke magnet is tight and not moving and is positioned within spec. The same wheel set and spoke magnet works perfectly on the other bike with the original Duo Trap. I even tried moving the spoke magnet around a few mm at a time to see if that made a difference. None.
I was beginning to think it was just with the Garmin 500 and the new Duo Trap S, but from the input on this forum it looks to be showing up with other devices as well.
I hope there is a solution if something if found as the root cause.
Checked and made sure my spoke magnet is tight and not moving and is positioned within spec. The same wheel set and spoke magnet works perfectly on the other bike with the original Duo Trap. I even tried moving the spoke magnet around a few mm at a time to see if that made a difference. None.
I was beginning to think it was just with the Garmin 500 and the new Duo Trap S, but from the input on this forum it looks to be showing up with other devices as well.
I hope there is a solution if something if found as the root cause.
02-12-15, 10:07 AM
#24
Senior Member
I am starting to wonder if it is something in the construction of the SLR series frames causing signal interference. Unless I am mistaken, it sounds like the only people having problems are on Emonda SLRs.
02-12-15, 07:53 PM
#25
Flyin' under the radar
Thread Starter
From what I've seen thus far, I have a larger frame size than anyone who says they don't have problems. The folks who say everything is fine have small (i.e. sub 56cm) frames. I'm beginning to wonder if there's a transmission distance threshold that 56cm and larger frames breach for the DTS. But then Trek said they get an Edge 500 to work with my bike, so who knows.
Garmin is sending me a replacement Edge 500 under warranty . . . pretty cool of them to help me out with this. They had me delete my settings folder (no change), and then reformat the device (no change), and then said they were going to send me a replacement. I should receive the new Edge 500 in a few days and will post my results.