alloo

https://www.treehugger.com/bikes/stu...AblTbQgLUDc66k

linberl

It just depends on how you use your e-bike. I rode today with my adult son, PAS at a very low level, stepped my gearing up two cogs from my normal analog setting, and kept my usual cadence. It was a hard workout, I was sweating, just going faster but definitely putting in the effort. If you just hold the throttle, then there's no exercise - but for some folks that throttle bike is their car, period. They don't want exercise, they just want to get from A to B. But if you want exercise with an e-bike you can definitely get it.

momsonherbike

Andrea didn't coin the "analog bike" term - lots of us have been using that nomenclature for years. Probably long before she was old enough to actually throw a leg over an ebike.

Since this study took place in Europe, in countries that have the infrastructure to support a bike culture, and more population that choses to travel by bike to work or for economy sake (gas is very expensive compared to the US, and electric vehicles are still in the early phases of takeover), and distances to places are (or appear to be) shorter - it isn't surprising that ebikes are prolific enough to do a finding on whether people get as much exercise riding an ebike vs an analog.

And, as linberl stated, it comes down to the type of ebike used. One powered by a pedalelec system means the rider has to pedal, and those bikes only give power when they feel human power applied. So there's a straight line correlation: power applied = forward movement on both types of bikes - the only difference is the ebike targets its electric power into "getting there faster". Getting up a hill is the same for both riders - you need to push the pedals and downshift. The ebike will get you up the hill faster, while the analog bike requires a judicious gearing and steady grind. Both riders will sweat, but the ebike rider will sweat less, and thus have more energy to go farther. So we're lead to believe.

On the flip side, the ebike is a heavy beast, and I've had analog bike fly past me with virtually no effort from their riders. I'd have to work harder to keep up with them because of the amount of weight my bike is pushing. And if I run out of battery....

So I guess it all evens out in the wash.

Heading out to ride my bike now...

Doc_Wui

Ebike riders can burn as much calories as analog riders, but most don't. Many do burn a lot more than they would have sitting at home.

linberl

It all depends on the e-bike. My bike with battery and motor is 23.5 lbs. That's a Bike Friday with a OneMotor kit. The bike is barely 19 lbs when I remove the kit (which I do when I carry the bike up stairs to Bart or to just ride analog). I do think commercial e-bikes will continue to get lighter as time goes on. Either the batteries will drop in weight (thanks to electric car research) or they will go modular. The battery on my system is 2.5 lbs so I can easily carry a couple in my bag to swap out for more range; I don't need a huge battery on the actual bike. I would not be surprised to see e-bikes in the same weight range as analog hybrids as the standard, minimal weight penalty. That's important because I sure as heck would not want to get stuck with one of those behemoth models if I ran out of juice...and have to pedal a 60 lb monster home. Electric cars are getting longer range and e-bikes will get lighter. I'm waiting for the hydrogen fuel cell bikes, lol.

linberl

This guy explains it way better than I can - it is what you do with your e-bike that matters. https://electricbikereport.com/electric-bike-cheating/
Riding yesterday was really a revelation for me. I actually pushed myself harder than I do when I ride analog.

momsonherbike

Ebike #1 (converted 1991 21 speed steel hybrid) has a 250w hub and thumb throttle only. 20 mile battery weighs 4.5 lbs. the hub weighs 6 lbs which makes the bike weigh 50lbs (honest weight as I weighed it myself on scales). If I carry the extra 20 mile battery, it adds another 4.5 lbs to the bike total. Add water bottles etc, and the cruising weight is about 60lbs.

By contrast my road bike weighs 19 lbs without the water bottles.

Ebike #2 is a 2019 8 speed (internal gearing with carbon belt) Giant LaFree E+1. Pedal assist, aluminum build. Battery is a 500w and has 63 mile range. Motor is continuous 250w with a 500w max draw. I suspect the bike weighs close to what Ebike #1 weighs because it feels the same lifting it to put it inside the car.

Which do I like better and which makes me actually ride? Both have their different uses and I love both equally, but only the new ebike makes me ride start to finish. The old one allows me to ride free just on the throttle, treating it like a mini motorcycle, but when I'm not on the throttle, it's like riding a loaded beach bike. Heavy and slow, and hard on the knees. The new ebike is quick and efficient, but demands you participate.

Which makes me ride harder? They both do about the same actually. Because I can't hold in the thumb throttle indefinitely, most of the time I'm riding analog on Ebike #1 ,and just using the motor to catch up, or surmount hills. In Ebike #2 , I keep the power button on "Normal" which still assists to an average degree, until I get to a hill or run into headwind, at which point I open the power control to provide more juice. But with Ebike #2 the power is always on. In the background yes, but still actively engaged.

I love Ebike #1 because it still looks like a traditional cromoly steel bike - clean and svelte. The hub drive is very small and chromed, so slides under the visible radar, while the battery is hidden by a set of panniers.

I love Ebike #2 because of the silent motor integrated into the pedals, the carbon belt, the 63 mile range battery, and the lovely retro cruiser look. Once again the battery is hidden by a pair of colorful panniers.

Whatever way you look at it, as long as the ebike gets you out on the road with a smile on your face, and mitigates any past injuries by aiding one in going down the road, its a definite win-win.

momsonherbike

We have an electric car - the 2018 Nissan Leaf which gets a 151 mile range from a 40kw battery. The 2019 Leaf+ with all the options and higher trim gets 215 miles off a 63kw battery, but is lots heavier. The lesser trims get 225 miles. Yet the 2018 40kw gets the same 151 mileage irregardless of the trim. So there still is a tradeoff regarding battery weight per miles available. What is happening right now is the packs are being made denser with more cells to provide longer range.

What will be the next big step is when the gurus of technology finally figure how how to reliably build the solid state battery so it is economically feasible to use for transportation. Once that happens, we'll have 100+ mile ebike battery that weight less than 1 lb. Won't my new ebike look like a dinosaur then!

momsonherbike

Thanks! That was a really good little article.

KraneXL

What is -- an exaggerated statistical statement not based in real world context?Its not just a question of calories burned, but the intensity over time. An e-bike is fine as a "transition" from car to analog bike. But you should never go the other way with the exception of some significant physical ailment. Exercise strengthens muscles and connective tissue. But if you're being held together by pins and wires, there only so much stress you can put on your body. These are the folks that can justify e-bikes. I'm taking strictly about bikes for health and fitness. Not for transportation.

linberl

Read the article i posted - his experience is that he is getting essentially the same exercise analog and digital. And yesterday my experience was that I actually got more exercise than analog. The low PAS speed forces me to gear up substantially to not spin out and that requires more effort from me than riding analog, plus I rode about twice what my normal distance is. Even if I got half the exercise during my digital phase (just over half the ride) I still got more exercise than I normally would have on a regular ride due to the distance (not even counting the intensity). I definitely would NOT have gone 34 miles if I had no motor, my longest analog rides are typically 20-22 miles max. But we've had this discussion before, lol, and we will never agree. And, of course, why is it you think anyone has to justify an e-bike? AFAIK you nor anyone else are empowered as the "acceptable bike police".

KraneXL

You're correct. Carry on.

Roccorides

I get far more exercise per unit of time and per unit of distance if I'm clipped in. Some ebikes are set up that way, most are not.

But the point has to be made repeatedly that for many ebike riders the ebike is not replacing a push bike, it's replacing a car or some other relatively effortless mode of transportation. You can't assume when you see someone on an ebike that they're getting less exercise than they would without the electricity. They might be getting much more.

momsonherbike

I guess to each their own. My ebikes are not "transitionals", but rather stand alone under their own merit as recreationally encouraging and helpful.

I went from analog to electric because I found my desire to ride a simple bike to be "dying" in a sense that, while I still wanted to enjoy a bike ride periodically, I wanted to do so without paying a huge price in pain or discomfort later. I'm not being held together by pins and wire, nor do I have any diseases nor am I on any medication at all. But being mid 60s with a long background of extreme sports means I feel quite entitled to enjoy my recreations as I see fit. And an analog bike no longer is part of that regime. My ebikes have turned out to be better partners in taking up some of the slack that previously had me electing not to ride - the hills, the headwind, the grind. You can't get away from them when you ride, and I had become tired of the analog bike's build that required me to do all the work myself, whether it wore me out mentally and/or physically, or put me on the ground walking instead. When it started to add injury to insult, and I realized it was no longer any fun at all, is when I began to look around for better.

Finding an active partner in the form of an electric bike was the answer. It kept me riding, put a smile back on my face, and gave my body time to build back up what the analog bike had taken away.

Do I want to go back to analog? Nope. Have zero desire to do so. I'm happier with an active partner that says "allow me to help" when I need it, yet defers to me and my decisions at all times. This is now my chosen wheeled method of recreation, and fitness. I do see my body and legs becoming stronger each day because the ebike is fun to ride. And I ride everyday because my ebike calls to me, encouraging me to hop aboard and enjoy a grand spin in a pleasant voice that the passive, disinterested analog bike never had...and never will.

I'm sticking with my ebike. Real world is this: I smile, enjoy the ride, and am going further and longer than ever before. I get the benefit of the gain without any unrelenting pain. No more analog for me. Those days are now long gone.

linberl

Yesterday I was feeling super fit after pushing so hard on my bike with the motor, so I went out "analog" and rode in a higher gear. Well, last night I couldn't sleep because my knee hurt so bad and I couldn't turn over. Stupid me. Will probably be off the bike today, icing. Delusions of grandeur, lol. I believe the difference is that unmotored I really stress my knee every time I take off from a stop; those first couple revolutions are really hard on my joint until I get some momentum. That, apparently, is something the e-bike offsets. I suppose I could probably drop down 3 gears every time I am going to stop and then upshift, but what a pain to remember and do every single block I ride. So - when I want to ride hard from now on it will be with the motor in higher gears, and when I want to ride analog, I will remember I need to pootle along in an easier gear. There's nothing like pain to make you not want to get out and ride. There's a difference between being tired/sore from effort versus pain.

momsonherbike

Boy, do I hear you loud and clear! I'm doing the exact same thing - backing off from the epower and riding in higher gears because my legs are getting stronger. Not going to go full analog - I know better than that - but today could feel my right knee getting a bit grumpy from having to shoulder more work in pushing the bike along

Have to remember - the muscles can and do get stronger, but not the joints.

No need for me to ice because I got the heads-up at the first few twinges to use my gears more, but I'll be more careful when I bike tomorrow to NOT constantly push off on the right leg, and to pay closer attention to my gearing in conjunction with the power levels. I also discovered that if I set my pedals up at a halt or dismount so that my left leg is engaged to push off, the motor has kicked in to help and is actively engaging by the time my right leg is on the down stroke. Also when I coast I have to ensure my right leg is resting in a downward extended position with the pedal at the bottom of the arc, rather than up in the air, bent, with the pedal at the top of the arc. The latter is an automatic unconscious position I have that needs to be reprogrammed in my brain to stop stressing my right knee joint.

So much to pay attention to posture-wise while out for a ride, especially since I stop and start a lot due to stopping to pick up road litter as I ride along. (As a result our local roads are virtually spotless!)

I hope your knee feels better fast so you can get back to cycling. And don't be afraid to use the motor to facilitate your starts. Better to use a bit of electric help than suffer a knee in pain!

linberl

Some good tips there, thanks. I never feel pain while I'm actually riding, I kind of wish I did as it would signal me to change up. My osteo kicks in late at night in bed when I'm trying to sleep and I realize I can't move my leg without my knee screaming at me. It's actually gotten better than it was as I spin now when riding analog (except yesterday) and easy pressure with high cadence doesn't hurt me. I just got back from a ride with motor, hope that didn't exacerbate it, but I hate not riding at all. I'll try those postural tips - might help a lot. thx.

restlessswind

This old argument will never die. I had a schmuck pass me and stated he was all "HUMAN" power, as if I were some sissy.
I have a 18 mile one-way commute. Summer afternoons are on average 100° F. I would ride my analog bike to work, no big deal, but that ride home....I was done, finished, kaput for the rest of the day. If not for a pedalec, I'd have to just drive.
Commute via car = 30 min
Commute via ebike = 50 min,
Commute via analog bike = 80 min

linberl

What I will never understand is why anyone on a bike cares what another person on a bike is doing (as long as they aren't dangerous). Do I care if you ride using your throttle all day long...no...it doesn't affect me. I'm still gonna do my thing and ride using PAS when I choose and work as hard as I can. If you're on a bike, riding any way at all, you're not driving. That's plenty good for me.

DrIsotope

I think e-Bike riders can get as much exercise, but most do not. The lion's share of e-Bikers I see out there are soft pedaling if at all. They're using it like a moped. Beyond simple observations,

Physical activity levels, measured in Metabolic Equivalent Task minutes per week (MET min/wk), were similar among e-bikers and cyclists (4463 vs. 4085). E-bikers reported significantly longer trip distances for both e-bike (9.4 km) and bicycle trips (8.4 km) compared to cyclists for bicycle trips (4.8 km), as well as longer daily travel distances for e-bike than cyclists for bicycle (8.0 vs. 5.3 km per person, per day, respectively).

This has to be a study recorded in some European urban/metro area-- I mean, the average "analog cyclist" traveled 4.8km per trip? Just under 3 miles?

I'm not a commuter, I'm a recreational cyclist. As such, my average trip for 2019 is 64km, with an average of 323km per week.

I don't know about MET minutes, but I average ~7,000kJ total work per week. I feel like this is probably outside the e-Bike curve.

AlanK

Since this is a study of European e-bikers I know it should be taken with some NaCl, but it gives credibility to some of the heated discussions I've had with ardent analog cyclists. I've argued e-bikes make cycling more viable for more people. Since e-bikes extend the bike's range many cyclists will ride farther for about as long as they would on a standard bike.

E-bikes are also a more viable replacement for cars. An e-bike with a 50 mile range means trips of that range are viable for most rider; that's simply not the case for many conventional bike riders.

MarcusT

I'm still young enough to use my Emtb for climbs. I average about 1,000 meter climbs when I go out. I know this won't last forever, but it takes me places I normally would not go. And, yes it is still quite the workout.

MNebiker

Riding an ebike is certainly not the same a riding an analog for the same distance. But when age or health issues make an ebike the only alternative it is certainly more exercise that you will get sitting at home. My ebike makes riding still possible for me and that has more benefit that just exercise. It is good "therapy." I get out, enjoy the beautiful trails and changing seasons, remain active, and yes - get some exercise.

2old

Great to hear that ebikes have provided motivation and mobility (probably lots of other benefits) to individuals. However, I'm much more exhausted after riding my MTB than eMTB. It's my fault for not working as hard on the eMTB, but those are the facts.

linberl

yes, it all depends on how you use it. When I am riding for exercise, I will use my motor intermittently for hills and headwinds still at the lowest level I can manage. It's about the same exercise because I will go further than if I was cut off by the hills on my ride. When I ride for transportation, there's still some exercise but I don't want to arrive sweaty so it's mostly just spinning. I posted an article above where a guy actually measured using power meter and heart rate meter; interesting results.