How to not get dropped in the rolling hills
11-11-20, 01:54 AM
#51
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HIIT. Sprints. That's what worked for me. I had decent base fitness for long steady rides, but couldn't sprint worth a darn. Now I'm semi-okay for an old guy.
Our group rides are on roller coaster terrain and I always got gapped on the many short, steep hillettes because everyone loafed on flats, coasted on downhills, then hammered on every climb. The only people who ever pedaled steadily were the folks riding fixed.
But our climbs are short, maybe 50-400 yards long at most, anywhere from 3%-12%. So I worked on sprints of 30-60 seconds, mostly on a nearby loop with false flats, and a series of short steep rollers that are the worst of the worst examples of the entire terrain in north central Texas.
Took awhile to feel any difference. I didn't get significantly faster. But I did recover faster, so I was ready for those tricky bits with three or more short, steep hillettes in a row over a half-mile to mile distance.
And I quit coasting or loafing on downhills. I'd push ahead of the group so I could catch the tail end as they passed on the climbs. That would drive more disciplined groups crazy and probably get me uninvited, but some of our local groups are total anarchy, free for all impromptu crits, everybody trying to drop everybody else, so the only way to keep up is to use the same tactics. I'd still get gapped because I won't blast through red lights, while some of them do. But that's a whole nuther can of worms.
Our group rides are on roller coaster terrain and I always got gapped on the many short, steep hillettes because everyone loafed on flats, coasted on downhills, then hammered on every climb. The only people who ever pedaled steadily were the folks riding fixed.
But our climbs are short, maybe 50-400 yards long at most, anywhere from 3%-12%. So I worked on sprints of 30-60 seconds, mostly on a nearby loop with false flats, and a series of short steep rollers that are the worst of the worst examples of the entire terrain in north central Texas.
Took awhile to feel any difference. I didn't get significantly faster. But I did recover faster, so I was ready for those tricky bits with three or more short, steep hillettes in a row over a half-mile to mile distance.
And I quit coasting or loafing on downhills. I'd push ahead of the group so I could catch the tail end as they passed on the climbs. That would drive more disciplined groups crazy and probably get me uninvited, but some of our local groups are total anarchy, free for all impromptu crits, everybody trying to drop everybody else, so the only way to keep up is to use the same tactics. I'd still get gapped because I won't blast through red lights, while some of them do. But that's a whole nuther can of worms.
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11-11-20, 05:34 AM
#53
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I seriously question either of those. The endurance aspect, the fueling aspect, the specificity... not that some extreme masochist couldn't specifically train go accomplish that, but there's no way on Earth that's even remotely typical.
I once did 3 hours at ~89% and it broke me for a week plus, and I spent about two months building up to that.
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11-11-20, 05:39 AM
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9.5-10 w/kg are what the good, punchy cat 1s do around here (many places). For the OP that'd be close to 800w. Definitely something trainable, but as has been mentioned multiple times, race craft (positioning, time spent in the wind, etc) is even more important, and if it's later in the ride, race craft coupled with fatigue resistance is what matters most.
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11-11-20, 06:50 AM
#55
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Interesting that no-one has mentioned zone 2 training to build your lactate threshold. Google Inigo San Millan. All kinds of interviews worth listening to.
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11-11-20, 07:00 AM
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If you want to increase threshold, you have to ride at threshold.
With other life responsibilities, riding around at z2 all the time is a total waste of time from a performance standpoint.
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11-11-20, 07:30 AM
#57
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If the original posters FTP is truly 360, threshold is not the issue. Building the lactate clearance may be a key part in his success on the rides that he enjoys. Inigo San Millan, coach to Tadej Pogacar certainly is an expert on Lactate clearance, and he clearly states it is key to success.
Just another opinion for the OP to look into.
Just another opinion for the OP to look into.
11-11-20, 07:50 AM
#58
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If the original posters FTP is truly 360, threshold is not the issue. Building the lactate clearance may be a key part in his success on the rides that he enjoys. Inigo San Millan, coach to Tadej Pogacar certainly is an expert on Lactate clearance, and he clearly states it is key to success.
Just another opinion for the OP to look into.
Just another opinion for the OP to look into.
11-11-20, 08:03 AM
#60
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If the original posters FTP is truly 360, threshold is not the issue. Building the lactate clearance may be a key part in his success on the rides that he enjoys. Inigo San Millan, coach to Tadej Pogacar certainly is an expert on Lactate clearance, and he clearly states it is key to success.
Just another opinion for the OP to look into.
Just another opinion for the OP to look into.
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11-11-20, 08:11 AM
#61
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My secret for not getting dropped on rolling hills? I ride solo. One hundred percent effective.
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11-11-20, 08:23 AM
#62
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1 min at 125% is nothing. That's the intensity for 3-5 minutes for a punchy cat 1-2. For what it's worth, my 3-4 minute vo2 workouts repeats mid season are at ~128%. One minute type efforts are typically done at ~200% ftp, with full-gas one minute efforts on group rides eclipsing that.
9.5-10 w/kg are what the good, punchy cat 1s do around here (many places). For the OP that'd be close to 800w. Definitely something trainable, but as has been mentioned multiple times, race craft (positioning, time spent in the wind, etc) is even more important, and if it's later in the ride, race craft coupled with fatigue resistance is what matters most.
9.5-10 w/kg are what the good, punchy cat 1s do around here (many places). For the OP that'd be close to 800w. Definitely something trainable, but as has been mentioned multiple times, race craft (positioning, time spent in the wind, etc) is even more important, and if it's later in the ride, race craft coupled with fatigue resistance is what matters most.
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11-11-20, 09:20 AM
#63
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https://peterattiamd.com/inigosanmillan/
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/z...ance-athletes/
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11-11-20, 10:07 AM
#64
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I meant that's a fall-back position for those of use who for one reason or another, can't manage longer weekday rides. Holding steady at 75% for most of an hour is surprisingly effective in terms of aerobic adaptation. On outdoor rides there's that constant power variation. There's a "flat" road near me where my power goes up and down ~15% from my target if I hold the cadence constant, just from those tiny undulations.
My guess is that you have been a competitive rower and thus competing in under 7 minute events. That gave you a huge anaerobic engine for which you probably had a genetic propensity. As others have said, now you need to build an aerobic engine to match. I'm in sort of the same boat as it were, as I've been doing hilly rides with better climbers than I for 25 years. I used to be able to outsprint all of them. It's time for me to take a step back and build up a stronger aerobic engine this fall and winter. So that's all I've been doing: 75% FTP on my rollers and outdoors, in and out of saddle. The high end comes back quickly for me, the low end is a long slog, not as much fun. Posters here diagnosed my problem, whether they realized it or not.
My guess is that you have been a competitive rower and thus competing in under 7 minute events. That gave you a huge anaerobic engine for which you probably had a genetic propensity. As others have said, now you need to build an aerobic engine to match. I'm in sort of the same boat as it were, as I've been doing hilly rides with better climbers than I for 25 years. I used to be able to outsprint all of them. It's time for me to take a step back and build up a stronger aerobic engine this fall and winter. So that's all I've been doing: 75% FTP on my rollers and outdoors, in and out of saddle. The high end comes back quickly for me, the low end is a long slog, not as much fun. Posters here diagnosed my problem, whether they realized it or not.
I hate rolling hills like that, and they hate me.
It's power that matters, but if you're going anaerobic too many times you'll blow up. If your FTP is 360W, a 2 hour race could be done at an average of 340W (-5% for every double of time.) On the flat part take short pulls and conserve your power as much as possible. Try not to needlessly exceed your FTP too many times. Make the bigger guys do the work and tuck in behind them. Your already at a disadvantage against bigger guys with with same FTP.
Try to carry as much momentum downhill as possible and just before you hit the saddle point shift to a small gear and spin like crazy. Don't wait to shift and don't not pedal downhill hill to the saddle point, you'll loose too much momentum. It's better to shift early and spin at 110rpm or higher until you hit the grade. Try to spin up at high cadence and keep your butt in the saddle.
A 0.5mile 7% grade should take around 3 minutes at 340W, so hill intervals spinning at this power in the saddle would be good drills to get your brain used to the idea.
Who ever said it was all downhill after 40y?
It's power that matters, but if you're going anaerobic too many times you'll blow up. If your FTP is 360W, a 2 hour race could be done at an average of 340W (-5% for every double of time.) On the flat part take short pulls and conserve your power as much as possible. Try not to needlessly exceed your FTP too many times. Make the bigger guys do the work and tuck in behind them. Your already at a disadvantage against bigger guys with with same FTP.
Try to carry as much momentum downhill as possible and just before you hit the saddle point shift to a small gear and spin like crazy. Don't wait to shift and don't not pedal downhill hill to the saddle point, you'll loose too much momentum. It's better to shift early and spin at 110rpm or higher until you hit the grade. Try to spin up at high cadence and keep your butt in the saddle.
A 0.5mile 7% grade should take around 3 minutes at 340W, so hill intervals spinning at this power in the saddle would be good drills to get your brain used to the idea.
Who ever said it was all downhill after 40y?
My FTP now could be lower but as you said (and I agree) generally power is not the issue.
11-11-20, 10:27 AM
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Did I do it right? I will print this and put it on my basement door so I see it every time I get out for a ride.
By the way thanks to everyone for the AMAZING amount of response. I have a long to-do list and will share the results as the season progresses.
By the way thanks to everyone for the AMAZING amount of response. I have a long to-do list and will share the results as the season progresses.
11-11-20, 10:29 AM
#66
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I'll have results from my AeT work maybe in February. 
It's a slow process..
It's a slow process..
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11-11-20, 10:34 AM
#67
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The mistake I see triguys \ TT'rs make is that they spend all day at the same effort. Intervals, over and under, recover makes you faster.
11-11-20, 10:42 AM
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It is not really a mistake. For the type of event they are training for, that is where their focus needs to be. Those events require a steady output, which is different than the needs of a criterium racer, as an extreme example.
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11-11-20, 10:56 AM
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If you do that, get a set of rollers with resistance. Plain rollers, even small drum rollers, are really only good for recovery. Get used to them by riding in a doorway. After a couple months, graduate to doing it next to a wall or post. I think I've come off 4 times in 20+ years. Worst injury has been a pedal cut on my ankle. That said, my rollers are set up where there's nothing to the left of me that could hurt me. Some people set up next to a bed. Two 24" box fans are mandatory.
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11-11-20, 11:21 AM
#70
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True but they will not get stronger. You need to challenge your body to make gains.
11-11-20, 11:59 AM
#71
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for tri guys, "stronger" is probably secondary to steady-state tempo at pace that they can recover/fuel for the up-coming run. These guys win or lose in the run, not on the bike. 4-5 hrs in zone 3 on the bike is their game.
11-11-20, 12:24 PM
#72
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when Cavendish was young, many sport directors said his VO2max was too low for world Tour, he was a joke. Many brushed him off. But then he became one of the most prolific flat-stage winners of all time. So VO2 and FTP ain't be all end all factors; yes FTP is important for steady-state TT, but for a rolling punchy group ride, you already have adequate FTP. Now what you need is 1) racecraft smart, and 2) short burst power.
But I also think you're a natural slow-twitcher too, so you will be limited by genetics, but hey, don't we all.
11-11-20, 12:44 PM
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Some win or lose in the run. Others on the bike. And, probably, a few in the swim.
11-11-20, 12:59 PM
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I think you're missing the disconnect between elite and world tour riders and time-crunched amateur parents working full-time jobs...
11-11-20, 01:19 PM
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